RFK Jr’s ‘Maha’ report found to contain citations to nonexistent studies

The IbanezerScrooge said:

RFK Jr’s ‘Maha’ report found to contain citations to nonexistent studies

Failures uncovered as US health secretary touted ‘gold-standard’ science in health report ordered by Trump team

www.theguardian.com

Another source:

US government report cited non-existent sources, academics say

Authors of several studies cited in the report told news outlets they did not write them and the studies did not exist.

www.bbc.com

They are literally making stuff up to justify their policies.

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Maybe the report was produced with generative AI. These kinds of hallucinations still happen with some AI models.

Given that Tech Oligarchs have ingratiated themselves to the Trump administration, including seeking out closer working relationships and set asides (like NVidia being allowed to export GPU's to China, or Trump recently promoting Crusoe's Stargate project in Abilene, Texas) , it wouldn't surprise me if the Trump administration is using generative AI, at least to some extent.

ThatRobGuy said:

In other words, do people dislike RFK because of his anti-vaxx positions?, or are the anti-vaxx positions just the "public facing" reason being given, but the real reason they dislike him is because he aligned with the president they don't like?

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It's quite reasonable to object to his position on various medical matters. It's quite stupid to object just because he's part of the administration.

Whether one likes him or not is an entirely different matter. I'd have a beer with all of the presidents from JFK onwards, even though I objected strongly to some of their policies. Well, all with one exception. I disagree with almost political move Trump makes but I also dislike the man intently.

I sincerely hope he comes to Australia. You'll find out how many others feel as I do.

The IbanezerScrooge said:

RFK Jr’s ‘Maha’ report found to contain citations to nonexistent studies

Failures uncovered as US health secretary touted ‘gold-standard’ science in health report ordered by Trump team

www.theguardian.com

Another source:

US government report cited non-existent sources, academics say

Authors of several studies cited in the report told news outlets they did not write them and the studies did not exist.

www.bbc.com

They are literally making stuff up to justify their policies.

Click to expand...

Just like a forum ! eh?

ThatRobGuy said:

...the reason why it's important (and should interest people) is because sincerity is key with regards to determining whether or not a particular political team actually "takes something seriously" or if they're just doing it for political expediency.

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You likely don't know this, but my first forays into the Current Events and Politics sections were fighting COVID disinformation 5 years ago when I worked hard to keep my own politics out of the discussion. Facts and our then current understanding of the disease were more important (and vastly so) than partisanship. Unfortunately there were active partisans in the media/government/influencer spaces that were bent on turning opposition into COVID countermeasures into partisan partisan positions.

ThatRobGuy said:

If I claimed to be absolutely shocked and disgusted with drunk driving (just because the current stats indicate that people from the other side are currently doing it at a higher rate, despite never really complaining about it before)...do you trust me to take the same hard stance if the partisan trend changes? Or would there be the distinct concern that I'd revert back to the "meh" blasé attitude towards it?

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Analogies don't seem to be your best line of argument. This one was a dud.

ThatRobGuy said:

In other words, do people dislike RFK because of his anti-vaxx positions?, or are the anti-vaxx positions just the "public facing" reason being given, but the real reason they dislike him is because he aligned with the president they don't like?

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I have a general dislike for Kennedys and their privilege and media attention. Without it "RFKJr" would have been nothing more than a minor environmental lawyer (hopefully doing good work) with no media presence.

Once I learned that one of them (kennedys) was an anti-vax campaigner and an influential one, that was all I needed to disdain him, specifically. That is still why i disdain him, and that seems unlikely to stop until one of us is dead. (him or me, strike that, I'll have to be me)

Sure, his attempt to run for president as a Democrat did kick the "Kennedy arrogance" aspect of my disdain for him to flare up, but principally due to his arrogance to think he could run for president primarily on the basis that he was "a Kennedy".

His alignment to Trump did no endear him to me in the slightest and made it clear that a possible new Trump administration would definitely be bad on vaccines and probably health generally. (Oh, boy that was an understatement. The Trump-Kennedy alliance is the worst thing to ever happen to US health and health policy.) Even the worst political thing he is doing is an anti-health impact. (If my side had won the election and foolishly let him inside the government I would grouse about it and hope that it was only in a less damaging position like food guy'. But hypotheticals are just that, hypothetical, and not what actually happened.)

ThatRobGuy said:

Because if it's the latter, then I have zero confidence that they uphold the position if another new vaccine comes up where the opposition is non-partisan.

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Then you really don't know me. Vaccines are one of the greatest medical inventions ever made and I don't care who the opponents are, what their politics are, what their religion is, what their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or religion. I'll fight any of the anti-vax idiots.

FireDragon76 said:

Maybe the report was produced with generative AI. These kinds of hallucinations still happen with some AI models.

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Certainly parts of it were, or it was at least passed through an "AI" for polish.

FireDragon76 said:

Given that Tech Oligarchs have ingratiated themselves to the Trump administration, including seeking out closer working relationships and set asides (like NVidia being allowed to export GPU's to China, or Trump recently promoting Crusoe's Stargate project in Abilene, Texas) , it wouldn't surprise me if the Trump administration is using generative AI, at least to some extent.

Click to expand...

Trump's loyalists in government are uninformed, undereducated, and lazy. Perfect candidates for taking "AI shortcuts".

The IbanezerScrooge said:

RFK Jr’s ‘Maha’ report found to contain citations to nonexistent studies

Failures uncovered as US health secretary touted ‘gold-standard’ science in health report ordered by Trump team

www.theguardian.com

Another source:

US government report cited non-existent sources, academics say

Authors of several studies cited in the report told news outlets they did not write them and the studies did not exist.

www.bbc.com

They are literally making stuff up to justify their policies.

Click to expand...

Probably some intern put it together with AI and no one was knowledgeable enough on the topic proof read it.

Hans Blaster said:

Then you really don't know me. Vaccines are one of the greatest medical inventions ever made and I don't care who the opponents are, what their politics are, what their religion is, what their race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or religion. I'll fight any of the anti-vax idiots.

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That might be you in particular, but that's certainly wasn't everyone.

As I noted, anti-vaxx sentiments were "well tolerated" (pun intended) by both political factions up until the mid-2010's.

While you may have always been against it, a substantial portion of the Democratic party was not. Evidenced by the fact that states like Vermont, California, Colorado, Washington, and Oregon all had rules on the books allowing for non-medical exemptions to childhood vaccination. (they typically don't create carveout laws like that just for 10 random guys living in the woods)

As I noted before, it wasn't even a deal breaker for the Obama admin, as they were considering Kennedy for a cabinet position in 2009 (even though his anti-vaxx activism started 4 years prior to that)

That's obviously not intended to say that Obama's admin was anti-vaccine (or any of the mainstream democrats for that matter), just merely to highlight that they didn't see it as a dealbreaker.

Bradskii said:

It's quite reasonable to object to his position on various medical matters. It's quite stupid to object just because he's part of the administration.

Whether one likes him or not is an entirely different matter. I'd have a beer with all of the presidents from JFK onwards, even though I objected strongly to some of their policies. Well, all with one exception. I disagree with almost political move Trump makes but I also dislike the man intently.

I sincerely hope he comes to Australia. You'll find out how many others feel as I do.

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If we look at some historical polling (pre-covid)



In the late 2000's, there were congress members (Kaptur, Maloney, Kucinich -- all democrats, 2 from my state) that were sponsoring bills to "look into autism links".

When California passed their bill to remove the personal non-medical exemptions in the wake of the Disney outbreak, 2 democratic state senators and 5 democratic assembly members voted against it (plus a handful of others opted to abstain from the vote)

Both senators and 3 of the assembly members went on to win re-elections.

So while the majority of people weren't anti-vaxx, most didn't see it as a deal breaker either.

It's only started getting portrayed as a "red line issue" when the the non-partisan trend start to transition into a partisan one.


Even during covid you could see some partisan hackery here in the US.

Case in point, the demographics that had the highest vaccine hesitancy and lowest uptake were as follows:
Black People
Hispanic men
Middle aged conservatives

...yet, only the bottom one got regularly discussed in a chastising tone and got a proper "ripping into" in the media coverage for refusing jabs.


That would indicate to me that a lot of people were employing the logic that you labelled as stupid, which is selective objection to anti-vaxxerism based on who's doing it, rather than a broader condemnation.

ThatRobGuy said:

But if we take just a step back and think about it objectively....
is RFK saying "I think raw milk is healthy" or "Vitamin A is a great way to boost your immune system" really any more or less "quacky" than the LA public health department touting Chiropractic care (who are and were the main purveyors of the anti-vaxx movement dating back to the smallpox vaccine), the state of California touting that they're now going to license "traditional healers", or UCLA/UCSF saying that there's benefits for Depression, Asthma, and Arthritis from magic herbs and healing gems?

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No, it is not more quacky but equally. Each is disgraceful.

RFK, JR is not merely saying "Vitamin A is a great way to boost your immune system" but that vitamin A is a suitably substitute of MMR vaccines, specifically for measles.

DaisyDay said:

No, it is not more quacky but equally. Each is disgraceful.

RFK, JR is not merely saying "Vitamin A is a great way to boost your immune system" but that vitamin A is a suitably substitute of MMR vaccines, specifically for measles.

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That's basically similar to the claim that naturopaths and other "alternative medicine doctors" will regularly make


Yet
Washington State, Cali, Oregon, Vermont, Colorado, and New Hampshire are on the short list of states that not only recognize and license them as "real doctors", but also give them the "power of the pen" and allow them to practice autonomously without any MD or DO supervision. (whereas some other states will let them practice, but their practice has to have a supervising physician who's an MD for safety and liability reasons)

While, ironically enough, Naturopathic practice is banned in Florida, Tennessee, and South Carolina. (they also more tightly regulate other alternative practices as well like Chiropractic and Acupuncture)

How's that for a plot twist?

The states where the politicians espouse the most pro-vaccine sentiments (politically) are the same ones advertising on their public health department websites "Find a licensed Naturopath/Chiropractor/Homeopath near me" features... One might as well just call that an "Anti-vaxxer locator tool"

Meanwhile, the states that have taken more of a "we're not going to pressure people to get vaccinated" stance, are the ones who say "Nope, you're not doing that Naturopathy stuff here, and if we catch you doing it, you're in trouble"

ThatRobGuy said:

That might be you in particular, but that's certainly wasn't everyone.

As I noted, anti-vaxx sentiments were "well tolerated" (pun intended) by both political factions up until the mid-2010's.

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Isn't weird how somethings that could be important aren't treated as such because other things are also important until, you know, circumstances change.

ThatRobGuy said:

While you may have always been against it, a substantial portion of the Democratic party was not. Evidenced by the fact that states like Vermont, California, Colorado, Washington, and Oregon all had rules on the books allowing for non-medical exemptions to childhood vaccination. (they typically don't create carveout laws like that just for 10 random guys living in the woods)

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And they were wrong. (As I recall MS used to have some of the strictest exceptions for childhood vaccines in the country. So many things have changed since 2020, so I don't know if that is still the case.)

ThatRobGuy said:

As I noted before, it wasn't even a deal breaker for the Obama admin, as they were considering Kennedy for a cabinet position in 2009 (even though his anti-vaxx activism started 4 years prior to that)

That's obviously not intended to say that Obama's admin was anti-vaccine (or any of the mainstream democrats for that matter), just merely to highlight that they didn't see it as a dealbreaker.

Click to expand...

ThatRobGuy said:

That's basically similar to the claim that naturopaths and other "alternative medicine doctors" will regularly make

Naturopathy vs. Science: Vaccination Edition

We saw it coming. The re-emergence of vaccine-preventable disease should surprise no-one that's been following the anti-vaccine movement.Rebutting anti-vaccine rhetoric feels like a Sisyphean

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Yet
Washington State, Cali, Oregon, Vermont, Colorado, and New Hampshire are on the short list of states that not only recognize and license them as "real doctors", but also give them the "power of the pen" and allow them to practice autonomously without any MD or DO supervision. (whereas some other states will let them practice, but their practice has to have a supervising physician who's an MD for safety and liability reasons)

While, ironically enough, Naturopathic practice is banned in Florida, Tennessee, and South Carolina. (they also more tightly regulate other alternative practices as well like Chiropractic and Acupuncture)

How's that for a plot twist?

The states where the politicians espouse the most pro-vaccine sentiments (politically) are the same ones advertising on their public health department websites "Find a licensed Naturopath/Chiropractor/Homeopath near me" features... One might as well just call that an "Anti-vaxxer locator tool"

Meanwhile, the states that have taken more of a "we're not going to pressure people to get vaccinated" stance, are the ones who say "Nope, you're not doing that Naturopathy stuff here, and if we catch you doing it, you're in trouble"

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Your whole argument in favor of RFK in his current position seems to be "but looks who's doing dumb things over there!"

When the discussion turns to just the merits of RFK himself in his position, and arguments against him are presented, you never seem to take them head on and instead typically fall back on your distraction routine.

As for homeopaths etc, yeah I think its pretty quacky. But the overarching political premise here seems to be in favor of liberty where its mainly about personal choice that doesnt directly imperil others. Plus I dont think you have the chief medical regulators in these states disparaging science based medicine and promoting these "alternatives".

RFK otoh is in charge of our national effort to address deadly communicable diseases. And he's an impediment to those efforts. The exact opposite of whats needed.

Send him to the Department of School Lunches or something.

ThatRobGuy said:

If we look at some historical polling (pre-covid)

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Looks like things were pretty politically balanced until a segment of the political world intentionally pushed partisan arguments against vaccines.

durangodawood said:

Your whole argument in favor of RFK in his current position seems to be "but looks who's doing dumb things over there!"

When the discussion turns to just the merits of RFK himself in his position, and arguments against him are presented, you never seem to take them head on and instead typically fall back on your distraction routine.

As for homeopaths etc, yeah I think its pretty quacky. But the overarching political premise here seems to be in favor of liberty where its mainly about personal choice that doesnt directly imperil others. Plus I dont think you have the chief medical regulators in these states disparaging science based medicine and promoting these "alternatives".

RFK otoh is in charge of our national effort to address deadly communicable diseases. And he's an impediment to those efforts. The exact opposite of whats needed.

Send him to the Department of School Lunches or something.

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I've critiqued his anti-vaxx positions on numerous occasions.

The part I object to is the notion that everyone should be more alarmed that usual because he represents something "uniquely bad" that's unique to him. (after decades of equivalent nonsense being not only be tolerated, but licensed and allowed to continue.


In Oregon, a Naturopath was put in change of implementation for Measure 110. (rolling out their drug legalization program) -- while their license was under suspension for improperly dispensing opioids no less

(and it sounds like they still have a leadership position)

"they continue to lead the state’s Psilocybin Advisory Board, which gives recommendations to the Oregon Health Authority on how to carry out Measure 109."


Honestly the way it comes across is that
"unqualified + quacky" = "bad"
"unqualified + quacky + republican" = "Whoa, the sky is falling, public health as we know it is going to collapse!"


So I'm not suggesting that RFK being in that position is "no big deal" or doesn't have clearly defined risks, I'm suggesting that some people are pretending to be more shocked and appalled by it than what they really are, simply because of his political affiliation.

ThatRobGuy said:

As I noted before, it wasn't even a deal breaker for the Obama admin, as they were considering Kennedy for a cabinet position in 2009 (even though his anti-vaxx activism started 4 years prior to that)

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Obama wasn’t considering him to head the healthcare but for an environmental position. Similarly, Ben Carson might have qualified for Surgeon General but he had no business as head of HUD.

Hans Blaster said:

Looks like things were pretty politically balanced until a segment of the political world intentionally pushed partisan arguments against vaccines.

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And it wasn't until partisan trends emerged on the right, that the left all of the sudden made it a show-stopper "hill to die on" and wore "I got my vaccine" stickers like badges of honor after decades of relative indifference.

DaisyDay said:

Obama wasn’t considering him to head the healthcare but for an environmental position. Similarly, Ben Carson might have qualified for Surgeon General but he had no business as head of HUD.

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Would it really matter though...

Are you suggesting that, post-covid, Democrats would've been on board with Trump naming RFK to head up the EPA? (given his anti-vaxxer status)

...or, if a Democrat had won, their party would've been cool with appointing an anti-vaxxer (but a good environmental lawyer) to an EPA position?


It's been a few years now, but I think people are forgetting just how much of a "persona non grata" it made a person (in the eyes of Democrats) if they opposed the covid vaccines.

ThatRobGuy said:

I've critiqued his anti-vaxx positions on numerous occasions.

The part I object to is the notion that everyone should be more alarmed that usual because he represents something "uniquely bad" that's unique to him. (after decades of equivalent nonsense being not only be tolerated, but licensed and allowed to continue.


In Oregon, a Naturopath was put in change of implementation for Measure 110. (rolling out their drug legalization program) -- while their license was under suspension for improperly dispensing opioids no less

Measure 110 program manager resigns, says state was ‘maliciously negligent’ | The Lund Report

Angela Carter said Oregon Health Authority ignored repeated requests for staffing and resources and fostered secrecy and manipulation as the drug decriminalization law rolled out

www.thelundreport.org

(and it sounds like they still have a leadership position)

Manager of Oregon’s drug decriminalization program resigns

The Measure 110 drug decriminalization program manager Oregon hired in August 2021 resigned last month.

www.kptv.com

"they continue to lead the state’s Psilocybin Advisory Board, which gives recommendations to the Oregon Health Authority on how to carry out Measure 109."


Honestly the way it comes across is that
"unqualified + quacky" = "bad"
"unqualified + quacky + republican" = "Whoa, the sky is falling, public health as we know it is going to collapse!"


So I'm not suggesting that RFK being in that position is "no big deal" or doesn't have clearly defined risks, I'm suggesting that some people are pretending to be more shocked and appalled by it than what they really are, simply because of his political affiliation.

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A guy in charge of one state's roll out of a single law is who you throw up for comparison to the guy in charge of FDA CDC NIH ???

No, this HHS leadership choice really is uniquely bad.

ThatRobGuy said:

So I'm not suggesting that RFK being in that position is "no big deal" or doesn't have clearly defined risks, I'm suggesting that some people are pretending to be more shocked and appalled by it than what they really are, simply because of his political affiliation.

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Or, perhaps, those of us who don't live in Oregon (or Washington, or California, or Colorado) are not as clued-in on the happenings in those states as we are with the happenings in the federal government.

ThatRobGuy said:

And it wasn't until partisan trends emerged on the right,

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Do you not remember 5 years ago? Remember how at increasing intensity conservative commentators and politicians battled against COVID counter-measures and backed disproven "treatments" while calling attempts to take counter measures "liberal"? (And that included the President.)

ThatRobGuy said:

that the left all of the sudden made it a show-stopper "hill to die on"

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You really have that backwards. As I was just asking about regarding your recall, it was conservatives that rejected countermeasures by calling them "liberal", etc. Any liberal backlash was just that backlash to the rejection.

ThatRobGuy said:

and wore "I got my vaccine" stickers like badges of honor after decades of relative indifference.

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Have you not heard of civic pride in doing your part to end the crisis? Are you that cynical? (It is no different than those "I voted" stickers. Pride in doing your part.)