Revelation 12

[mythbuster]

This thread is to initiate FELLOWSHIP on Revelation Chapter 12. I understand that, with almost 100% certainty, we all share different views on the meanings and interpretations of the great visions in this chapter. Nevertheless other people will be reading our posts, and perhaps, through our fellowship and the Lord's mercy, there will be some building up of the Body.

This chapter begins with a great vision, that of the woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."

It is my OPINION that this women represents not Mary, nor Israel, rather she represents the totality of all of God's people. She is in travail to produce the man child, who will be caught up to the throne of God. The man child represents the overcommers, or the stronger part of God's people both from the Old Testament and New, who will be raptured to the throne. One of the reasons for my opinion is that in 12:17 the remainder of the woman's seed are those who keep the commandments of God, ie; Jews, and those that have the testimony of Jesus, ie; Christians. They will remain and pass through the great tribulation of three and one half years.

The fact that the man child is caught up to the throne while the rest of her seed remains on earth is one of the reasons why I believe in the partial rapture (not a popular belief today by any means.) And the fact that her seed is composed of Jews and Christians is why she can not be Mary or Israel.

 

[mythbuster]

After the great sign of the universal bright women is another sign, the red dragon. Guess who! Anyway the woman gives birth to the man child, seemingly right in the teeth of the red dragon. But the man child, the stronger part of the woman, is caught up to God's throne. The man child, who will rule the nations with an iron rod, signifies the overcomers ruling as co-kings with Christ during the millennium. But prior to that there is war in heaven and the dragon is cast down to earth. Don't want to be around for that. This is the beginning of the 3.5 year tribulation.

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

For couple of years, I have been printed-out and studied from a kabbalic point-of-view the bk of Revelation. This study is still on line. Just go to www.yashanet.com and go to their study department. It is an interesting approach. One Jewish Messianic believer told me that the writings in Revelations are quite simaliar with other writing in Torah kabbalah. ( Please note...This is not related to the other modern day or mystic/magical kabbalah stuff)

Shalom, David.

 

[Rafael]

This thread is to initiate FELLOWSHIP on Revelation Chapter 12. I understand that, with almost 100% certainty, we all share different views on the meanings and interpretations of the great visions in this chapter. Nevertheless other people will be reading our posts, and perhaps, through our fellowship and the Lord's mercy, there will be some building up of the Body.

This chapter begins with a great vision, that of the woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."

It is my OPINION that this women represents not Mary, nor Israel, rather she represents the totality of all of God's people. She is in travail to produce the man child, who will be caught up to the throne of God. The man child represents the overcommers, or the stronger part of God's people both from the Old Testament and New, who will be raptured to the throne. One of the reasons for my opinion is that in 12:17 the remainder of the woman's seed are those who keep the commandments of God, ie; Jews, and those that have the testimony of Jesus, ie; Christians. They will remain and pass through the great tribulation of three and one half years.

The fact that the man child is caught up to the throne while the rest of her seed remains on earth is one of the reasons why I believe in the partial rapture (not a popular belief today by any means.) And the fact that her seed is composed of Jews and Christians is why she can not be Mary or Israel.

I believe the woman is Israel because the entire promise or covenant of God is to the two houses of Israel who split up into the northern and southern kingdoms right after Solomon's kingdom. God makes many prophetic statements concerning these two houses specifically and even in the New Testament. Observe the new covenant and to who it is to:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

All the people that are saved are these two houses or the natural branches and then all the wild branches grafted in, as Paul explains in great detail in Romans 9, 10, and 11 so that we will not be arrogant enough to displace the natural branches of whom you may already be one without knowing, as the ten lost tribes were absorbed into the Gentile nations and these people, who were the majority of the Israelites, were to emerge later on in history as "Sons of the Living God". Is that a familiar term? Well, it is the prophecy of Hosea to the tribe of Ephraim who was the head tribe of the house of Israel - the northern kingdom.
Ephraim was the "firstborn" of God, and this designation was given as the double portion to usually the eldist son, but Jacob gave it to Ephraim, his grandson from Egypt - Joseph's son. The important blessing of the "sceptre" never leaving the hands of Juda was also given in this ceremony were Jacob passed on the promise of covenant with God (Gen. 49:10). There is a connection with the Church today and Ephraim, and it has to do with being "firstborn". Observe again:

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.


Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:


Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’


Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Jesus even said that He has come only to find the lost sheep of the house of Israel and that they would hear His voice.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

How does this effect Revelations? Well, if we don't really know who Israel is, then it can make what is already difficult to interpret even more difficult. Remember, that God's covenant is inclusive of all people, and that through Him scattering the ten tribes throughout the world as He did, and then sending a shepherd to gather the flock in Jesus, even more will come.
You will see that there are two witnesses before the world that believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. They are the Church, which I believe is the firstborn, Sons of the Living God, who received that promise through Ephraim (God's firstborn) and the ten tribes, and Judah who never gave up its identity with God. There is a large element or remnant today of Messianic Jews who believe in Messiah. Notice this verse from Revelations:

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went
to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments
of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Even the sins of the two houses before they were taken in captivity were reflected in the punishement God gave then for captivity. Israel (the northern kingdom) was always putting up shrines to other false gods and even under one evil king, put them in the main temple of worship. Finally, God let them be absorbed by the very unbelieving Gentiles they were always getting mixed up with and following after their strange gods. However, God never forgot His covenant or love to Israel. He never lost track of them even though they were scattered and forgot who they were and their heritage.

Jer 31:20 Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I
spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my
bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith
the LORD.


Hosea 8:8 Israel is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles Like a vessel in which is no pleasure.


Amos 9:9 "For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground.


Hosea 5:3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hid from me: for now, O Ephraim, thou committest whoredom, and Israel is defiled.

A large part of prophecy is given to these two houses coming back together. There are hundreds of prophetic statements as to this in the Old Testament. They may be for the millinnieum, but could be realized before this if not for the pride of men that caused the split in the first place. Jealousy and envy led to the seperation.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah,and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Zech 10:6-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together,for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

A good book that ties this all together in great detail is "Who Is Israel" by Batya Wooten. A large portion of her book can be read for free online at this link: http://www.aarons-advocates.org/BACONT.html IMO, it helps better understand prophecy a little better.

 

[Cliff2]

The woman here is God's true believers. Some may say it is the Church.

The true Church went into the wilderness for 1260 years as it say would happen.

The man child is Jesus Christ. He was caught up into heaven.

 

[freespirit2001]

Isn't the book of Revelation based on a Vision by St.John of Patmos?

I like the first passage:
"....A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars...Revelation 12:1
[bible]Revelation 12:1[/bible]


I have seen some art work done by Southwest Indians of this woman in these passages. Visions of the prophets ( especially of this woman in Revelation 12) are wonderful for artists to try to correlate, express and render themselves to see how the Spirit moves to actualize this vision and possibly to actualize how it existed with the prophet and the times of the God-inspired author of the passage was seeing this vision of this woman, and writing about this women, and how this vision of the woman evolves in the hearts and the collective consciousness (like a Jung Archetype) in the groups of believers studying this passage.

I would wonder if this passage actually existed in art, somewhere in time and history itself. This woman's image sounds like a archetypal doorway to me, as a symbol or picture of an archetypal image representing a door or a threshold of a sactuary. Could this image or imagery of the woman actually be the threshold or the doorway to something or somewhere---possibly that of the New Jerusalem? I think there are many things to consider about this woman and her presence in the Vision, and the archetypal meaning of what she represents to woman of our modern time, and women's rights and freedom in domestic and foreign lands and marketplaces. There are more deeper levels of meaning to this passage that has to be considered as allegorical in nature, relating to the times, the spiritual cosnciousness and the cultural movements in the society and international world around us.


I don't think much spiritual art work was done by the early christians during the tribulations of St.John and his writing of Revelation.

Perhaps if times were different back then, an artist would have been right by St.John's side painting the inspirations of the Spirit with him together, as well as having the "God-Inspired Vision" written down, or rendering some other kind of Sacred and spiritual cultural expression to the God-inspired message.

I am an artist myself, and would love to see this woman of Revelation 12 painted in other medias, and possibly on silk.

I also have another question, if she has any correlation to the woman in the Song of Solomon:
[bible]Song of Solomon 6:10[/bible]
Song of Solomon 6:13Return, return, O Shulamite; return, return, that we may look upon thee. What will ye see in the Shulamite? As it were the company of two armies.

 

[plmarquette]

The problem many have with both John 6.50 and the woman , child , and the dragon is that they are lone verses , not spoken of the same way elsewhere [ only 1 witness ]

2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2Cr 13:1 This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

it takes 2 points to denote a straight line , doctrine, dogma .... can take one point where every you desire ...

 

[@@Paul@@]

This thread is to initiate FELLOWSHIP on Revelation Chapter 12. I understand that, with almost 100% certainty, we all share different views on the meanings and interpretations of the great visions in this chapter. Nevertheless other people will be reading our posts, and perhaps, through our fellowship and the Lord's mercy, there will be some building up of the Body.

This chapter begins with a great vision, that of the woman "clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."

It is my OPINION that this women represents not Mary, nor Israel, rather she represents the totality of all of God's people. She is in travail to produce the man child, who will be caught up to the throne of God. The man child represents the overcommers, or the stronger part of God's people both from the Old Testament and New, who will be raptured to the throne. One of the reasons for my opinion is that in 12:17 the remainder of the woman's seed are those who keep the commandments of God, ie; Jews, and those that have the testimony of Jesus, ie; Christians. They will remain and pass through the great tribulation of three and one half years.

The fact that the man child is caught up to the throne while the rest of her seed remains on earth is one of the reasons why I believe in the partial rapture (not a popular belief today by any means.) And the fact that her seed is composed of Jews and Christians is why she can not be Mary or Israel.

I totally agree the man child pertains to the Overcomers... however, i do believe the woman depicts Israel.

If she pictured "all" of God's people, that would include the overcoming remnant of her seed - Israel is not raptured, the Jews are gathered into their land.

​

(Eze 20:42 KJV) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
(Eze 36:24 KJV) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
(Eze 37:12 KJV) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

​

 

[In Christ Forever]

If the woman is Israel and was giving birth to Jesus the "manchild", that would have to represent the House of Judah/Levi as that is the tribe Jesus was to come from. What is curious, is that it shows a "woman" later sitting on the same "dragon" and becoming a Harlot. I noticed this in my study of revelation. It also shows 2 different "types" time periods of the "woman". Any views on this? God bless.

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

reve 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

reve 17:33 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast [which was] full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

 

[James1979]

I agree 100% with cliff2

 

[freespirit2001]

I would like to get back to the first passage of Revelation 12:1 about this "Woman" and later touch on the imagery of the Red Dragon. I want ot address my thoughts and questions in a compartive of scriptures using references to the Kingdom of God in Matthew 23:13-36 and 2Thessalonians1:5-12.

So my focus and thoughts and questions are on the Woman and the Red Dragon imageries.

I also would like to bring up and ask about how the Lord used parables in his public speaking and what the meanings of using these allegorical descriptions about the message of the Kingdom of God to his disciples:

[bible]Matthew 13:11-17[/bible]Matthew 13:11-17
[bible]John 3:3[/bible]John 3:3
I believe the message here is we must have spiritual eyes to understand the message of the Kingdom of God...
[bible]Matthew 5:3[/bible]Matthew 5:3
[bible]Matthew 5:10-12[/bible]Matthew 5:10-12

[bible]Revelation 12:1[/bible]Revelation 12:1

I notice the twelve stars over the Woman's head need to be focused on more and more questions should be asked about them.

I like meditate on this proverb about eyesight and perception in oberving life and spirit in viewing the imagery of the stars:
[bible]Proverbs 20:8[/bible]Proverbs 20:8
We need spiritual sight and insight to accurately decern and interprete the imagery of the stars, the woman and the red dragon.

THE IMAGERY OF THE TWELVE STARS
In my opinion, I tend to view these stars as imagery foreshadowing the twelve doors of the New Jerusalem:
[bible]Revelation 21:10-14[/bible]
I see the arch of the twelve stars over the Woman's head as a symbol of a bridge. I don't know if other people have other opinions about this imagery.
I also see the stars as a symbol of our "mind's eye or eyes" or consciousnesses; as accuracy in our perception of spiritual and temporal matters; and as highly proactive and perceptive instincts about the care and safety about the Woman.....( hence her protection from the eagle from the red dragon)
I also see the stars as a crown of life personifying the consciousness of the New Jerusalem in the hearts and minds of the chosen people of the Lord.
I also would hope to see these stars as a brigde of the world religions and the sciences someday.

I would love to see those stars painted above her on a veil, with lenticular clouds below each star.

I perhaps, would like to see a surreal effect happen with the stars---having each star change into an brilliant perceptively piercing eye.....stars are powerful light, within and without us....

The Vision of St.John speaks of those who will receive "the morning star":

"He who conquers and who keeps my works in the end....I will give him the bright morning star."Revelation 2:28

"...I am the root and the offspring of david,the bright morning star..."Revelation 22:16

I see the morning star is the awakening of the social and spiritual consciousness of the true believers unto the times concerning the messages in these chapters of Revelation.

This imagery of the vision of St.John is so beautiful, as an infinitismal third person viewing this, I have feelings reading this passage as if it was viewed through great rejoicing of Spirit of the Vision, as if of sacred Hebrew (and Gypsy , Indian, Pakistani, Mid-eastern spiritual) song and dance.

I hope to get some response from this, and think about the red dragon at a later time....with those passages of the Kingdom of God.

 

[In Christ Forever]

If the woman is Israel and was giving birth to Jesus the "manchild", that would have to represent the House of Judah/Levi as that is the tribe Jesus was to come from. What is curious, is that it shows a "woman" later sitting on the same "dragon" and becoming a Harlot. I noticed this in my study of revelation. It also shows 2 different "types" time periods of the "woman". Any views on this? God bless.

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

reve 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

reve 17:33 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast [which was] full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

Also, Jeremiah is a prophecy against Jerusalem and appears to have the exact passage of Chapt 16 of Jeremaiah in revelation chapt 18 Almost looks like the House of Judah riding on the House of Israel to me. God bless.


revela 18:5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 "Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. 8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day -- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong [is] the Lord God who judges her.


Jeremiah 16:9 For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will cause to cease from this place, before your eyes and in your days, the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. 16 " Behold, I will send for many fishermen," says the LORD, "and they shall fish them; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. 17 "For My eyes [are] on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes. 17 "For My eyes [are] on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes. 18 "And first I will repay double for their iniquity and their sin, because they have defiled My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable and abominable idols."

Hosea 8:8 Israel[10 tribes] is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles Like a vessel in which [is] no pleasure.

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

 

[mythbuster]

There is more to this chapter. The woman after bringing forth the man-child, has to deal with the great red dragon who then persecutes the woman. I think he is really upset about losing his position in heaven due to the man-child being there, and goes after the women who produced the man-child. She finds some relief in the wilderness where she is nourished for 3.5 years. This would be during the great tribulation. He can't get at her there so he goes elsewhere to make war with the rest of her seed, both Jews and Christians.
Enter now the beast.
Antichrist.

 

[freespirit2001]