Rev 17:8 Reigning over the kings of the earth

[stinsonmarri]

Thanks, I had read a lot about Henry 1V of England and some about Henry 1V of France, but had not heard of Henry 1V of Rome. Why in the world would an emperer of Rome ever seek the favor of a Pope?

Have I said anything about the 1260 years?

Since apparently you want to know my personal thoughts about Daniel and Revelation, I will tell you I don't concern myself with research and debates on such matters, as I believe the simple Gospel of our Lord has nothing to do with such things. Just make sure your historical references are accurate.

Ricker:

Henry 1V of Rome was the German king who came bare footed in the snow before Gregory VII who had excommunicated him. He was given a reprieve and kept his throne. This is the proof to show clearly that the Papacy has power over the governments of Europe as the Bible clearly stated.

When Napoleon general lock the Papacy in his own prison the RCC never rule politically again however she still has embassies and is a part of UN. She also is the most powerful religious organization in the world and government of the Christian world recognize her as the holy father and her claim as Yashua on earth!


Your other comment is not correct because everything according to the Bible is important or it would not have been put there. 2 Tim 3:16, 17

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[OntheDL]

Thanks, I had read a lot about Henry 1V of England and some about Henry 1V of France, but had not heard of Henry 1V of Rome. Why in the world would an emperer of Rome ever seek the favor of a Pope?

Have I said anything about the 1260 years?

Since apparently you want to know my personal thoughts about Daniel and Revelation, I will tell you I don't concern myself with research and debates on such matters, as I believe the simple Gospel of our Lord has nothing to do with such things. Just make sure your historical references are accurate.

Not the emperor of Rome, but the emperor of the Holy Roman empire.

Holy Roman empire consisted mainly Germany, Holland, Belgium, Austria, eastern France, northern Italy, Czechslovakia, Poland...

The controversy between Henry IV and Gregory VII is known as the Investiture Controversy. Henry IV thought to have rights to invest bishops and appoint them to ecclesiastical positions within the empire. The pope opposed it. The king repudiated the Pope. Gregory VII excommunicated the king and absolved the oaths of loyalty of the princes made to him. Henry IV soon found himself isolated politically. He made the 'walk to Canossa' and stood bare feet in the snow for 3 days in 1077. The pope lifted the excommunication. But the German princes had crowned another king. After the war against uprising and rebellion, his son, Henry V in 1122 reached an agreement with the pope Calixtus II and surrendered the power to the papacy on bishop investiture. The political power of the empire was stabilised.

 

[ricker]

Not the emperor of Rome, but the emperor of the Holy Roman empire.

Holy Roman empire consisted mainly Germany, Holland, Belgium, Austria, eastern France, northern Italy, Czechslovakia, Poland...

The controversy between Henry IV and Gregory VII is known as the Investiture Controversy. Henry IV thought to have rights to invest bishops and appoint them to ecclesiastical positions within the empire. The pope opposed it. The king repudiated the Pope. Gregory VII excommunicated the king and absolved the oaths of loyalty of the princes made to him. Henry IV soon found himself isolated politically. He made the 'walk to Canossa' and stood bare feet in the snow for 3 days in 1077. The pope lifted the excommunication. But the German princes had crowned another king. After the war against uprising and rebellion, his son, Henry V in 1122 reached an agreement with the pope Calixtus II and surrendered the power to the papacy on bishop investiture. The political power of the empire was stabilised.

Interesting. How much do you know about, say, the English civil war?

 

[ricker]

Ricker:

Thanks! Can you tell me what part of what I wrote you don't believe?

stinsonmarri

I'm sorry if I came off as not believing you. I was merely checking your history as you neglected to mention which Henry 1V it was, and I only knew off the top of my head about the kings of England and France. I was pretty sure neither of them had grovelled before a Pope!

 

[ricker]

Ricker:

Henry 1V of Rome was the German king who came bare footed in the snow before Gregory VII who had excommunicated him. He was given a reprieve and kept his throne. This is the proof to show clearly that the Papacy has power over the governments of Europe as the Bible clearly stated.

When Napoleon general lock the Papacy in his own prison the RCC never rule politically again however she still has embassies and is a part of UN. She also is the most powerful religious organization in the world and government of the Christian world recognize her as the holy father and her claim as Yashua on earth!


Your other comment is not correct because everything according to the Bible is important or it would not have been put there. 2 Tim 3:16, 17

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

Study Revelation and Daniel to the smallest detail all you want. I don't ignore them, I take from them the big picture that God is in control and will triumph in the end.


I think it is too easy to be sidetracked and led astray by taking peoples interpretations of the multi headed lizards and many winged birds and such. Symbolic books are dubious places to establish doctrine.
The Gospel isn't about the many mouthed thingamabob. Reading, say, Galations or John or Hebrews is a much better way to get close to God and determine what His will is for us. Just my two cents since someone asked. I will retreat quietly.........

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Study Revelation and Daniel to the smallest detail all you want. I don't ignore them, I take from them the big picture that God is in control and will triumph in the end.


I think it is too easy to be sidetracked and led astray by taking peoples interpretations of the multi headed lizards and many winged birds and such. Symbolic books are dubious places to establish doctrine.
The Gospel isn't about the many mouthed thingamabob. Reading, say, Galations or John or Hebrews is a much better way to get close to God and determine what His will is for us. Just my two cents since someone asked. I will retreat quietly.........

Ricker, consider what the Bible says before dismissing the relevance of understanding prophesy...

Rev 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Seems like stuff the Lord wants us to know...

 

[ricker]

Ricker, consider what the Bible says before dismissing the relevance of understanding prophesy...

Rev 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Seems like stuff the Lord wants us to know...

Does the fact that Revelation was written by John to the early Christian churches when he was in exile and it was probably delivered through hostile hands say anything to you? Maybe written in a code of sorts for them? The Catholics barely let Revelation in the cannon when they were deciding which books to include. I still say an inspirational book, but not good grounds for establishing doctrine.

Edit to add: I appreciate your thoughts. I know you are thinking only in terms of my befefit. I haven't been to an SDA church in probably about a year, but I may go tomorrow. I'm not as against Adventists as you may think.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Ricker:

Both Henry IV of England and France never were excommunicated but they did grovel before the Pope. All of Europe was under the Roman Catholic control or a part of his vassal empire. It was during this time that the religion ruled over the kings that's why science and other things were held back for centuries because the Papacy was the Pontifex Maxtimus who refused certain knowledge or learning.

Pontifex Maxtimus: highest priest of Roman religion and official head of the college of pontifices. As the chief administrator of religious affairs he regulated the conduct of religious ceremonies, consecrated temples and other holy places, and controlled the calendar. During the time of the empire, and until Christianity became firmly established, the emperor was designated pontifex maximus. After the supremacy of Christianity, the popes assumed the title. The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia

In its current capacity, the Holy See may participate in debate at the United Nation’s General Assembly, just like the world body’s 185 member nations, and may vote at its policy-setting international conferences. . . Legal Times, Week of August 16, 1999

Since medieval times the episcopal see of Rome has been recognized as a sovereign entity. The Holy See (not the State of Vatican City) maintains formal diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, and also with the European Union, and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, as well as having relations of a special character with the Palestine Liberation Organization; 69 of the diplomatic missions accredited to the Holy See are situated in Rome. The Holy See maintains 180 permanent diplomatic missions abroad, of which 74 are non-residential, so that many of its 106 concrete missions are accredited to two or more countries or international organizations. The diplomatic activities of the Holy See are directed by the Secretariat of State (headed by the Cardinal Secretary of State), through the Section for Relations with States. There are 16 internationally recognized states with which the Holy See does not have relations. The Holy See is the only European subject of international law that has official diplomatic relations with Republic of China (Taiwan).From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see the Roman Catholic Church even after losing her vassal states is the only religious body that has her own country in a country and is recognized by other countries even China a communist regime. She is powerful and she will play a part in the end time as will Jerusalem who is recognized by the world as the only holy city. The Papacy and Jerusalem will unite and the Papacy is call the harlot and Jerusalem (where the Gentile/harlot will finally rule), is Babylon (the great city/Sodom), both will be destroyed by the beast. The beast/man was once a part of RCC who is seen riding the beast/man, but he will be the one that will destroy both the Papacy and Jerusalem in the world's final battle Armageddon or WWIII. Revelation deals with the Almighty Ones and Their proof of Universal rule and how everything here on earth will be destroy that goes against the Almighty Ones rulership. Earth will return back to the Almighty Ones who created it and the created creatures on this earth which includes man.

The entire Bible is important and I hope you do attend one of our churches and receive a blessing from the Holy Spirit. It was not the Catholic Church that allowed Revelation to be canonized, but Yahweh who used them for His purpose.

Happy Sabbath and many blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I still say an inspirational book, but not good grounds for establishing doctrine.

2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Btw, hope you have a great fellowship today and are filled by the Holy Spirit...

 

[Joe67]

Does the fact that Revelation was written by John to the early Christian churches when he was in exile and it was probably delivered through hostile hands say anything to you? Maybe written in a code of sorts for them? The Catholics barely let Revelation in the cannon when they were deciding which books to include. I still say an inspirational book, but not good grounds for establishing doctrine.

Edit to add: I appreciate your thoughts. I know you are thinking only in terms of my befefit. I haven't been to an SDA church in probably about a year, but I may go tomorrow. I'm not as against Adventists as you may think.

ricker,

Prophecy is the elementary converting power of the Lord.

1 Cor 14:24-25
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. KJV

This is the most elementary experience whereby men are given to believe in and worship God and to confess that God is with the people.

An advanced power of God through prophesy is witnessed in Paul's counsel to Timothy.

1 Tim 1:18-19
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; KJV

1 Tim 4:14-16
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. KJV

This power of prophesy and its attending gift, to enable the receiver to fight the good fight of faith in ministry as a soldier of Jesus Christ and gain the victory over the wicked one and bring others with himself, is of an advanced character of suffering than the elementary power that comes to the unbeliever and the unlearned believer. Timothy had already been a long student of the Old Testament and its witness in faith that the Christ must needs suffer to enter into his glory.

2 Tim 1:5-6
5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. KJV

2 Tim 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
KJV

Joe

 

[ricker]

Ricker:

Both Henry IV of England and France never were excommunicated but they did grovel before the Pope. All of Europe was under the Roman Catholic control or a part of his vassal empire. It was during this time that the religion ruled over the kings that's why science and other things were held back for centuries because the Papacy was the Pontifex Maxtimus who refused certain knowledge or learning.

Pontifex Maxtimus: highest priest of Roman religion and official head of the college of pontifices. As the chief administrator of religious affairs he regulated the conduct of religious ceremonies, consecrated temples and other holy places, and controlled the calendar. During the time of the empire, and until Christianity became firmly established, the emperor was designated pontifex maximus. After the supremacy of Christianity, the popes assumed the title. The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia

In its current capacity, the Holy See may participate in debate at the United Nation’s General Assembly, just like the world body’s 185 member nations, and may vote at its policy-setting international conferences. . . Legal Times, Week of August 16, 1999

Since medieval times the episcopal see of Rome has been recognized as a sovereign entity. The Holy See (not the State of Vatican City) maintains formal diplomatic relations with 178 sovereign states, and also with the European Union, and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, as well as having relations of a special character with the Palestine Liberation Organization; 69 of the diplomatic missions accredited to the Holy See are situated in Rome. The Holy See maintains 180 permanent diplomatic missions abroad, of which 74 are non-residential, so that many of its 106 concrete missions are accredited to two or more countries or international organizations. The diplomatic activities of the Holy See are directed by the Secretariat of State (headed by the Cardinal Secretary of State), through the Section for Relations with States. There are 16 internationally recognized states with which the Holy See does not have relations. The Holy See is the only European subject of international law that has official diplomatic relations with Republic of China (Taiwan).From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see the Roman Catholic Church even after losing her vassal states is the only religious body that has her own country in a country and is recognized by other countries even China a communist regime. She is powerful and she will play a part in the end time as will Jerusalem who is recognized by the world as the only holy city. The Papacy and Jerusalem will unite and the Papacy is call the harlot and Jerusalem (where the Gentile/harlot will finally rule), is Babylon (the great city/Sodom), both will be destroyed by the beast. The beast/man was once a part of RCC who is seen riding the beast/man, but he will be the one that will destroy both the Papacy and Jerusalem in the world's final battle Armageddon or WWIII. Revelation deals with the Almighty Ones and Their proof of Universal rule and how everything here on earth will be destroy that goes against the Almighty Ones rulership. Earth will return back to the Almighty Ones who created it and the created creatures on this earth which includes man.

The entire Bible is important and I hope you do attend one of our churches and receive a blessing from the Holy Spirit. It was not the Catholic Church that allowed Revelation to be canonized, but Yahweh who used them for His purpose.

Happy Sabbath and many blessings,
stinsonmarri

Yes, in the early 1400's when Henry 1V ruled, the Roman church was really the only player in the game, as far as Christianity went. The Reformation is what brought much more religious diversity and strife.

The whole Bible certainly is important. Just let it speak for itself without extra-biblical influences.

 

[ricker]

2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Btw, hope you have a great fellowship today and are filled by the Holy Spirit...

I don't think Timothy was writing about taking symbolic and apacalyptic passages and giving them modern, made up interpretations and arbitrarily assigning these salvational importance.

That said, I did have a good experience at church this morning. Neither of the two couples I know whatsoever were there, but it was a nice service. There were about 20 or 25 people there, and someone up front said how nice it was to have so many folks here this morning. They used to share a pastor and have him preach every other week, but now they recently found out they are now only going to have a pastor once a quarter. Sad, as there seems to be some good people there and when I visit, I almost always get a real blessing from the service. I heard talk about witholding tithes, but it didn't sound like they were going to yet. Too bad the GC can't find enough money from the more affluent churches to help the solid, but small, rural ones. I hope it all works out for them.

 

[Erik Nelson]

A thought on Revelation 17:8.
“...And the woman which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth."

This was prophecy, and history records one of the great fulfillments.
What follows is an example of the Church reigning "over the kings of the earth."

During the 1400's, an early reformer named John Huss journeyed to a Church Council in Constance [in what is today's Germany]. Huss carried with him a number of significant documents pledging his safe-conduct, but the most important of these was a safe-conduct from the Emperor Sigismund. A historian quotes this in full, “seeing it has become one of the great documents of history”. (From, History of Protestantism, J. Wylie.)


It was addressed "to all ecclesiastical and secular princes, etc., and to all our subjects."

"We recommend to you with a full affection, to all in general and to each in particular, the honorable Master John Huss, Bachelor in Divinity, and Master of Arts, the bearer of these presents, journeying from Bohemia to the Council of Constance, whom we have taken under our protection and safeguard, and under that of the Empire, enjoining you to receive him and treat him kindly, furnishing him with all that shall be necessary to speed and assure his journey, as well by water as by land, without taking anything from him or his at coming in or going out, for any sort of duties whatsoever; and calling on you to allow him to PASS, SOJOURN, STOP, AND RETURN FREELY AND SECURELY, providing him even, if necessary, with good passports, for the honor and respect of the Imperial Majesty.

Given at Spiers this 18th day of October of the year 1414, the third [year] of our reign in Hungary, and the fifth of that of the Romans."

Despite this pledge of safe-conduct from the Emperor, Huss was arrested about 3 weeks after he arrived in Constance. The historian continues,

“THE EMPEROR WAS TOLD THAT HE HAD NO RIGHT TO GRANT A SAFE CONDUCT IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE COUNCIL; that the greater good of the Church must over-rule his promise; that the Council by its supreme authority could release him from his obligation, and that no formality of this sort could be suffered to obstruct the course of justice against a heretic. The promptings of honor and humanity were stifled in the emperor's breast by these reasonings. In the voice of the assembled Church he heard the voice of God, and delivered up John Huss to the will of his enemies.”

This same Council proceeded to make the decree, that no faith is to be kept with heretics.

The wording of this decree, was that "by no law, natural or divine, is it obligatory to keep faith with heretics, to the prejudice of the Catholic faith." (L’Enfant)

_ _ _ _ _

Psalm 15:1-4
“Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
He that walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his heart... he that swears [i.e. makes a promise] to his own hurt, and changeth not.”

tragic irony that the pope who re-united the Body of Christ, Martin V on 11 Nov 1417, became the namesake of the re-division of the Church, by Martin Luther on 31 October 1517, almost exactly precisely 100 years later