sovereigngrace
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YOu really think that?????
You do not even understand what the term resurrection means if you believe your own writing!
The word resurrection is: anastasia which mean a standing up AGAIN! In order for us to be resurrected spiritually, we had to be alive spiritually at one point, then died spiritually and then raised AGAIN spiritually!
No where do we see a person resurrected spiritually! We see being born of spirit, we see being born AGAIN (anew), we see being made a NEW creature for the old is passed, but we do not see any human (exept maybe adam and eve) being alive spiritually, died spiritually then restored spiritually.
Prior to the first resurrection there would be one big group, that being the dead. When the first resurrection occurs some of that group of the dead live again at that time, while the rest of them don't, thus how there can be rest of the dead following the first resurrection. The point being made about the souls of the martyrs John sees, is not that they remain in that state, not that they live and reign with Christ in that state, but because they have part in the first resurrection they no longer need to remain in that state, thus they are then bodily living and reigning with Christ instead.
To be resurrected means to live again. These martyrs in Revelation 20:4, do they need to live again after they have been martyred?
The question that then needs to be asked and answered is this. In what sense do they need to live again after they have been martyred? In the same sense Christ needed to live again after He was martyred, that He needed to live again bodily, or do they need to live again in some other sense altogether after they have been martyred?
we are born spiritually at salvation!
I asked some questions in another thread and received the following correct replies:
1. Would humans be able to be with God in heaven if they are not in Christ?
No, you must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of God.
2. Do humans have to be born of the Spirit to be in Christ?
Yes.
SCRIPTURES RELATING TO THE RESURRECTION
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
The above is referring to a bodily resurrection. Let's see if we can ascertain if any of the verses below are referring to a spiritual resurrection:
(A) BODILY RESURRECTION
John 6:40 (words of Christ): And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Cor 6:14 And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.
NOTE 1:
There is no New Testament verse where the Greek word anastasis (resurrection) is talking about anything other than the bodily resurrection of the dead. See for example:-
Mat 22:23; Mark 12:18; Luk 2:34; Luk 20:27; John 5:29; Acts:- 4:2; 17:18; 17:32; 23:8; 24:15; 2 Tim 2:18).
NOTE 2:
Likewise, there is no New Testament verse speaking about being raised up from death that is not speaking of being raised up bodily - they all refer to the bodily resurrection from the dead, example:-
Matthew:- 11:5; 16:21; 17:23; Mark:- 6:14; 14;28; Luke:- 7:22; 9:22; 20:37; John:- 12:1 & 9 & 17; Acts:- 2:24 & 32; 3:15 & 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30 & 34 & 37; Romans:- 4:24 & 25; 6:4 &9; 7:4; 8:11 & 34; 10:9; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:12-17 & 29 & 32 & 35 & 42-44 & 52-54; Gal 1:1; 1 Thess 1:10; 2 Tim 2:8; 1 Pet 1:21; Rev 1:18.
Romans 8
10 and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.
CHRIST'S RESURRECTION:
Rom 4:22 And therefore (Abraham's faith) was imputed to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised (egeiro) up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised (egeiro) again for our justification.
As we can see, the bodily resurrection from the dead is a major theme in the New Testament, and is a major part of the gospel.
(B) BEING BORN FROM ABOVE
John 3:3 KJV
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (Greek: anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Strongs: G509
00509 G509 ἄνωθεν anōthen an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above again from the beginning (very first) the top.
JOhn 3:3 Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
John 3:5-7 (Young's Literal Translation)
Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
Compare the above with John's statement below:
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BASED ON THE ABOVE FACTS
(you can answer them if you like but I'm not demanding you do - I'm placing them here for consideration):-
1. Have we risen from the dead bodily?
2. Does being born from above imply birth, or bodily resurrection from death?
3. Did we die for the sins of the world and rise again from the dead? Or did Christ die for the sins of the world (and our sins) and rise again from the dead?
4. If we are born from above by the Spirit, and the Spirit is Christ's Spirit, are we IN HIM who died and rose again from the dead by virtue of our birth?
5. Are we in Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead positionally by virtue of our having been born of His Spirit and by virtue of His bodily resurrection?
Or is it by virtue of our resurrection?
6. Are those who are born from above and found in Christ found IN HIM due to their works?
Or are they born from above and found in Christ because of Christ's works?
7. Did Christ rise again from the dead spiritually, or did He rise again from the dead bodily?
8. Remember that we are told, regarding the resurrection:
Rom 6:3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
1 Cor 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits (aparche) of those sleeping he became,
for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again (anastasis, resurrection) of the dead,
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
Therefore, bearing in mind that the Greek word anastasis (resurrection) and the concept of being raised from death in the New Testament is always talking about the BODILY resurrection, does the following mean that we are resurrected already?:-
Eph 2:6 and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.
Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
9. Does Eph 2:6 and Col 3:1 mean that we are already resurrected?
Or does it mean that we are not yet resurrected, but we are POSITIONALLY in Christ who is risen?
10. When in time does Paul say we will be resurrected?
11. Does being born from above mean we are resurrected?
AM I WRONG to say the following?
From all that the New Testament says regarding the resurrection, am I wrong to say that:-
1. NOWHERE in the New Testament do we see being born again from above by the Spirit of Christ being called a "resurrection" - we HAVE TO read such a notion INTO the scriptures in order to maintain that belief.
2. By virtue of our birth from above we are found IN CHRIST who died and was raised, and therefore we are now positionally with Him and have been raised with Him - THIS FACT is the guarantee, the deposit, of our coming inheritance in Christ, and our resurrection:
Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
3. By virtue of our birth from above we are NOW positionally in Christ's death and resurrection because for those who have been born from above by the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ lives in our spirit, and our spirit lives in our soul, and our soul lives in our body. This is why we cannot die:
John 11: 25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live.
John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
NOT THE HOUSE THAT JACK BUILT BUT THE HOUSE THAT GOD BUILT
Christ in us and we in Him (John 15:4). God's Spirit in our spirit, our spirit in our soul and our soul in our body
- but this is not the house that Jack built - it's the house that God built:
1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
Therefore we live in the knowledge that because of Christ's resurrection (which is a bodily resurrection), THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BORN FROM ABOVE will be bodily resurrected when Christ returns - but those who have died in Christ will rise first and those who are still alive will be changed and rise up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:16-18).
AM I WRONG TO CONCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:
1. Due to the fact that NOWHERE does the New Testament call being born from above either a "resurrection", nor "the first Resurrection", those who read "first resurrection" into a birth of the Spirit from above, are reading INTO the New Testament what is not there?
2. The scriptures show, when using exegesis instead of eisegesis, that the first (protos) resurrection following Christ's, who is the firsfruit (aparche) of the resurrection, is this one:
1 Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit (aparche), and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first (protos) resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:3-6).
To add to that since I'm not disputing anything you said. And it's called being born again. And if the first resurrection is meaning the same thing, it would be meaning resurrected again. If one needs to be resurrected again, when was the first time they were resurrected? If someone needs to be born again, we at least know when the first time they were born is meaning.
You guys want everyone to smoke the same pipe you've smoked.Saying you refuse to answer an apt and simple question re Rev 20, I will try another:
What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct judgment days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Saying you refuse to answer an apt and simple question re Rev 20, I will try another:
What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct judgment days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
So according to you, when someone hears the gospel and believes, then figuratively speaking he gets beheaded, and he dies with Christ who died bodily nearly 2,000 years ago, but the believer only dies with Christ figuratively speaking (even though Christ was crucified, not beheaded) and figuratively speaking the believer spiritually rises from the dead with Christ's bodily resurrection, and all this causes the believer to be born from above in whichever century the believer was born physically, and miraculously rise from the dead spiritually even though until this point he had never been alive spiritually and died spiritually, but all this only happens by virtue of all the figurative stuff, and so the believer has been figuratively speaking walking around headless for the last nearly 2,000 years, which figuratively speaking is a thousand years.Where is there any mention of the beheaded souls in heaven having been resurrected (v4)? They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...this is the first resurrection. Which is not bodily, but spiritual through the resurrection of Christ, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1Co 15:50). The rest of the dead do not live and reign with Christ a thousand years, so how can they be among the first resurrection? The rest of the dead are in fact those who will be bodily resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment after Satan has his little season. They are not the living and reigning with Christ, they are "THE DEAD".
LOl. Toooooooooooooo bad. So you won't read it. Nooooooooooooooooooo problem.Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long!!!
Through birth from above.How is a sinner raised from death to life biblically?
So according to you, when someone hears the gospel and believes, then figuratively speaking he gets beheaded, and he dies with Christ who died bodily nearly 2,000 years ago, but the believer only dies with Christ figuratively speaking (even though Christ was crucified, not beheaded) and figuratively speaking the believer spiritually rises from the dead with Christ's bodily resurrection, and all this causes the believer to be born from above in whichever century the believer was born physically, and miraculously rise from the dead spiritually even though until this point he had never been alive spiritually and died spiritually, but all this only happens by virtue of all the figurative stuff, and so the believer has been figuratively speaking walking around headless for the last nearly 2,000 years, which figuratively speaking is a thousand years.
Truly pipe-smokin' stuff! Enjoy it. Clearly no one and nothing except the return of Christ will stop you from smokin' it.
Through birth from above.
If you don't believe the words of Jesus, you won't believe how someone is resurrected with Christ, and you will invent ways that don't exist (which you have done very, very well)
How can you rise from the dead before you died?Is not birth from above receiving spiritual life from above? Sounds like rising from the dead; i.e. resurrection spiritual life!
How can you rise from the dead before you died?
It's because of your spiritual birth that you never die or become separated from Christ when you die physically. It has nothing to do with "resurrection" because you can't be resurrected if you're not dead.Through His Spirit giving life to my spirit when I believed. For before that time I was dead in trespasses and sins, and knew not Christ. Without being raised from spiritual death to spiritual life through His Spirit, I would be like those who die in unbelief, and know nothing but darkness and silence after death until the bodily resurrection on the last day. Then to be judged by what is written in the books, and the book of life, and my fate would be the second death which is the Lake of Fire. Praise God, I have been raised to spiritual life through His Spirit in me, and when I die my spirit, through the Spirit of God in me will go a spiritual body to the Kingdom of Heaven.
It's because of your spiritual birth that you never die or become separated from Christ when you die physically. It has nothing to do with "resurrection" because you can't be resurrected if you're not dead.
If we're not alive spiritually when we die a physical death then we will not go to be with the Lord - but those who are alive spiritually were born from above by the Spirit of God:
John 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
John 3:5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
Since the day of your spiritual birthday, when you were born from above by the Spirit of God, the Spirit of God lives in your spirit which lives in your soul which lives in your body. This is why you will never die even though we die physically. Nothing to do with "resurrection". You can't be resurrected if you're not dead.
Here's my reply:I guess copy and paste from one thread to the other is the play of the day. So here you go!
So our body doesn't really die when it breathes its last? Are you being serious, or continuing in your sarcastic manner? You're argument is that death of our body means we don't really have spiritual life through His Spirit in us when our body breathes its last??? When our body dies without the Spirit, we know nothing. But we have much evidence in Scripture (especially Revelation) that death for believers does not mean silence and darkness, but rather ascending to heaven and worshiping, praising, and even singing songs to the glory of God. But you insist death of our body means silence and darkness? Why would you deny the truth, when Christ tells us that even death cannot keep us from His love?
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.Is not birth from above receiving spiritual life from above? Sounds like rising from the dead; i.e. resurrection spiritual life!
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
According to revelation, those who are raised from the dead were beheaded because they were testifying of Jesus.
If you had taken part in this first resurrection, could you please tell me how long did you have to wait after you was beheaded till you was raised from the dead?
You guys want everyone to smoke the same pipe you've smoked.
According to you, when someone hears the gospel and believes, then figuratively speaking he gets beheaded, and he dies with Christ who died bodily nearly 2,000 years ago, but the believer only dies with Christ figuratively speaking (even though Christ was crucified, not beheaded) and figuratively speaking the believer spiritually rises from the dead with Christ's bodily resurrection, and all this causes the believer to be born from above in whichever century the believer was born physically, and miraculously rise from the dead spiritually even though until this point he had never been alive spiritually and died spiritually, but all this only happens by virtue of all the figurative stuff, and so the believer has been figuratively speaking walking around headless for the last nearly 2,000 years, which figuratively speaking is a thousand years.
You can protest all you like but I've told you that this isn't the kind of school where we'll promote you the next level "anyway" when you've failed dismally to get the basics. You don't qualify for the next level. It's sad, I know, but you'll have to live with it, because until you go back to basics first and believe the Word of God and the gospel without putting meaning into it that isn't there, you do not qualify for an answer to your question.
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
According to revelation, those who are raised from the dead were beheaded because they were testifying of Jesus.
If you had taken part in this first resurrection, could you please tell me how long did you have to wait after you was beheaded till you was raised from the dead?
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