Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[JudaicChristian]

I would not call anything scripture that came from the second century.

 

[Der Alte]

I would not call anything scripture that came from the second century.

Why should we care what you do or do not call scripture?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Why should we care what you do or do not call scripture?

The same to you. Where is that ignor list?

 

[XDanny18]

As real as real can get. There is no mention of that event being a parable at all. What other parables have actually used the names of people?

 

[Der Alte]

Why should we care what you do or do not call scripture?

The same to you. Where is that ignor list?

Unlike you, I don't give my opinion as being authoritative.

 

[Jig]

I agree that the stories found within the parables of Jesus are most likely a fictional construction. However, though the people never existed and the situation never happened, everything is still within the realm of possibility. It could have happened - it just didn't.

Jesus always referred to real locations and real geography. Can anyone, without referencing this parable (of the Rich Man and Lazarus), name one parable of Jesus that includes a false location or false geography?

I didn't think anyone would answer.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree that the stories found within the parables of Jesus are most likely a fictional construction. However, though the people never existed and the situation never happened, everything is still within the realm of possibility. It could have happened - it just didn't.

Jesus always referred to real locations and real geography. Can anyone, without referencing this parable (of the Rich Man and Lazarus), name one parable of Jesus that includes a false location or false geography?

Other than Luke 16 can you name any parable where Jesus named a specific location or geography?

 

[Jig]

Other than Luke 16 can you name any parable where Jesus named a specific location or geography?

You have missed the point of my question and my implied assertion. Jesus' never made up a parable that defied reality. All His parables have people doing various things at various places, but all are possible.

He speaks of mustard seeds, tares, sheep, leaven, money - all real things. He speaks of people eating, walking, talking, cheating, sowing - all real activities. He speaks of the ground, mountains, caves, seas - all true geographical realities.

His characters, may be fictional, but they are natural humans, male and female - true biological realities. His settings include towns, houses, boats, farms, mills - all relate to places that have a property of actuality.

All I'm saying is that the setting in this specific parable may point to an actual location - Hades. Though the Rich Man and Lazarus, and even their situation, may be fictional, the description of Hades may very well be real.

All of Jesus' other parables point to this conclusion.

 

[Lisa*Lisa]

It's definitely a parable.

 

[JudaicChristian]

It's definitely a parable.

Yahshua does not say that it is a parable, and there is no parabolic language used. Plus Hell was not a teaching of Judaism, but of Paganism and Gnosticism. Do you think Yahshua was introducing the belief in Hell to the people. I myself do not believe Yahshua was a Pagan or Gnostic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It's definitely a parable.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Taking the example of LittleLambofJesus, I though I could as well post links to studies or commentaries. There you go, about the Rich Man and Lazarus:

h t t p : / / w w w . t e n t m a k e r . o r g / a r t i c l e s / L a z a r u s - b y H u i e . h t m

Since I don't have enough posts, I cannot post links. So you'll have to delete all the spaces between the characters if you'll want to access it. Sorry. There is not other way, or at least I haven't found another way yet.

Again, sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks for that link

Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--glorious gospel--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ
Homepage

Commentary - The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

*snip*

Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him. Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke.

There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible. At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3).

Yahshua does not say that it is a parable, and there is no parabolic language used. Plus Hell was not a teaching of Judaism, but of Paganism and Gnosticism. Do you think Yahshua was introducing the belief in Hell to the people. I myself do not believe Yahshua was a Pagan or Gnostic.

Oh good grief!!!

 

[addo]

Where does it say that the rich man was evil and the poor man was righteous?

Actually, it is interesting to note that it nowhere says that. This is why we know it's a parable. There are no sins listed there. It seems that Lazarus was saved because he was poor and the rich man was lost because he was very very rich.

That doesn't make sense.

 

[addo]

As real as real can get. There is no mention of that event being a parable at all. What other parables have actually used the names of people?

This does not wark. Jesus often began his parables in the book of Luke with the phrase, “a certain...” See Luke 12:16; 13:6; 14:16; 15:11; 16:1; 19:11-12; 20:9 (KJV), and in the same way it begins in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus: "There was a certain rich man..." Luke 16. Obviously it was a parable.

Why did He name a man there? Because it is a parable and it is highly symbolic. Lazarus represents the Gentiles and the rich man the Jews. Lazarus means "Whom God helps".

G2976
Λάζαρος
Lazaros
Thayer Definition:
Lazarus = “whom God helps” (a form of the Hebrew name Eleazar)
​

God was going to help the Gentiles. I'll explain more later.

Yahshua does not say that it is a parable, and there is no parabolic language used.

If by "parabolic language" you mean symbolism ... there is a lot.

And Jesus begins this story like with most of His parables (at least most of His parable in Luke): "There was a certain man..."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually, it is interesting to note that it nowhere says that. This is why we know it's a parable. There are no sins listed there. It seems that Lazarus was saved because he was poor and the rich man was lost because he was very very rich.

That doesn't make sense.

Ya think he is any relation to this "unidentifed" man in Matt 22:11?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7460817/
Matthew 22 and the "Man" not clothed for wedding feast

Matthew 22:11 And entering yet the King to gaze of the ones reclining, he saw there a Man not in-slipped cothing of wedding-feast
[Zeph 1:8/Luke 16:24]

 

[JudaicChristian]

Actually, it is interesting to note that it nowhere says that. This is why we know it's a parable. There are no sins listed there. It seems that Lazarus was saved because he was poor and the rich man was lost because he was very very rich.

That doesn't make sense.

I agree. Why would Yahshua neglect the importance of righteousness? The belief in Hell has never been a teaching in Judaism. Is there any reason to believe that Yahshua was a Gnostic or a Pagan?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks to all who have contributed so far to this thread...

 

[Yab Yum]

All I'm saying is that the setting in this specific parable may point to an actual location - Hades. Though the Rich Man and Lazarus, and even their situation, may be fictional, the description of Hades may very well be real.

Likewise heaven may in fact be a literal mustard seed? Doesn't follow.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Likewise heaven may in fact be a literal mustard seed? Doesn't follow.

Or casting a literal mountain into the sea

Matthew 21:21 Answering the Jesus said to them "verily I am saying to ye, if ever ye may be having Faith and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree ye shall be doing, but even-ever to the Mountain, this ye may saying 'be being lifted up! and be being cast! into the Sea' it shall be becoming"
[Galatian 4:24,25/Revelation 8:8]

Reve 8:8 And the second Messenger trumpets and as-like a Mountain, great to fire burning, was cast into the Sea and became the third of the Sea blood
[Matthew 21:21/Galatian 4:24, 25/Hebrew 12:18]

The Mountain in Matt 21 question - Christian Forums
The Mountain in Matt 21 question

 

[Der Alte]

Likewise heaven may in fact be a literal mustard seed? Doesn't follow.

Is there a vss./passage where heaven is compared to a mustard seed? If not, what is the relevance?

Or casting a literal mountain into the sea [ . . . ]

There is a well known maxim about Bible interpretation. If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Since both Rabbinical schools in 1st century Israel, Hillel and Shammai, taught a literal hell where the wicked were punished forever, we can assume that Jesus was referring to that place and that is what his disciples, and the Jews if they were still eavesdropping, would have understood.