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Rev 12:1 A Crown of Twelve Stars

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aReformedPatriot

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Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

I am interested in reading the antithesis of the Roman Catholic teaching on this verse. In OBOB I have read that this verse is reffering to Mary and is a proof text that Mary is indeed Queen of Heaven.

In Order to stem debate, and having my thread closed I'd appreciate Baptist thought, or any like protestant thought only. :) Thank you kindly.

The Context said:
Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.

Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

Rev 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Rev 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
 

SumTinWong

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My New American Bible (Saint Joseph Edition) says in its liner notes for this passage:
Verses 1-6; "The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon; "

Now this is a Catholic Study Bible, and has a blessing on the inside from the Pope himself. Who says and I quote:"On all who have contributed to this translation, and all who seek in its pages the sacred teaching and the promise of salvation of Jesus Christ our Lord, we gladly bestow our paternal Apostolic blessing."

So I have heard that people have called Mary the queen of heaven, and have even been witness to giant murials in the St Pauls here downtown Syracuse that has the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus, all crowning Mary in this manner.

Now I would heartily disagree with this kind of talk, as it is not based on anything scriptural. John new Mary. Mary was sent to live with him. If it was Mary, he would have said so...
 
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ZiSunka

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The woman with the twelve stars on her head can't be understood in isolation, that is, if you only read the verses that deal with her, you can't know who this person is. It could be any woman, and in fact, some mormons interpret her to be a human woman who because of her great faith, will be elevated to this position. Another psuedo-Christian group, the Children of Abraham, interpret this to be the second coming of Christ, a precursor to the third coming when he will be birthed by this woman so he can defeat the dragon and protect his true church, which is a precursor to his fourth coming, when he will split the sky open with trumpets on judgment day. And one other group I know of, the Followers of the Way, believe that this woman is one of them and that what she is birthing into the world is the new order of man, that is, a race of human beings that are perfect and indivincible and impentatrable to temptation. They believe this woman will be known because she will be born with 12 star-shaped birthmarks on her head. So interpreting this as being Mary is just one more interpretation of verses taken out of context.

By the way, in the 1990's a group of mormons who believed the interpretation that this woman would be one of them believed they had the prophesy that they should make human sacrifices to bring the end times about so she could begin her reign (the wife of the pastor believed it was her and she delivered the prophesy). End result was the killing of an entire family, husband, wife and four or five children, in Kirtland, Ohio. All were tried for the murders and that's when the story of the belief and prophesy came out. That's the danger in interpreting this passage in isolation, it makes it seem like this lady is a human being who has been brought to a special purpose to birth this child, and not what it truly is, a picture of Israel birthing the savior and then being chased out of their land by the vicious attacks of a great dragon (Roman empire).

Revelation is written in a code-language, not a plain language. It is full symbolism and it is very dangerous to interpret this woman as being a real person, because she is a symbol, not an actual person.

I found this in one of my mom's books (as you know I just moved back into my childhood home and am finding a lot of my mom's catholic things. It's from an evening course she took on Revelation at our local Catholic high school:

Who is the woman? That she is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars suggests she is the heavenly representative for something--what? Twelve connotes a connection to the twelve tribes of Israel. Is this woman then the heavenly Israel? Note, she is pregnant and about to bear a child (4) and that the dragon stands before her ready to devour the child. The woman gives birth to the child, "a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron... is snatched away and taken to God and his throne" (5). The woman flees into the wilderness and, like the Hebrew in Egypt, is rescued when she is given the two wings of an eagle and the river spewed from the mouth of the dragon is dried up by the earth: Exodus 19.4 "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself." That the child is to rule nations with a rod of iron suggests the Davidic Messiah. For John, Christianity was born out of the Hebrew tradition and its culmination in Christ, who is to be "snatched up into heaven," or resurrected.

An alternate interpretation is:

This sign in heaven announces a new section. This should be connected to the opening of God's temple in heaven in the previous verse, Rev 11:19. The 'woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head' is a clear reference to Joseph's dream (Gen 37:9) and therefore the woman represents the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph's dream depicts the sun and moon and eleven stars bowing down to him, this is realised when he became the second to Pharaoh and his brothers bowed down to him (Gen 43:26-29). The woman is the elect and in particular here she is the OT elect, who gives birth to the Christ (v5) and later she gives birth to the NT elect (v17). John sees a continuum between the OT and NT elect (see 21:12-14). Wilson says 'In scripture no sharp dividing line is drawn between the true Israel and the new Israel, because the people of the promise are one people, whether they lived before or after the coming of Christ'. But here she represents the OT elect, one of the few references in Revelation to the OT elect alone. Compare the heavenly glory of this woman, who represents the elect (the Bride Eph 5:22), with the earthly glitter of the harlot who represents the world, Rev 17:4. This woman stands in contrast to the harlot and also to the Queen of heaven.

Apparently even Catholicism doesn't necessarily teach that this woman is Mary.

I just found this:

The linkage of Mary to the woman of Revelation 12 first came from St. Epiphanius (d. 403), who warned Christians said, ""Let Mary be held in honour. Let the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary," but believed that there was some mysterious dispensation with regard to her death implied in the words of Revelations 12:14: "And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle that she might fly into the desert unto her place." He indicated that this passage may have been fulfilled in the ascension of Mary. But his interpretation was dismissed until the middle ages when several apparitions of Mary appeared to people in distress and her appearance had a halo of stars around her head.

So there it seems you have it. Apparitions of Mary appeared to some sailors and travellers to have a halo of stars around her head and that's when the link was formulated between Mary and the woman of Revelation 12.
 
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ZiSunka

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Did a little more study on this last night.

The idea that Mary is the woman with the crown of stars is NOT an official Catholic teaching, in fact, the church strongly opposes this interpretation. It is merely an unofficial tradition that was popular in the middle ages then died away, and is now back.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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lambslove said:
Did a little more study on this last night.

The idea that Mary is the woman with the crown of stars is NOT an official Catholic teaching, in fact, the church strongly opposes this interpretation. It is merely an unofficial tradition that was popular in the middle ages then died away, and is now back.
How curious :)

when did it start reappearing again?
 
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ZiSunka

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The Lord's Envoy said:
How curious :)

when did it start reappearing again?
Italy, 1800s. Apparently one of the convents was damaged and was being repaired and when workers took down damaged plaster, a mural was found depicting Mary with a crown of twelve stars hovering over her head. I'll see if I can find a picture to post. This isn't the picture, but it's one like it:


 
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aReformedPatriot

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fascinating. The stars kinda remind me of the EU Flag.

images


Any connection you think?
 
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Monica02

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lambslove said:
Did a little more study on this last night.

The idea that Mary is the woman with the crown of stars is NOT an official Catholic teaching, in fact, the church strongly opposes this interpretation. It is merely an unofficial tradition that was popular in the middle ages then died away, and is now back.
Actually the Church only has "official" interpretations of a very small number of passages. While Catholics are not free to interpret verses any way they want nilly willy, the interpretation of Bible verses is open to several possibilites provided the interpretations do not contradict Church teaching.
 
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newlite

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Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.

Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.

Rev 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

Rev 12:6
and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.


i thought the "woman" symbolies isreal. the "dragon" symbolies the devil. the "child" is the people of isreal. i read it in the left behind book. i found it a really good book that followed the versus really good. most of it is in symbolism though so i dont really now how everthing will unfold and its all rather hard to understand.....
 
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ZiSunka

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Monica02 said:
Actually the Church only has "official" interpretations of a very small number of passages. While Catholics are not free to interpret verses any way they want nilly willy, the interpretation of Bible verses is open to several possibilites provided the interpretations do not contradict Church teaching.
True, but it appears this is one of those small number of passages. The Catholic church does NOT teach that this woman is Mary, it teaches that this woman is Israel. Look it up for yourself. Every source I've looked to, all of them Catholic sources, the interpretation is the same with a footnote that interpretting this as Mary is incorrect.
 
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FreeinChrist

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The 'woman' of Rev. 12 is Israel. Christ came from Israel.
Remember that Jacob was renamed Israel. Now remember this dream of Joseph's:


Gen 37:9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, "Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

Gen 37:10 He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?"
 
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ZiSunka

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JeffreyLloyd said:
Why do you say this?
Well, as I previously posted, I have been doing a lot of study on this over the past couple days using Catholic sources and study aids, and all of them say this is not Mary because the events described following the birth of the Child are in the future, not the past. They are symbols of things to come, not things that have already happened, otherwise, it wouldn't be a vision revealing the future, it would be a rehash of things already know through the Gospels. The studies go on to say that some scholars see the woman as the OT saints and others see her as the Church in toto, but that in no case should she be interpretted to be Mary as an individual because the events are in the future.

Also, the events don't really correspond very well with Mary's life. Yes, she flew to Egypt, but where is the flood that was talked about. Even if you stretch your imagination to the breaking point, there was no flood in Mary's life from which she needed to be rescued, or that she was rescued from by the earth opening its mouth and swallowing the flood waters.

Anyway, read the above posts and you will see where the idea came from that the woman is Mary, but the Church's own teachings indicate that this woman should not be interpretted to be Mary.

It would be like John having a vision of the events of the life of Christ, it wouldn't be a prophesy, it would be a recitation of history, so these events have to be in the future, at least the future after John's vision, so it can't be Mary. Isaiah wasn't written after Christ was born, but before. Likewise Revelation wasn't written after the events concerning the woman, it was written as a glimpse, symbol-coded as it is, of the future.
 
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SumTinWong

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Mr. Lloyd,

I think why LL is saying this is because of the Catholic publications that both her and I have that say that the woman is Israel. One that I have is the transl;ation notes in the New American Bible (Saint Joseph Edition).

Anyway I do think the OP asked for this to be a Protestant / Baptist discussion, so if it is possible to continue this amongst ourselves that would be great. Perhaps you could ask someone through PM about this question you have?

Thanks,
Uncle Bud
 
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staugustine68

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Here is what I broken down..
The woman represents God's faithful people who have been wiating for the Messiah. The crown of the 12 stars represents 12 tribes of Isreal, God set apart the Jews for himself and that nation gave birth to the Messiah. The male Child is Jesus, born to a devout Jew name Mary.
 
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