Reunification...

[gtsecc]

Well, Wesley was a good Anglo-Catholic.
I think we would all agree to that.

Someoen correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't he was known as a high Churchman and theologically more Catholic than Calvinist.

 

[benedictine]

In my opinion, Reunification may be possible for Anglo-Catholics, but might not be possible for other Anglicans.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Someoen correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't he was known as a high Churchman and theologically more Catholic than Calvinist.

I always figured that John Wesley was a low-churchman given that the denomination he founded, the Methodist church, is generally what we Anglicans would consider low-church. Perhaps it was his followers who swung things in that direction after his death, though.

John

 

[CSMR]

Wesley was an Arminian who held a strange doctrine of perfection - the ability of saints to lead a perfect life, and the expectation that there would be some Christians who never commit sin. That would put him farther from Protestantism than Catholicism I suppose, but not very near either.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

In otherwords, full reunification happens when we all decide to become Catholics. If that's what we believed, we'd be doing it now.

If you think you can have an Anglican rite of Catholicism without actually submitting to the Pope's authority (instead of Rowans or the Queens) then you are correct, it won't happen.

 

[Bonifatius]

Someoen correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't he was known as a high Churchman and theologically more Catholic than Calvinist.

Hi!

I think it is difficult to mark Wesley with the label Anglo-catholic as that label did not exist in his time. Since then the Anglican church has developed more and more toward catholic understanding and liturgy, whereas the Methodists have moved more and more in the other direction.

He certainly was a high church man - as he frequently described himself. But this was more in the sense of the 18th c - meaning that he held the liturgy and authority of the Anglican church in high esteem and was very critical about dissenters like Presbyterians and Baptists. On the other hand the ritualism and elaborate liturgy of the Oxford movement would have been alien to his understanding, I would assume.

He also was a sacramentalist of format, receiving communion at least once or twice a week and even more often during special times (VERY unusual for 18th c Anglicanism!!). He believed in real presence which can be seen from his eucharistic spirituality, but when it came to describe how this presence comes about he would certainly be more on the side of a non corporal but rather spiritual presence of the risen Lord in the elements.

He submitted to the bishops of the church, but when it came to the question of ordaining "elders" for the Methodists in America in 1784 he abandoned the doctrine of Apostolic (episcopal) Succession and claimed his right as a priest to ordain other priests.

His doctrine of justification and good works is certainly far more catholic than protestant and fits well with the teaching of the council of Trent. Especially his understanding of prevenient grace!

All the best
Tom (Bonifatius)

 

[pmcleanj]

If you think you can have an Anglican rite of Catholicism without actually submitting to the Pope's authority (instead of Rowans or the Queens) then you are correct, it won't happen.

The vast majority of us are not under the authority of either the Queen or of Archbishop Rowan.

None of us are looking for having an "Anglican rite" of Roman Catholicism. What we are talking about is Reunification -- which starts with the recognition that we are already Catholic and that our submission to a foreign prelate is not a condition of being part of the church.

But I think you too are correct, it won't happen.

 

[Albion]

In my opinion, Reunification may be possible for Anglo-Catholics, but might not be possible for other Anglicans.

AHHH...thank you for raising a point that I was thinking about as this discussion has gone along. HOW can Anglo-Catholics be "reunified," I'm wondering. Anglo-Catholics are not a church unto themselves even if parishes here and there are famously A-C, so presumably negotiations between Rome and ECUSA, for instance, is not what you were thinking of.

It would be interesting to everyone, I think, to read--from you or anyone else who has given thought to this prospect-- the particular way in which this could happen. If reunification were to be merely conversion a la Newman, that route is open now.

 

[Iron Sun 254]

If you think you can have an Anglican rite of Catholicism without actually submitting to the Pope's authority (instead of Rowans or the Queens) then you are correct, it won't happen.

And there in lies the problem. First, as pmcleanj already stated, most of us are not under the authority of Archbishop Rowan or the Queen and some aren't even under the authority of the Anglican Communion. Secondly, the shortest route to reunification would be for the Pope to simply say "Anglicans are valid." That's it. He simply has to say "I accept that people can follow Christ without following me."

 

[gitlance]

And there in lies the problem. First, as pmcleanj already stated, most of us are not under the authority of Rowan or the Queen and some aren't even under the authority of the Anglican Communion. Secondly, the shortest route to reunification would be for the Pope to simply say "Anglicans are valid." That's it. He simply has to say "I accept that people can follow Christ without following me."

ARCHBISHOP Rowan Williams, please.

 

[Iron Sun 254]

Fixed...

and for the record we're not under the authority of Rowan Atkinson either.

 

[Colabomb]

If you think you can have an Anglican rite of Catholicism without actually submitting to the Pope's authority (instead of Rowans or the Queens) then you are correct, it won't happen.

I would settle for recognition of our orders.

 

[masuwerte]

Fixed...

and for the record we're not under the authortiy of Rowan Atkinson either.

LOL. Too bad, that would be interesting.

 

[gtsecc]

Has anyone seen the skit where Mr. Bean goes to church? They are singing "Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones."

 

[Cjwinnit]

If you think you can have an Anglican rite of Catholicism without actually submitting to the Pope's authority (instead of Rowans or the Queens) then you are correct, it won't happen.

Wow, many assumptions made. Yes, as such the Queen is the governor of the C of E. But there are 38 other national churches which are Anglican and none of them to my knowledge have the Queen of England as it's governor. And of course we submit to ++Rowan's authority, he's the archbishop, but then again, only in southern England..

 

[pandg]

Apparently Archbishop Rowan Williams will be attending the new pope's inauguration

 

[merechristian]

I have been attending a1928 bcp(t.a.c.) parish on and off for the past year,thought i had found a home but now theres rumors the t.a.c is heading for rome and will be under the authority of the see of rome,anyone know about this?and what would the specifics be?i,m married to a catholic and attend mass at her parish i have respect for the r.c.church but i just want to be a traditional anglican. imay have to either go back to lutheranism or try the charismatic episcopal church as the episcopal churches her are way to liberal for me,does anyone know anything about the charismatic episcopal church? in christ,mere christian

 

[Albion]

I have been attending a1928 bcp(t.a.c.) parish on and off for the past year,thought i had found a home but now theres rumors the t.a.c is heading for rome and will be under the authority of the see of rome,anyone know about this?and what would the specifics be?i,m married to a catholic and attend mass at her parish i have respect for the r.c.church but i just want to be a traditional anglican. imay have to either go back to lutheranism or try the charismatic episcopal church as the episcopal churches her are way to liberal for me,does anyone know anything about the charismatic episcopal church? in christ,mere christian

I can't find anyone outside of the TAC who thinks this proposal has a snowball's chance in August of actually succeeding. Therefore, you could sit tight and trust that it's all talk.

On the other hand, you are with a church that intends to make itself more like the RCC doctrinally and in worship even if Rome doesn't come across, so it's a question if that would leave you in a traditional Anglican Church or not.

If you are not a practicing charismatic or pentecostal, the Charismatic Episcopal Church would not be a good choice, in my opinion. However, it isn't an Episcopal/Anglican church anyway, despite the name. Got any Continuing Anglican or Reformed Episcopal Churches nearby other than the TAC?

 

[benedictine]

I will submit to the Bishop of Rome in Primacy, but not infallibility. Theologically, I am closer to Roman Catholic than anything else. Liturgically, I'm a mix of Anglican, RC, and EO. I pray every day for the reunification of the church. If we do, then we can provide a valuble and strong witness to the rest of the world, especially to those in the Mid East and Medditeranian.

 

[benedictine]

I would settle for recognition of our orders.

I wish. Maybe Pope Benedict will do that at his inagural mass with ++Rowan Williams there. (If he does, he'll knock the Roman Curia back to the stone ages, though. )