Revelation and the Use of the Vav Consecutive and Kai in the Bible

[m423156]

There is a very good reason why the vav consecutive is called the vav consecutive. It has been understood from ancient times that the Hebrew vav prefix is a conjunction used for sequential/series denotations. "ויאמר אלהים יהי אור" (And God said, Let there be light) is the first use of the vav consecutive in the Hebrew Bible after 'And darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is continuously and consistently used for ordering and sequence. It may be translated in difference ways into English such as 'Then, next, and', but in Hebrew, as well as the Hebraized use of the conjunction και in the LXX and NT, one thing that is certain is that any time the vav consecutive and the kai are used first in a sentence in the Bible, whether Old or New Testaments, they always denote order and consecutive action.

Being that is the case, it is certain without doubt that Revelation is written in sequential order of events. There is no hermeneutical way out of it. There is not even one case in the Bible where a vav consecutive or a και as the beginning of a sentence does not denote sequence of order and action. It consistently denotes order and sequence of action in every single case without exception.

If any one can show even one case where the vav consecutive or premiere kai denotes anything but sequence, I'll be interested in how you arrive at that understanding.

The book of Revelation is orderly and sequential just as much so as Genesis, and it can be demonstrated by noting the usage of kai throughout just as the sequence of Genesis can be demonstrated by noting the usage of vav consecutive prefix and kai in the LXX. Therefore, if you hear someone teach that Revelation is non-sequential in ordering of actual events, then you can know that the teacher has missed the mark on two counts. It's grammatically bad reading and bad hermeneutics. What we see in Revelation is the spiritual sequence of events from the beginning of Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven around AD 70 all the way to the ending of the heavens and the earth and even into the age beyond in new heavens and new earth. And it is a linear sequence of events, not a non-linear sequence of events. There is no way to correctly reorder the sequence of events in Revelation. For example, chapter 6 by no means comes after chapter 18 in event sequence. The actual grammatical structure of Revelation does not lend itself to such a reading.

 

[iamlamad]

There is a very good reason why the vav consecutive is called the vav consecutive. It has been understood from ancient times that the Hebrew vav prefix is a conjunction used for sequential/series denotations. "ויאמר אלהים יהי אור" (And God said, Let there be light) is the first use of the vav consecutive in the Hebrew Bible after 'And darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is continuously and consistently used for ordering and sequence. It may be translated in difference ways into English such as 'Then, next, and', but in Hebrew, as well as the Hebraized use of the conjunction και in the LXX and NT, one thing that is certain is that any time the vav consecutive and the kai are used first in a sentence in the Bible, whether Old or New Testaments, they always denote order and consecutive action.

Being that is the case, it is certain without doubt that Revelation is written in sequential order of events. There is no hermeneutical way out of it. There is not even one case in the Bible where a vav consecutive or a και as the beginning of a sentence does not denote sequence of order and action. It consistently denotes order and sequence of action in every single case without exception.

If any one can show even one case where the vav consecutive or premiere kai denotes anything but sequence, I'll be interested in how you arrive at that understanding.

The book of Revelation is orderly and sequential just as much so as Genesis, and it can be demonstrated by noting the usage of kai throughout just as the sequence of Genesis can be demonstrated by noting the usage of vav consecutive prefix and kai in the LXX. Therefore, if you hear someone teach that Revelation is non-sequential in ordering of actual events, then you can know that the teacher has missed the mark on two counts. It's grammatically bad reading and bad hermeneutics. What we see in Revelation is the spiritual sequence of events from the beginning of Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven around AD 70 all the way to the ending of the heavens and the earth and even into the age beyond in new heavens and new earth. And it is a linear sequence of events, not a non-linear sequence of events. There is no way to correctly reorder the sequence of events in Revelation. For example, chapter 6 by no means comes after chapter 18 in event sequence. The actual grammatical structure of Revelation does not lend itself to such a reading.

hi Newbie. I agree with this post, as far as I can understand it. That is to day I agree with the premise. However, I don't understand a "vav consecutive" or a Kai. I was sure that John used GREEK to write Revelation.

However, all that aside, I believe the premise that Revelation is written in order just by understanding it.

 

[m423156]

hi Newbie. I agree with this post, as far as I can understand it. That is to day I agree with the premise. However, I don't understand a "vav consecutive" or a Kai. I was sure that John used GREEK to write Revelation.

However, all that aside, I believe the premise that Revelation is written in order just by understanding it.

Good enough for me.

However, if you ever need a grammatical/exegetical reason for reading it that way, there is one.

P.S. Kai is Greek.

 

[tranquil]

What you say sounds very reasonable, but I would like to see some examples of what you are saying - esp in Revelation.

If you are saying that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are sequential, I would sort of go along with this statement. But there are some sections of Revelation that are clearly not sequential.

 

[ebedmelech]

This is a dangerous road!

Revelation IS NOT sequential nor chronological in how it's written. It does say the same things in different way using imagery. John goes back and forth in his visions which in *some* cases, are saying the same thing in different imagery.

To think it is sequential also leads to error.

 

[m423156]

The usage of the vav consecutive and the Hebraized use of kai through the Bible would argue against Revelation being anything but sequential. On linguistic grounds, no argument but a sequential one can really be made. It is not as if you are given definite time periods such as in Daniel where you can know that the visions are presented in non-sequential order. There is no sealing up of the vision in Revelation. Revelation is written like Genesis, with one thing after the next in sequential order, as an unfolding, a scroll being unrolled.

There is even a big clue when it says,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants, even the things which must imminently be coming to pass: and he sent and symbolized it by his angel to his servant John. - Rev. 1:1

 

[ebedmelech]

The usage of the vav consecutive and the Hebraized use of kai through the Bible would argue against Revelation being anything but sequential. On linguistic grounds, no argument but a sequential one can really be made. It is not as if you are given definite time periods such as in Daniel where you can know that the visions are presented in non-sequential order. There is no sealing up of the vision in Revelation. Revelation is written like Genesis, with one thing after the next in sequential order, as an unfolding, a scroll being unrolled.

Rather than focus on vav consecutive, the proper thing to do is read Revelation in light of HOW John said he delivered and unfolds the vision given him by the angel.

The first thing to observe is that John "SIGNIFIED" (or by signs/symbols) the message in Revelation 1:1.

The second thing to observe is WHERE John says he was in Revelation 1:9-11:
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The tribulation is already occurring at the time John wrote this.

He continues:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

There is even a big clue when it says,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants, even the things which must imminently be coming to pass: and he sent and symbolized it by his angel to his servant John. - Rev. 1:1

The big clue is again in HOW John is delivering the message...which is using "signs" or properly translating the word you use "symbolized" which is the Greek semaino. A link to it's meaning:
Semaino - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

 

[stillwaters45]

Actually Revelation shows every mark of being highly literal translated Hebrew/Aramaic, as has been argued by a number of scholars.

 

[m423156]

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if it is originally Greek or Hebrew. The use of Kai in Revelation still follows the usage of the Hebrew vav consecutive. There is no difference in the narrative style and form of Genesis and Revelation except for apocalyptic elements. As far as the vav consecutive and Kai usage, they are the same.

Therefore, not only would I argue that Revelation is as sequential as Genesis to 2 Kings, I would argue that there is no other way to read it but as sequential order.

No one reads the days of creation as anything but sequential in using the vav consecutive. I have no idea how anyone could get anything other than sequential order in the 7 seals, trumpets and plagues when it is written in the same Hebraized style.

If you do, it is only because you forced it on the text, not due to anything actually in the text.

 

[stillwaters45]

Not sure why you are invoking the vav consecutive here--you are simply saying that kai is conjunctive and therefore suggests sequence--the vav consecutive is a feature of Hebrew whereby the tense is 'converted' (scholars don't accept that it is 'converted' as such anymore). I bet you never studied a day of Hebrew!

 

[m423156]

Not sure why you are invoking the vav consecutive here--you are simply saying that kai is conjunctive and therefore suggests sequence--the vav consecutive is a feature of Hebrew whereby the tense is 'converted' (scholars don't accept that it is 'converted' as such anymore). I bet you never studied a day of Hebrew!

I have 2 years of Biblical Hebrew as I was a near-eastern linguistics major. The vav consecutive shows both sequence and series, from the very first chapter in the Bible. 'And God said', 'And God said', And God said. You could correctly translate this as 'Next God said', or 'Then God said'. The vav consecutive is consistently translated with either the Kai or the de in the Greek Septuagint and the New Testament continues this Hebraized usage of narrative sequence.

There is simply no other conclusion to draw but that the clear style and form of Revelation is sequential and linear.

 

[iamlamad]

What you say sounds very reasonable, but I would like to see some examples of what you are saying - esp in Revelation.

If you are saying that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are sequential, I would sort of go along with this statement. But there are some sections of Revelation that are clearly not sequential.

Please tells us which sections? I don't believe it. However, it may be you are thinking of John's parenthesis. Indeed they are not a part of John's chronology. And example would be the first five verses of chapter 12.

 

[iamlamad]

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if it is originally Greek or Hebrew. The use of Kai in Revelation still follows the usage of the Hebrew vav consecutive. There is no difference in the narrative style and form of Genesis and Revelation except for apocalyptic elements. As far as the vav consecutive and Kai usage, they are the same.

Therefore, not only would I argue that Revelation is as sequential as Genesis to 2 Kings, I would argue that there is no other way to read it but as sequential order.

No one reads the days of creation as anything but sequential in using the vav consecutive. I have no idea how anyone could get anything other than sequential order in the 7 seals, trumpets and plagues when it is written in the same Hebraized style.

If you do, it is only because you forced it on the text, not due to anything actually in the text.

I agree 100%. However, I think the narrative itself proves this point.

 

[iamlamad]

Ebedmolech wrote,

Originally Posted by m423156

The usage of the vav consecutive and the Hebraized use of kai through the Bible would argue against Revelation being anything but sequential. On linguistic grounds, no argument but a sequential one can really be made. It is not as if you are given definite time periods such as in Daniel where you can know that the visions are presented in non-sequential order. There is no sealing up of the vision in Revelation. Revelation is written like Genesis, with one thing after the next in sequential order, as an unfolding, a scroll being unrolled.
​

Rather than focus on vav consecutive, the proper thing to do is read Revelation in light of HOW John said he delivered and unfolds the vision given him by the angel.

The first thing to observe is that John "SIGNIFIED" (or by signs/symbols) the message in Revelation 1:1.

Sorry, heard this false argument before. Readers: notice how this same Greek word is used in other verses to "make known or to "indicate":

Jhn 12:33 This he said, signifying G4591 what death he should die.

Jhn 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying G4591 what death he should die.

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying G4591 by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified G4591 by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Act 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify G4591 the crimes laid against him.

The second thing to observe is WHERE John says he was in Revelation 1:9-11:
9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

The tribulation is already occurring at the time John wrote this.

Readers, DON'T BE FOOLED here. In the mind of God the CHURCH AGE is "tribulation."


He continues:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Originally Posted by m423156 John was in the spirit, no doubt of that, but he was NOT sent through time to see the actual Day of the Lord and 70th week play out. He saw the future in VISIONS. And it was probably on a Sunday when this happened.

There is even a big clue when it says,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants, even the things which must imminently be coming to pass: and he sent and symbolized it by his angel to his servant John. - Rev. 1:1
​

The big clue is again in HOW John is delivering the message...which is using "signs" or properly translating the word you use "symbolized" which is the Greek semaino. A link to it's meaning:
Semaino - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Readers beware: DON'T BE DECEIVED by what sounds possible.

 

[stillwaters45]

I have 2 years of Biblical Hebrew as I was a near-eastern linguistics major. The vav consecutive shows both sequence and series, from the very first chapter in the Bible. 'And God said', 'And God said', And God said. You could correctly translate this as 'Next God said', or 'Then God said'. The vav consecutive is consistently translated with either the Kai or the de in the Greek Septuagint and the New Testament continues this Hebraized usage of narrative sequence.

There is simply no other conclusion to draw but that the clear style and form of Revelation is sequential and linear.

Okay, my apologies--I thought you were saying that the conversive feature is displayed in the Greek--I see now that you mean that it is the idea of sequence found in the vav conversive that is underlying the use of kai in Revelation. Yes, seems like a good possibility.

 

[Interplanner]

But this OP does not answer why it was written to be assimilated immediately. See the 1st ch. For those readers. Soon, quick, now, at hand. That was all the case if the 2nd coming was to follow the DofJ, but we now know it did not.

When you reduce your source material to ongoing passages about the 2nd coming that have no 1st century trappings and are not a montage of symbolic passages like the Rev, there is not much to work with and the shortest span of events is the best: God will judge the world in righteousness. We have a redemptive message about that and we should be getting that out, not "working on the puzzle." God will take care of the puzzle just fine.

 

[BABerean2]

There is a very good reason why the vav consecutive is called the vav consecutive. It has been understood from ancient times that the Hebrew vav prefix is a conjunction used for sequential/series denotations. "ויאמר אלהים יהי אור" (And God said, Let there be light) is the first use of the vav consecutive in the Hebrew Bible after 'And darkness was upon the face of the deep. It is continuously and consistently used for ordering and sequence. It may be translated in difference ways into English such as 'Then, next, and', but in Hebrew, as well as the Hebraized use of the conjunction και in the LXX and NT, one thing that is certain is that any time the vav consecutive and the kai are used first in a sentence in the Bible, whether Old or New Testaments, they always denote order and consecutive action.

Being that is the case, it is certain without doubt that Revelation is written in sequential order of events. There is no hermeneutical way out of it. There is not even one case in the Bible where a vav consecutive or a και as the beginning of a sentence does not denote sequence of order and action. It consistently denotes order and sequence of action in every single case without exception.

If any one can show even one case where the vav consecutive or premiere kai denotes anything but sequence, I'll be interested in how you arrive at that understanding.

The book of Revelation is orderly and sequential just as much so as Genesis, and it can be demonstrated by noting the usage of kai throughout just as the sequence of Genesis can be demonstrated by noting the usage of vav consecutive prefix and kai in the LXX. Therefore, if you hear someone teach that Revelation is non-sequential in ordering of actual events, then you can know that the teacher has missed the mark on two counts. It's grammatically bad reading and bad hermeneutics. What we see in Revelation is the spiritual sequence of events from the beginning of Christ's coming in the clouds of heaven around AD 70 all the way to the ending of the heavens and the earth and even into the age beyond in new heavens and new earth. And it is a linear sequence of events, not a non-linear sequence of events. There is no way to correctly reorder the sequence of events in Revelation. For example, chapter 6 by no means comes after chapter 18 in event sequence. The actual grammatical structure of Revelation does not lend itself to such a reading.

The only way the book of Revelation could meet your requirement would be if the visions that John saw were presented to John in the sequence presented in the book. There is no way the events John saw could be in chronological order.

The harvest of chapter 14 cannot occur until the return of Christ.

The birth of the man child and the fall of Satan in chapter 12 shows it to be a review of Church history.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ in chapter 11, however the battle of Armageddon occurs later.

The events at the end of chapter 6 describing the wrath of the Lamb occur at the battle of Armageddon.



Maybe your Greek terms do describe the order in which John saw the visions, but no more.

.

 

[Danoh]

The only way the book of Revelation could meet your requirement would be if the visions that John saw were presented to John in the sequence presented in the book. There is no way the events John saw could be in chronological order.

The harvest of chapter 14 cannot occur until the return of Christ.

The birth of the man child and the fall of Satan in chapter 12 shows it to be a review of Church history.

The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ in chapter 11, however the battle of Armageddon occurs later.

The events at the end of chapter 6 describing the wrath of the Lamb occur at the battle of Armageddon.



Maybe your Greek terms do describe the order in which John saw the visions, but no more.

.

I see no way to arriving at the conclusion that Revelation 12 is relating Church history, BAB2.

Other than what one might read in books about such things.

I do not mean that as a put down, that is just where I have seen that kind of conclusion asserted.

And no, I am not basing this on some sort of a Dispensational schematic, for as I have tried to relate, I view Dispensationalism as no more than one more Bible study principle of the many available to the Bible student.

I have also related I do not agree with Ryrie's or whomever's "books about" as to what said Dispensational principle is.

In this, to me, all it is, it is a principle the consistent application of which must be constantly examined and reexamined each time in the Word and against what the Word points to – not against what the writings of this or that school of writers “about” assert is the Truth but against what the Word of Truth alone points to.

In this, all the principle basically is the practice of noting those things that differ in the Word, those that are only similar, and those that are the same, as the principle was the result of these very characteristics throughout Scripture.

That it too soon gave way to an entire theology one was now to reason "about" through is regrettable, as, again, it is a principle the consistent application of which must be constantly examined and reexamined each time in the Word, against the Word's final say.

At least as viewed among those I at times explore things with within Mid-Acts. that view it in a similar manner. For even many within Mid-Acts are far and away too wiling to simply go by our own "books about" in contrast to "searching the Scriptures daily" towards a bit further refining of the principle that is basically the practice of noting distinctions as much as similarities.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[m423156]

Well, there are two possibilities if reading Revelation in linear sequential order seems to not make any sense to us.

1. Either we must find our way out of a maze of confusion that was intentionally written to obfuscate and confuse order and action.

or

2. We don't understand Revelation properly.

Those are the choices.

And for those who choose to read it non-sequentially, they at each point are obliged prove the arbitrary non-linear sequence that they postulate. I have no doubt that many will try to do just that before it ever dawns on them that they might not understand anything that Revelation is signifying.

However, I am confident that from a purely grammatical point of view in reference to the Hebraized kai usage in the tradition of the vav consecutive, there is no other way, or original intent, to read Revelation but as a scroll from beginning to end in normal sequential, linear order. I understand that there will be those who will be unable to process the possibility that God may have revealed it in the most blatantly obvious, orderly and simple manner possible and in the same style as the all the other scriptures of the Law and Prophets they were accustomed to reading and contemplating.