Rhyming hymns and watered down theology

[OuterWater]

I was listening to Gregorian chant the other day as I often do and I had a thought about hymnography in English speaking countries. While some Gregorian Chants had rhyming elements, like Tantum Ergo, most of them that I can think of do not. In the same way, Orthodox chants do not focus on rhyming, so much as conveying correct theology and worship. Almost all Protestant hymns (in English anyway) tend to rhyme, and of course, we know, that their theology is all over the place. There is a tendancy also, I have noticed, to despise a large number of the hymns in...say....the Gather hymnal as watered down and touchy feely. Do you think that this is a result of people feeling the need to sing hymns that rhyme, which limits the theological vocabulary that can be used, or do you think this is a symptom of something else? Or am I completely off base and know nothing and need to shut up? If the latter please say so

 

[OuterWater]

I just realized that I have committed the common faux pas of excluding the Eastern Catholics, who sing hymns that are virtually identical to the Orthodox. My apologies to Eastern folks.

 

[LoveCereal]

I don't think you need to shut up.

For me, songs/hymns that rhyme are more pleasing to the ear than songs that don't. I think that's why most songs in general, Christian or secular, contain some sort of rhyme scheme. I dont think a rhyme scheme is overly limiting either...the song creator just has to let his/her creative juices flow to best communicate truth through song. Hymns can be both deeply true and meaningful, AND sound great!

 

[Azureknight 773]

I do not have any problem with them rhyming. It makes it much easier to memorize.

 

[OuterWater]

I think what I was wondering more was do you think that the need for rhyming hymns makes it more difficult to convey correct theology?

 

[Anhelyna]

I'm not sure there is an easy answer to this one

[ oh and apology accepted ]

We in the East have always expressed our theology in the Liturgy - just look at the text . I think it's the OCA who actually has published a book with the text of the DL on the left hand side and the right hand page has the verse from the Bible which has been used for that particular part of the text - it's fantastic Since Biblical verses rarely rhyme we just get on and chant them .

Now there isn't quite the same tradition in the West. Indeed hymns were used for teaching in the Protestant Churches as many could not read and having a text for a hymn that would rhyme , helped the hymn to sink in to their memories . I don't think they thought about correct theology to the same extent .

Some of the hymns I learnt as a child still come back if I hear the music . Is this a bad thing - I really don't know.

Mind you I do think that some of the old hymns are streets ahead of the modern ones

 

[LoveCereal]

I think what I was wondering more was do you think that the need for rhyming hymns makes it more difficult to convey correct theology?

No. There are rhyming songs that I'm sure contain heresy and other rhyming songs that contain perfectly orthodox theology.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

I think what I was wondering more was do you think that the need for rhyming hymns makes it more difficult to convey correct theology?

I am without clue how to connect these two points.

To me it's like saying:

If two trains are head toward each other a 30 mph, how many shingles does it take to roof the barn. ?

Maybe there's a connection but someone is going to have to explain it to me.

I mean, if rhyming schemes muddle the point of the message, how do you explain great poetry ?

 

[Fantine]

The songs in the Gather hymnal are much more similar to the Gregorian chanted psalms than the SATB rhyming hymns so popular among traditionalists.

Why?

The psalms are personal, emotional, sensitive cries of the heart.

And so, in that way, Gather hymns are far preferable.

 

[princess_ballet]

Are we honestly now discussing how songs are "bad" because they rhyme?

Why, why, why, why....

Does anyone honestly think God cares about this????

 

[OuterWater]

I am without clue how to connect these two points.

To me it's like saying:

If two trains are head toward each other a 30 mph, how many shingles does it take to roof the barn. ?

Maybe there's a connection but someone is going to have to explain it to me.

I mean, if rhyming schemes muddle the point of the message, how do you explain great poetry ?

As I said, this was just something that Gregorian chant made me think of, since much of it does not rhyme. I don't think that rhyming in and of itself negates proper Theology. That would make absolutely no sense. I was just wondering if the need to make something rhyme limits the potential Theological vocabulary that can be used, making it more difficult to get the proper Theology across. For example....consubstantial. That rhymes with....monumental.. .sacramental....soup with lentils. If you couldn't find a fitting rhyme for the word, you might try to water it down and just say "the same" to make it more pleasing to the ear.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There's this hymn I like...

God of Mercy and Compassion - YouTube

It's
-old / traditional
- (I'd say) moving
- "personal"
- rhymes

I think the problem with SOME of the new hymns is not the rhyming, but the lack of depth in theology. Like someone said, I don't want to sing to the sun, or the rain, I don't want to sing about "gathering", - but I want to worship God and grow in love for Him, humility, and virtue.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

As I said, this was just something that Gregorian chant made me think of, since much of it does not rhyme. I don't think that rhyming in and of itself negates proper Theology. That would make absolutely no sense. I was just wondering if the need to make something rhyme limits the potential Theological vocabulary that can be used, making it more difficult to get the proper Theology across. For example....consubstantial. That rhymes with....monumental.. .sacramental....soup with lentils. If you couldn't find a fitting rhyme for the word, you might try to water it down and just say "the same" to make it more pleasing to the ear.

I think that's a good point though.. and I like Gregorian chant a lot too. This could be the case in some hymns. But - this is just my opinion of course - in many contemporary hymns, it's like they don't attempt at the same type of theology as the older ones. It's not that they couldn't find the words, rather their topics are different to begin with. The older hymns also use more "exalted" language if thats the right word. I'm not saying that all contemporary hymns are the same, - they are not, but many seem to stop at gathering together, being joyful in worship... and don't really go beyond that.

There are people who might really like them and be edified by them. Personally, I don't find that they do much for me, maybe because I come to Mass with different intentions. Who knows. I love the old hymns like "Holy God we praise Thy Name" and "Stabat Mater Dolorosa" or "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" (which is awesome).

The new hymns are mostly found in Gather or Glory and Praise hymnal, the older ones are in Adoremus (which is my personal favourite) or Catholic Book of Worship II (which contains both old and new).

I think melody is also important... I've always liked the melody of "The Angel Gabriel from Heaven Came", or "Ave Maria", or "Tantum Ergo".

Then there are Marian hymns such as:

Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day;
Mary the Gate, Christ the Heav'nly Way!
Mary the Root, Christ the Mystic Vine;
Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine!
Mary the Wheat-sheaf, Christ the Living Bread;
Mary the Rose-Tree, Christ the Rose Blood-red!
Mary the Font, Christ the Cleansing Flood;
Mary the Chalice, Christ the Saving Blood!
Mary the Temple, Christ the Temple's Lord;
Mary the Shrine, Christ the God adored!
Mary the Beacon, Christ the Haven's Rest;
Mary the Mirror, Christ the Vision Blest!
Mary the Mother, Christ the Mother's Son.
Both ever blest while endless ages run.

All of them seem to rhyme

God bless!

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

As I said, this was just something that Gregorian chant made me think of, since much of it does not rhyme. I don't think that rhyming in and of itself negates proper Theology. That would make absolutely no sense. I was just wondering if the need to make something rhyme limits the potential Theological vocabulary that can be used, making it more difficult to get the proper Theology across. For example....consubstantial. That rhymes with....monumental.. .sacramental....soup with lentils. If you couldn't find a fitting rhyme for the word, you might try to water it down and just say "the same" to make it more pleasing to the ear.

I would point out that the vast majority of Gregorian Chants are in Latin which make getting the Thelology across a little rough for anyone for whom Latin is not their native tougue.

Which is everybody.

I would also point out the translating Latin to English in a Gregorian Chant next to impossible to do because of the meter changes necesary, which means that serious liberities have to be taken to get the words to fit.

Which also muddles the message.

 

[MikeK]

I would also point out the translating Latin to English in a Gregorian Chant next to impossible to do because of the meter changes necesary.

Yeah. It has a meter that is tricky. A little wiki waki wiki...

 

[ebia]

There's this hymn I like...

God of Mercy and Compassion - YouTube

It's
-old / traditional
- (I'd say) moving
- "personal"
- rhymes

I think the problem with SOME of the new hymns is not the rhyming, but the lack of depth in theology. Like someone said, I don't want to sing to the sun, or the rain, I don't want to sing about "gathering", - but I want to worship God and grow in love for Him, humility, and virtue.

:nods: The bulk of modern songs have very little theology. The best of the great English hymn writers like Isaac Watts, Charles Wesley, Richard Bewes, had no problems combining rhyme and serious theology (whether one agrees with their theology is beside the point).

And it does matter - ordinary people in the pews pick up a massive amount of their theology from the hymns.

 

[Gwendolyn]

And it does matter - ordinary people in the pews pick up a massive amount of their theology from the hymns.

Precisely. Every word of the liturgy, hymns and chants included, is crucial to conveying our theology. Don't we always say that the rule of prayer is the rule of belief?

Personally I think the West's desire for feel-good hymns has killed the theology contained in hymns. God is great, God is good, God loves everyone, yay God.

Older English hymns, even if they did rhyme, still contained a healthy dose of theology. Now, there is very little.

I am one of the rare ones who understands Latin so I like Gregorian chant. So beautiful and moving.

I went to an Orthodox church with my (Catholic) priest last year. The chant was in Greek but I had a missal. Reading the words in English was even so beautiful, almost heartbreakingly so because I ached to chant and hear such beautiful theology in my own church. Then I went to my Catholic parish and we had hymns about how the water of life is refreshing and God is good and earthen vessels. It was a culture shock, especially after having seen how beautiful the DL is.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Yeah. It has a meter that is tricky. A little wiki waki wiki...

Actually I think this is actually the English translation of one of the Gregorian chants........


.

 

[Fantine]

I've never heard the idea that a hymn should be pedagogical. I have always heard that it is sung prayer.

And when we pray, we are seeking a relationship with God. I think that "exalted language" can be detrimental to our relationship with God, and that it can prevent us from speaking from our hearts.

I also think that pedagogical hymns can be detrimental to our relating to God in song, because it also prevents us from speaking our hearts.

Isn't it enough that we are changing the Holy, Holy to say "Lord God of Hosts" (which, I read, means "armies....")

Turning a prayer that means something to me to a prayer that means less to me, because although I realize that the God of "armies" meant something to people 5000 years ago, I think that few--if any--of us have, or would even want to have, that militaristic idea of God today. But OK, they changed the word to Lord God of "armies," rendering it irrelevant to most of us.

Making it even more important that the rest of the hymns allow people to truly pray what's in their hearts.

 

[Gwendolyn]

The liturgy, including hymns, are supposed to express our theology. The things we say, how we address God, His attributes, etc. are extremely important. We can praise God while also emphasising important things about Him and this faith. If you listen to some Byzantine chant, you will see that it is praise that often "tells a story", so to speak. It doesn't have to be lofty language, but the whole purpose of liturgy is centred around the people expressing what they believe, and if you focus only on one aspect of belief (ie "God is good and loving"), you leave out other important things that are crucial to understanding the beauty of the faith.