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Revelation and age of earth

Percivale

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I have been a young earth creationist, but have been recently convinced that the universe and earth is billions of years old. Two things convinced me: first, the scientific evidence--radiometric dating, astronomy, seem pretty clear and mathematical. Second, the YEC responses. They theorize things like God speeding up radiometric decay a billion times during the flood, and God creating starlight in transit. Both of these theories, I think, would make God a liar, specifically, lying to scientists. For example, for God to create Adam as an adult would give him a superficial appearance of age but would not be dishonest, but if God created Adam with scars already on his body, and signs of aging like mutations or damage in his cells, that would be lying on God's part, or would give reason to believe he had not just been created. That is the position the universe is in.

Some believe in biblical inerrancy and an old earth, but hardly anyone doubts the Bible but believes in a young earth. That made me wary of YEC.

YECs often talk like its God's word against man's, but in reality, both general and special revelation (nature and scripture) are equally from God, and both are interpreted by human reason with possibility of error, so to pit one against the other is no different from pitting one part of the Bible against another (like, say, rejecting Romans if it seems to disagree with James). Rather, we should always seek to harmonize the two. I find natural revelation to favor an old earth more clearly than special revelation seems to favor a young one, so I believe in an old earth.
 

Calminian

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I have been a young earth creationist, but have been recently convinced that the universe and earth is billions of years old. Two things convinced me: first, the scientific evidence--radiometric dating, astronomy, seem pretty clear and mathematical. Second, the YEC responses. They theorize things like God speeding up radiometric decay a billion times during the flood, and God creating starlight in transit. Both of these theories, I think, would make God a liar, specifically, lying to scientists. For example, for God to create Adam as an adult would give him a superficial appearance of age but would not be dishonest, but if God created Adam with scars already on his body, and signs of aging like mutations or damage in his cells, that would be lying on God's part, or would give reason to believe he had not just been created. That is the position the universe is in.

Some believe in biblical inerrancy and an old earth, but hardly anyone doubts the Bible but believes in a young earth. That made me wary of YEC.

YECs often talk like its God's word against man's, but in reality, both general and special revelation (nature and scripture) are equally from God, and both are interpreted by human reason with possibility of error, so to pit one against the other is no different from pitting one part of the Bible against another (like, say, rejecting Romans if it seems to disagree with James). Rather, we should always seek to harmonize the two. I find natural revelation to favor an old earth more clearly than special revelation seems to favor a young one, so I believe in an old earth.

Hi Percivale. I'm not sure what what extent you were a YEC. You seem to have falling into it initially, but then got ahold of some OEC arguments, namely that natural revelation is equal to special revelation.

My journey was initially YEC, but then believing man was a latecomer into creation, moved to the Gap Theory. From the Gap Theory, I moved to Day-Age, noticing that the Gap Theory didn't deal so well with Ex. 20:11. Then I finally was shown the biblical arguments for young earth creationism and never looked back. So you could say I went full circle, but I originally adopted those OEC models for many of the reasons you described above. I just figured man's ideas about the universe were proven and we simply had to adapt the Bible to it.

Now you say you're interpreting natural revelation, but usually that's not the case. Most of the time, we're allowing others to explain the universe to us, and looking to men like Hawking, and Dawkins. Most of us aren't doing the actual research ourselves, but rather trusting the research of others. But we can research the Bible ourselves, and looking at the Genesis account, I can't think of a better way to express 6 literal days and a relatively young creation then Moses did in the Torah. It's about as explicit as it can be.

Now you say that if God created Adam with scars, that would be deceptive and I agree. And that's really where the debate lies. Young Earth creationists are in essence pointing out the lack of scars in creation, where OEC put forth what they believe to be analogous to scars. In my view, young earth creationists are doing more than an ample job in taking the scientific arguments off the table, and removing the stumbling blocks.

But ultimately, I think the debate starts and ends with the Text. Did death and suffering come from Adam's sin? or did God create a world in which cancer and predation and cannibalism and every other aspect of torment reigned for millions of years before Adam? For we find all these things in the fossil record. Yet after the six days of creation, God said, "behold it was very good." (v. 31) If fossils were formed by the flood, then it makes perfect sense. But if they formed millions of years before Adam, we have a very significant theological problem. Does cancer, and cannibalism sound very good to you?

I also think about the restoration Isaiah and other prophets spoke about, where lions, wolves and vipers would one day live in harmony with the animals they once preyed upon. What a wonderful picture! But if God originally called this predation "very good" what is there to restore? Furthermore, in Genesis 1 we're also told that God created certain plants to be food for man and all the animals. Thus in the beginning, it was not intended they should prey on one another, but all be vegetarian. And this makes perfect sense in regard to the coming restoration, where predators will go back to eating plants.

Is. 11:7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

I often marvel about how much sense the Bible makes, when Genesis is understood properly. It all just comes together perfectly.

And then you have Christ's statement that Adam and Eve were made from the beginning of creation.

Matt. 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God “made them male and female.’​

Yet according to the teachings of deep time, men came into existence at the very end of creation. In fact, were are just a small blip at the end of any visible time scale. So who do we believe? Men, or Christ? Who is more reliable?

I could go on and on, but like you, I believed in millions of years and sought to fit the Bible within them. But once I determined that men can be very wrong in their interpretations of the universe, and once I was free to rely on the text alone, there's just no other way for me to go.

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them​
 
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Percivale

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I grew up reading every Creation magazine and Acts and Facts that came out, listening to YEC debates, and feeling pretty certain the science supported it. Reading a few atheist books confirmed they didn't use good arguments against creation, but old earth creationist books showed the age of the earth is well established scientifically.

If it was only people like Dawkins that did origins science, I would agree we shouldn't trust their interpretations. But in reality, Christians are and always have been among those doing the science that shows the earth is old. The science behind the geologic column is older than Darwin.

For God to make a universe only six thousand years old, but with starlight coming from places millions of light years away and showing supernova and other star events that never happened, and with a pattern consistently demonstrating an age of 14 billion years, such as the cosmic background radiation, the most distant galaxies looking younger (more tightly wound, etc.), and more, would be highly deceptive. It's more consistent with His glory that he would make a universe that was truly vast in space in time, rather than one that just appeared to be.

The RATE project has concluded that the best way to harmonize radioisotope dating with a young earth is to assume that radioactivity went extremely fast at certain points in creation and the flood. There is no natural mechanism that would cause that, and if it happened it would fry all life on earth and make it permanently uninhabitable, so the only way it could have happened is if God did a series of miracles to cause it and to eliminate the effects of causing it. That seems like a total waste of miracles, which is not how God acts elsewhere, and the only purpose it could achieve is to deceive people about the age of the earth. God is not a liar, so he could not have done that. Therefore the earth is as old as radioisotope dating says. I have based that argument entirely on data provided by young earth creationists.

Of natural and special revelation, natural is the one most certainly from God, because we know he is the creator whether or not we are certain that the men who wrote down the Bible were truly inspired. If the Bible had physically descended from heaven in front of thousands of witnesses, it would be different, but as it is, we have to take a small number of humans' word for it that what is written really came from God. I believe we have sufficient evidence, from the resurrection and gospel writers, to believe God inspired the Bible, but that evidence is not as certain as the evidence that God created the universe, which I believe we have almost deductive certainty of. Just as scientific truths come to most of us from others, so the scriptures were copied and translated by humans.
 
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Calminian

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I grew up reading every Creation magazine and Acts and Facts that came out, listening to YEC debates, and feeling pretty certain the science supported it.

Yeah, but see that right there sends up red flags. The issue is not the science, but the Bible. These organizations stress presuppositions first, before getting into the science. If you missed that I can see why you'd reject the view.

Reading a few atheist books confirmed they didn't use good arguments against creation, but old earth creationist books showed the age of the earth is well established scientifically.

So you looked to atheists to inform you about presuppositions and world views? More red flags. How would an atheists be as good a source as God's word to a christian?

For God to make a universe only six thousand years old, but with starlight coming from places millions of light years away and showing supernova and other star events that never happened,….

I have no idea where you got the idea from ICR, that God made the starlight in transit. The light-in-transit theory has never been a theory given notice by reputable creationists organizations like ICR, AiG, CMI, etc. So I'm curious where you got this idea from. Can you name the source the told you this?

I've not met a single creationist in my 20 years of christianity that implied God created the appearance supernovas. I'd be very appreciative of that source.

...I believe we have sufficient evidence, from the resurrection and gospel writers, to believe God inspired the Bible, but that evidence is not as certain as the evidence that God created the universe, which I believe we have almost deductive certainty of…..

And this perhaps is the most serious red flag of all. It's sounds like you reject the doctrine of inerrancy, which is definitely going to be the primary difference between us.

You're actually placing more trust in the ideas of fallible men than you are in the infallible Word of God. You actually believe that the testimony of scientists trumps the words of Christ.

Paul warned that there was a war against the knowledge of God. Instead of beginning our reasoning process with God's word, we're starting with our own wisdom and judging the Word of God by it. In doing so, we become trapped by every wind and wave of doctrine.

It takes me back to the conservation Eve had with the Serpent. "Did God really say?"

And let me just say further, that a written account is actually considered very good evidence in courts of law, especially if it's well preserved and has multiple corroborating sources. We actually have a written testimony of the origins of the world, from an eyewitness (the Holy Spirit) which has been endorsed by Christ. All you have are ever-changing speculations from atheists and deists. I think evidentially I'm in better shape.
 
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mark kennedy

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I have been a young earth creationist, but have been recently convinced that the universe and earth is billions of years old. Two things convinced me: first, the scientific evidence--radiometric dating, astronomy, seem pretty clear and mathematical. Second, the YEC responses. They theorize things like God speeding up radiometric decay a billion times during the flood, and God creating starlight in transit. Both of these theories, I think, would make God a liar, specifically, lying to scientists. For example, for God to create Adam as an adult would give him a superficial appearance of age but would not be dishonest, but if God created Adam with scars already on his body, and signs of aging like mutations or damage in his cells, that would be lying on God's part, or would give reason to believe he had not just been created. That is the position the universe is in.

All we know about the creation of the earth is that it was in the beginning.

Some believe in biblical inerrancy and an old earth, but hardly anyone doubts the Bible but believes in a young earth. That made me wary of YEC.

You should be wary of the age of the earth arguments, they are irrelevant. Inerrancy is a reaction to atheistic philosophies that infiltrated the Church under the guise of Liberal Theology, which is quite possibly one of the more successful incursions of the Twentieth century.

YECs often talk like its God's word against man's, but in reality, both general and special revelation (nature and scripture) are equally from God, and both are interpreted by human reason with possibility of error, so to pit one against the other is no different from pitting one part of the Bible against another (like, say, rejecting Romans if it seems to disagree with James). Rather, we should always seek to harmonize the two. I find natural revelation to favor an old earth more clearly than special revelation seems to favor a young one, so I believe in an old earth.

Nothing doctrinal is involved in the age of the earth, whether the sun revolves around the earth, or what pagan myths say about creation. The doctrinal issues involve what the Scriptures say God created. While it does not explicitly give a date, we do know from the Scriptures an approximate date for the creation of Adam, the first parent of humanity:

29337-albums3499-49482.jpg


There is another doctrinal issue called original sin but we can start with this one.

I grew up reading every Creation magazine and Acts and Facts that came out, listening to YEC debates, and feeling pretty certain the science supported it. Reading a few atheist books confirmed they didn't use good arguments against creation, but old earth creationist books showed the age of the earth is well established scientifically.

Really, I always tried to get my hands on the actual scientific literature when possible, Darwinians are almost useless in that regards and the Creationists mostly write essays. I haven't seen a substantive debate on the subject in years, I did like the one the Intelligent Design guys put on with Hugh Ross and some of the other notorious Darwinians.

If it was only people like Dawkins that did origins science, I would agree we shouldn't trust their interpretations. But in reality, Christians are and always have been among those doing the science that shows the earth is old. The science behind the geologic column is older than Darwin.

I read Dawkins to and his focus is usually fossils and biology.

For God to make a universe only six thousand years old, but with starlight coming from places millions of light years away and showing supernova and other star events that never happened, and with a pattern consistently demonstrating an age of 14 billion years, such as the cosmic background radiation, the most distant galaxies looking younger (more tightly wound, etc.), and more, would be highly deceptive. It's more consistent with His glory that he would make a universe that was truly vast in space in time, rather than one that just appeared to be.

The age of the earth is irrelevant, I don't know what your hang up is with that.

The RATE project has concluded that the best way to harmonize radioisotope dating with a young earth is to assume that radioactivity went extremely fast at certain points in creation and the flood. There is no natural mechanism that would cause that, and if it happened it would fry all life on earth and make it permanently uninhabitable, so the only way it could have happened is if God did a series of miracles to cause it and to eliminate the effects of causing it. That seems like a total waste of miracles, which is not how God acts elsewhere, and the only purpose it could achieve is to deceive people about the age of the earth. God is not a liar, so he could not have done that. Therefore the earth is as old as radioisotope dating says. I have based that argument entirely on data provided by young earth creationists.

Yea, I don't know why they waste so much time on it myself.

Of natural and special revelation, natural is the one most certainly from God, because we know he is the creator whether or not we are certain that the men who wrote down the Bible were truly inspired. If the Bible had physically descended from heaven in front of thousands of witnesses, it would be different, but as it is, we have to take a small number of humans' word for it that what is written really came from God. I believe we have sufficient evidence, from the resurrection and gospel writers, to believe God inspired the Bible, but that evidence is not as certain as the evidence that God created the universe, which I believe we have almost deductive certainty of. Just as scientific truths come to most of us from others, so the scriptures were copied and translated by humans.

Let's get a few things straight because your getting the revelation doctrine confused with the canon of Scripture. The canon of Scripture is closed so no amount of radiometric dating is going to effect that. Revelation in nature tells us God's divine attributes, including the fact that God is Creator, so there is no excuse for rejecting that knowledge in unrighteousness, we all do it but only because we are sinners. That's where the original sin doctrine will come in if we ever get that far. Either way, the Apostolic witness isn't going to be called into question and neither are the Hebrew Scriptures, not because I say so but because that's what the phrase 'canon of Scripture' actually means.


Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Calminian

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All we know about the creation of the earth is that it was in the beginning.

Utter nonsense. We not only know the creation of the earth was in the beginning, we know several details about its formation. We know on day one it was made, but was still formless and void. This likely means it had no solid form yet. We know the waters were gathered together on day 3, and the dry solid land appeared and was named Earth. We know the vegetation that covered the earth was was made on day 3, and that on days 5-6 it was filled with living creatures.

And we know heaven and earth and the sea all were created in the 6 days, which are "the beginning." Ex. 20:11

Nothing doctrinal is involved in the age of the earth,

Ouch. Nothing could be further from the truth. The age of the earth directly affects our view of sin and death and God's view of goodness. If the earth is young, then death proceeded from Adam's original sin. All the pain and suffering we see today is the direct affect of sin entering into the world. If the earth is millions of years old then death and suffering existed long before Adam sinned. That would mean God called death and suffering "very good," which would contradict what is said about death in other places—namely that it is the last enemy.

There are huge doctrinal ideas wrapped up in the age of the creation.
 
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Percivale

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Ouch. Nothing could be further from the truth. The age of the earth directly affects our view of sin and death and God's view of goodness. If the earth is young, then death proceeded from Adam's original sin. All the pain and suffering we see today is the direct affect of sin entering into the world. If the earth is millions of years old then death and suffering existed long before Adam sinned. That would mean God called death and suffering "very good," which would contradict what is said about death in other places—namely that it is the last enemy.

There are huge doctrinal ideas wrapped up in the age of the creation.

I agree it can strongly affect doctrine, and that is probably the main thing that make old earth a harder belief for me to accept. But I remember that Adam was not the first creature to sin. Satan was already in the garden before that, and if he was able to control or impersonate a snake, might he not also have done harm to other parts of creation? And if the whole earth was perfect, why was being kicked out of Eden such a significant part of the fall story? Perhaps when Romans 5 says 'through one man sin entered the world,' Paul is using the word world as John 3:16 does, to refer to all humans. It would fit the context: 'thus death spread to all men.'

So you looked to atheists to inform you about presuppositions and world views? More red flags. How would an atheists be as good a source as God's word to a christian?
Actually, I read atheist books in order to 'have my senses trained by reason of use to discern good and evil,' and so I would not 'speak evil of things I do not understand.'

I have no idea where you got the idea from ICR, that God made the starlight in transit. The light-in-transit theory has never been a theory given notice by reputable creationists organizations like ICR, AiG, CMI, etc. So I'm curious where you got this idea from. Can you name the source the told you this?
I've read a lot of creationist writings, not sure which ones believe this. The explanation I liked best was based on relativity, with distant galaxies having faster time than earth, so they are much older even though created at the same time, but Hugh Ross says its not good science, and he would know. The dumbest explanation I've heard is that the speed of light is actually instantaneous, just slower when reflected and measured. What changed my mind though was radioisotope dating, not starlight. How do you deal with that?

And this perhaps is the most serious red flag of all. It's sounds like you reject the doctrine of inerrancy, which is definitely going to be the primary difference between us.

You're actually placing more trust in the ideas of fallible men than you are in the infallible Word of God. You actually believe that the testimony of scientists trumps the words of Christ.
I have doubts about inerrancy, true, but for me that was really a separate issue from the age of earth. I just don't know of a good reason to claim more for each book of scripture than it claims for itself, or that Jesus claims for it. Since Jesus is divine, I believe what he says about them, balancing his word and example in using them.

But, Calminian I want to challenge the idea that it's a simple dichotomy of man's word against God's. Do you really not have to trust any human sources in knowing the scriptures are God's word? Not the writers, copyists, or councils that decided the canon? Do you simply presuppose them? I'd love to debate presuppositionalism, it never made sense to me.
 
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Papias

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I see several threads here you started about the age of the earth. I wanted to chime in to support you by saying that one can be fully Christian regardless of one's answer on these questions - the age of the earth, recent dates (such as Mark's view of being open about older dates while taking a literalist view of the generations after Adam), and so on.

Also, I'd like to add another observation to support your acceptance of the old age of the earth. Yes, radioactive methods are reliable - as with all dating methods, careful methodology and examination and cross-testing of any assumptions are very important in that method.

Plus, we don’t have to rely on the results of a single dating method. There are well over forty different dating methods, both radioactive and non-radioactive, including geomagnetic polarity, Ar-Ar, dislocation content, Re-Os, fission track, coral layer, speleotherms, varves, historical documents and many more. Some are not even based on material from Earth, such as the helioseismic dating of the Sun.

The large number of methods available means that for a given method, a large number of samples are available that can be used to check the method chosen against many other different methods to see if they all agree with each other on the ages of many different samples. These kinds of tests have been done on method after method, confirming that they give accurate ages. For instance, an arrow found in lake sediment could be tested by dendrochronology (of the wooden shaft), amino acid racemization (of the sinew windings), obsidian hydration (of the arrowhead), varves (of the lake sediments it was found in), thermoluminescence (of the windings), and so on. If these different methods all gave the same age (their ranges overlapped) then it’s very likely this age is correct.

It's really hard to imagine several different methods just happening to all give the same "wrong" answer, isn't it? Old earth deniers are left saying that a bunch of different methods, that all give the same answer, are likely to be just "happening" to all agree. So I always ask them how that is, and they can’t answer.

An example for them – I ask: Isn’t the agreement of even just three methods pretty powerful evidence? I mean, if a smashed clock at a car wreck was stuck at 5:32, the nearby security camera taped the crash at 5:28, and a receipt with a time of 4:56 was found in the car, wouldn't it be hard to suggest a time other than around 5:30 for the crash? That's only 2+ pieces of evidence (the receipt only indicates a time after 4:56), and though the measurements don't agree exactly (5:28 isn't exactly the same as 5:32), they all are consistent with a crash near 5:30. In the real world, sample after sample, in place after place, hundreds of times, dates are shown to be consistent.

In practice, the dating methods are usually tested over dozens or hundreds of samples from the same series, using two or more methods for comparison (instead of the single artifact example above). For instance, series of layered deposits in a cave may be tested simultaneously by U-Th, speleotherm, and 14C dating, with each sample giving an age using each of the three methods, with the results agreeing. In this way, many thousands of tests have confirmed these dating methods, giving us a very useful clock for our understanding of the history of our Earth.

The key is that their creationist source is just throwing stones a single dating method. That won’t do it – the creationists have to explain why dozens of different methods, based on often completely different phenomena, tested over thousands of tests on hundreds of samples – all “just happen” to agree with each other.

In Christ -

Papias
 
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mark kennedy

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I see several threads here you started about the age of the earth. I wanted to chime in to support you by saying that one can be fully Christian regardless of one's answer on these questions - the age of the earth, recent dates (such as Mark's view of being open about older dates while taking a literalist view of the generations after Adam), and so on.

Yep that's me :wave:, your local Bible literalist.

Also, I'd like to add another observation to support your acceptance of the old age of the earth. Yes, radioactive methods are reliable - as with all dating methods, careful methodology and examination and cross-testing of any assumptions are very important in that method.

They do make Archaeology more interesting, the dating of Hazor, Jericho and AI always seems to be involved in carbon dating. Pottery is kind of easy to get an accurate reading and ash is harder to calibrate.

Plus, we don’t have to rely on the results of a single dating method. There are well over forty different dating methods, both radioactive and non-radioactive, including geomagnetic polarity, Ar-Ar, dislocation content, Re-Os, fission track, coral layer, speleotherms, varves, historical documents and many more. Some are not even based on material from Earth, such as the helioseismic dating of the Sun.

I find it so interesting that Catholics are always interested in astronomy. They love building observatories. The actual age of the sun does not interest me much.

...The key is that their creationist source is just throwing stones a single dating method. That won’t do it – the creationists have to explain why dozens of different methods, based on often completely different phenomena, tested over thousands of tests on hundreds of samples – all “just happen” to agree with each other.

In Christ -

Papias

It really has no bearing on our lineage when the earth, sun and stars were created, we only know it was in the beginning. Our first parent is another matter and you don't need a degree in astrophysics to understand it.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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Percivale

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So, Mark, you are not a presuppositionalist, and let science help inform your interpretation of the Bible, such as believing there are gaps in the Genesis genealogies because carbon14 dating shows that humans have been around for significantly more than 6000 years? If so, while I may doubt inerrancy a bit more than you, I pretty much see things the same way as you.
 
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