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All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them... Mat. 13:34.
Luke 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them." 3 So he told them this parable ... 8 "Or ... 11 And he said A CERTAIN MAN ... 16:1 There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN ... 19 There was A CERTAIN RICH MAN ...
well, evidentally these characters must have been within earshot of JesusIn Luke 16 Jesus was NOT speaking to the throngs but his disciples see 16:1 and 17:1. I would suggest you more carefully consider your arguments.
Der Alter said:In Luke 16 Jesus was NOT speaking to the throngs but his disciples see 16:1 and 17:1. I would suggest you more carefully consider your arguments.
well, evidentally these characters must have been within earshot of Jesus
Luke 16:14 And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding him,
15 and he said to them, `Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God;
Then they shouldn't have butted inAnd your point is? Jesus' intended audience was his disciples, not the Pharisees or the throngs as YY said.
Are the interpretations of the ECFs you set forth absolutely the one and only official dogma of the church with respect to the interpretation of this passage?
Indeed it would seem that some people have different designs on this particular passage
The mere fact that all the ECFs you cite understand the passage to signify different things tells us something. Ireneaeus says continued existence. Tertullian says corporeality. Cyprian says punishments in mouth and tongue. Methodius says bodily form arises before resurrection.
Then they shouldn't have butted in
Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
Matt 23:33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
Ezekiel 39:12 And house of Israel bury them so that to purify/cleanse the Land seven months. And all of people of the Land bury them.
OK. But John the Baptist also said Jesus was the lamb of God but not that Jesus was "like" the lamb of God. Does that mean Jesus is going to grow wool and sprout horns? Yes I'm being facetious. Point is though when do we know something is a metaphor and when do we know it isn't? How do we know for sure the parable isn't about the Pharisees?
You will observe that I said "specific location or geography."
Did you catch one of my earlier posts where I mentioned parables that included geography and locations such as mountains, vineyards, distant countries, fields, lakes...?
Yes. This is my point. Jesus never seemed to tell a parable that included fake and/or impossible locations/things/events/etc.
Could the parable of the Prodigal Son have happened in real life? Yes. Though it probably didn't.
Could the parable of the hidden treasure have happened in real life? Yes. Though it probably didn't.
The ten virgins? Yes.
Etc.
[/B]
All parables, are ordinary, every day, realistic events and objects that could be readily understood.
"It's completely unknown therefore it must be real" doesn't follow.The entire scene in the "grave" is totally outside the realm of human experience. And if this is a parable, then it is the ONLY one in the Bible where Jesus based his teaching on something totally unknown to his audience.
The fact that Lazarus is actually named gives strong evidence this is a true story.
Further very strong evidence that Luke 16 is not a parable, is that an actual historical person is named, Abraham. The rich man addresses him as, father Abraham. Jesus could legitimately use the ordinary, everyday actions of anonymous men, widows, shepherds, absent landowners, etc., to clarify or illustrate Biblical truths. Throughout history people have lost and found sheep and coins, farmers have sown seed, sons have squandered their fathers money and returned home in shame, etc. But, since Jesus did not identify the story as a parable, make any other disclaimer, or ever explain the story to his disciples, if Abraham was not in that specific place, and did not speak the specific words Jesus quotes, then Jesus was lying. Jesus is not a liar.
Even conceding arguendo Luke 16:19- 31, might be a parable, it really makes no difference. Those who assert that it is a parable are still wrong! Without exception all legitimate parables are based upon REAL ordinary, every day events, NOT myths, legends, or the unknown.
"Can the passage about Lazarus have happened in real life? No. Therefore it must not be a parable, it must refer to real, yes real things".
Are Armegeddon and Gog-Magog literally places/entities?
I've never seen Satan going around picking up seeds from the ground.
"It's completely unknown therefore it must be real" doesn't follow.
Mark 4:15 (New International Version)
15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Unless it's a parable.Again, I've never seen Satan picking up seeds.
Like Satan picking up seeds.
Are Armegeddon and Gog-Magog literally places/entities?
Reve 16:16 And he together-assembled/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn
[Reve 20:8]
Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea.
[Reve 16:14]
http://www.christianforums.com/t7413416/
Armegeddon and Gog-Magog same event?
Thks.They were at the time the Bible was written. הר מגידו Harmegiddo, i.e. the mountain of Megiddo is approximately 25 miles (40 km) west of the southern tip of the Sea of Galilee. Gog and Magog גּוֹג וּמָגוֹג are identified by Josephus as the Scythians.
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