Resurrection Disproves Pop Culture End Time Teachings

Daniel Martinovich

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The doctrine of general resurrection is an easy to understand example of what is wrong with pop culture end time prophecy teachings. It clearly shows how people misunderstand the nature of the illustrations Bible prophecy uses. The Biblical doctrine of general resurrection is that there is immediate bodily\physical life after death. Not physical as we know physical , that is flesh, but physical nonetheless. We are a spiritual beings that have spiritual bodies just like the angels but that live inside, and, are connected to a flesh body. When we put off these flesh bodies we, will immediately go to our destinies of heaven or hell.
That is general resurrection and is a doctrine taught in the Bible in opposition to the many false teachings like reincarnation, materialism, annihilation, soul sleep and yes, a future event called "the" resurrection where God uses the molecules of dust our flesh bodies became to make new bodies with.
This is so clear that most Christians intuitively believe it already despite the confusing false teachings they sort of accept about a one or two time future event called "the" resurrection tied to their Bible prophecy teachings. Here is a very short, very easy to read article that goes over the scriptures that teach this if your interested.
Resurrection
 

Douggg

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The Resurrection, to them who's physical body have died in Christ is the redemption of their body.

To them who have not yet died, Look up for your "redemption" draws near, is the redemption of the bodies of them who are alive at the time.

There is no immediate resurrections following the deaths of individuals, the remains of those bodies are still in the graves - so you are wrong about that in trying to define a general resurrection.

A person's soul is redeemed immediately upon receiving Jesus. It is the soul that goes to heaven immediately upon departure, death of the body, from this world.

I agree that we are spiritual beings in that is our essence. Our souls is the uniqueness of us as individual spiritual beings - which distinguished each of us, one from another.

There will be some sort of body given to departed souls in heaven instantaneously at the time of death, although it will not be the resurrected glorified incorruptible bodies of the blessed hope. We don't know a whole lot about that body, although it too will not be corruptible. It is not a resurrection, however, as you are trying to package it.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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The Resurrection, to them who's physical body have died in Christ is the redemption of their body.

To them who have not yet died, Look up for your "redemption" draws near, is the redemption of the bodies of them who are alive at the time.

There is no immediate resurrections following the deaths of individuals, the remains of those bodies are still in the graves - so you are wrong about that in trying to define a general resurrection.

A person's soul is redeemed immediately upon receiving Jesus. It is the soul that goes to heaven immediately upon departure, death of the body, from this world.

I agree that we are spiritual beings in that is our essence. Our souls is the uniqueness of us as individual spiritual beings - which distinguished each of us, one from another.

There will be some sort of body given to departed souls in heaven instantaneously at the time of death, although it will not be the resurrected glorified incorruptible bodies of the blessed hope. We don't know a whole lot about that body, although it too will not be corruptible. It is not a resurrection, however, as you are trying to package it.

Got scripture on that Doug; Cause I sure do in the first section of that link I put up. Why don't you tell me why it doesn't say what it says to validate your conjecture.
 
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I thought Doug's post was good until the 'some other kind of body' section that was not the glorified body. I hope we aren't thinking too much.

If it means the same thing as Daniel M's some other kind of physicality, let's not forget that 'there is no sun because God and the Lamb are the light.' That's not 'some other kind of physical.'
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Matthew 22: 23-28. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished, it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: It was not unusual for Christ to disagree with culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today, as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true. Maybe an example is in order to bring the gravity of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who was a professing Christian, his parents and siblings being professing Christians also. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It is comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "he is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.
There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body: For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven. The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. Much like Christ in his resurrected yet glorified body. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not physical as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.
Next are three bible stories that demonstrate point 1 again but also point 3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body. Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day.
2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31. Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.:
We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, taken directly to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, and they have the appearance of angels. Again if resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah more like "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are like the angels physically.

Still showing scriptural examples of the 1st point we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell: Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. First, It needs to be pointed out that this is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there was a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Number two, these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Number three, the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Number four, he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. Again how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of past resurrection (past to us.)
 
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Manasseh_

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We are a spiritual beings that have spiritual bodies just like the angels but that live inside, and, are connected to a flesh body. When we put off these flesh bodies we, will immediately go to our destinies of heaven or hell.

spirit bodies that live inside flesh bodies..............?? you're describing incarnation and reincarnation..............transmigration of the soul, call that what you will but it's not how scripture defines a human soul
 
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The doctrine of general resurrection is an easy to understand example of what is wrong with pop culture end time prophecy teachings. It clearly shows how people misunderstand the nature of the illustrations Bible prophecy uses. The Biblical doctrine of general resurrection is that there is immediate bodily\physical life after death. Not physical as we know physical , that is flesh, but physical nonetheless. We are a spiritual beings that have spiritual bodies just like the angels but that live inside, and, are connected to a flesh body. When we put off these flesh bodies we, will immediately go to our destinies of heaven or hell.
That is general resurrection and is a doctrine taught in the Bible in opposition to the many false teachings like reincarnation, materialism, annihilation, soul sleep and yes, a future event called "the" resurrection where God uses the molecules of dust our flesh bodies became to make new bodies with.
This is so clear that most Christians intuitively believe it already despite the confusing false teachings they sort of accept about a one or two time future event called "the" resurrection tied to their Bible prophecy teachings. Here is a very short, very easy to read article that goes over the scriptures that teach this if your interested.
Resurrection

Been trying to say this for a minute now....I agree with all except annihilation,as the soul that sins shall die,never to be anymore.........
 
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spirit bodies that live inside flesh bodies..............?? you're describing incarnation and reincarnation..............transmigration of the soul, call that what you will but it's not how scripture defines a human soul

It's exactly how scripture decribes our soul,from my understanding....Paul explains it well......We have two bodies ...We don't have a soul,we are a soul,the flesh was made for our soul to chill out in,and at death or the last trump which ever comes first,we the soul steps out......
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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spirit bodies that live inside flesh bodies..............?? you're describing incarnation and reincarnation..............transmigration of the soul, call that what you will but it's not how scripture defines a human soul

No I am describing exactly what the scripture says we are. Provide chapter and verse please for what you are saying. And where pray tell did I describe reincarnation or transmigration? No where but your imaginative and accusing hallucination.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man
1 Co. 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,...44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Not a living soul my friend a living spirit! The body dies when the spirit leaves it not when the "soul" leaves it. There is a flesh body and a spiritual body not a soul body. And guess what, animals have spirits too.
Ecc. 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Angels aren't called souls, they're called spirits. God is a spirit for that matter. So get off your high horse with your stupid accusations that every time you see someone say something different than you think "occult!!!" Your not the man of scripture you think you are. Oh and by the way. the way the scripture defines the human soul as thus:
Gen 2.7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. What do you think that breath is my friend? Man became a soul when the breath of life, the spirit, was joined with a flesh body.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Been trying to say this for a minute now....I agree with all except annihilation,as the soul that sins shall die,never to be anymore.........

I guess I can just rip this page out of my Bible then right?Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
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Maybe rip out Romans 8 as well where it speaks of the whole creation groaning and waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Attacking the sure foundation of the gospel of God's Beloved Son is futile..

Redemption is not resurection.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Then by all means preach what Paul is speaking of here brother..

Gladly,
Redemption means purchasing or winning back that which was previously lost. Ransomed may be a good synonym. What does that have to do with our flesh bodies? Well number one they are dying. So we groan within ourselves because of that. What is God's answer? Well let me tell you what it is not first. There is no specific promise because we have been ransomed that our flesh bodies will live forever. Now, I guess, since you believe in a resurrection of all flesh bodies, (if I understand you correctly), you would say there is.



What I want to point out is what in fact is specifically promised concerning our flesh bodies that......It is my guess, I may be wrong, you do not believe the ransom of our bodies cover. (ie, if the conditions are met)
1. Divine healing from sickness, disease and injury. Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sicknesses, and carried our infirmities....5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Matt. 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Psalm 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Now this specific promise tying the healing of our bodies directly to the atonement and the forgiveness of our sins is in the Bible over a half dozen times. My guess? I may be wrong, but chances are you reject this as part of the redemption of our bodies
2. A very specific promise of the deliverance of the believer due to the war in Judea in 70 AD. That they would not reap what others sowed in this great day of judgment when the Lord came to judge the nation for the murder of the saints.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws nigh. A few sentences earlier he says what is redeemed. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Hopefully your saying why? Why would God promise these things as part of the redemption of the flesh body? Simply: If the conditions are met; that we may fully run our individual; course and not be prevented from doing that by the evil that exists in this world.
3. Number three you probably agree with some of it. Redemption so that we can attain to the resurrection of life and escape the resurrection of damnation. Code for when you die you go to heaven or hell.
4:The redemption or the world.
There are over a 100 chapters of prophecy and promise that speak of a time period after the fall of the Roman empire, 1453 AD. In nations that meet the conditions laid out in scripture. That within those geographical areas. God's people will have the opportunity, (not automatically,) to walk in all the earthly promises of God made to the saints in ages past that did not come to pass in their generations. As this prophecy surmises in a few words. Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Again why? Why did God promise what is evidently begun to come upon us in this age. One answer: Because of the reason he created mankind in the first place. That we may raise Godly children, (that God can populate heaven with and share the joys he himself has.): Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. You see Old timer. If, we say lived in communist Romania. If we were caught teaching your kids the Gospel. They would torture us to death and throw our kids out into the street where they would have to prostitute themselves just to get bread. Anybody caught helping the kids would get the same sentence the parents got. This was the story of many a believer in those days. So... Gods will, the reason he created mankind in the first place could never really be done, at least in the way he envisions.

So here I have offered three reasons for the redemption of our bodies that, like I said, you probably reject. What you put in the place of these three things? A resurrected flesh body????? Something no one else in heaven seems to need and... not promised in scripture. In fact spoken against.
1st Co 15: 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?36 Thou fool, that which thou slowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be

You can't help but think I'm sure that either I am way screwed up in my view of scripture or you are. At least comparing what I have seen you write to what I write. It is one or the other. think about it. I am for you not against you.
 
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2. A very specific promise of the deliverance of the believer due to the war in Judea in 70 AD. That they would not reap what others sowed in this great day of judgment when the Lord came to judge the nation for the murder of the saints.

That's all I needed to hear..

Truly amazing.. It ALWAYS comes down to Israel..
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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That's all I needed to hear..
Truly amazing.. It ALWAYS comes down to Israel..

So all that and all's you do is have a hallucination about what I think of modern Israel? I guess I am being kind of hard on you. In case you didn't know it though I quoted Jesus about ancient Israel and he used much harsher language than me.
Matt. 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
I bet you never noticed that this prophecy proceeds Matthew 24 by just a few steps out of the temple? Making this part of Matthew 24 which you say prophesies to modern Israel but I say prophesies to ancient Israel. Who would say these things about modern Israel that loved it? Not me because I know these things belonged to ancient Israel. What about you though?

So what do I say about modern Israel? This was from another thread.
It is kind of difficult to know the very tiny tiny tiny number of prophecies in the OT that are referring to the modern nation of Israel. The reason for this is that all the major prophecies are referring to the people of faith of all nations, Jew and Gentile, who in fact are the true children of Abraham.
( Gal. 3: 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.) So, I know there are, or at least must be a few prophecies regarding the modern nation of Israel but I don't know which ones they are because most of them, no matter what the insistence of dispensationilists, are referring to the people of faith through Christ both Jew and Gentile. The couple of dozen OT chapters about the New Jerusalem are a perfect example of this.
Here however is the main prophecy that the founding of the modern nation of Israel is at least a partial fulfillment of. It is from Paul and my guess is he got it from the OT. I am going to interpret it also and some will freak.
Romans 13: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved......(Verse 26 refers to those of faith of all nations in case anyone is wondering- Chapt. 6:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed) Back to chapter 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Now here is the interpretation. The fullness of the Gentiles coming in is referring to the time when enough Gentiles get saved and through their influence nations get founded on Biblical principle. (Like the USA) This according to Bible prophecy would not start happening till after the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453 AD. When peoples sufficiently come under the influence of Biblical principle, they would begin to show mercy to the physical descendants of Abraham. Modern Israel is a manifestation of that. What better way to show mercy to a demonically persecuted people than by supporting them having their own nation and being able to defend themselves against Satan's genocidal minions. Beyond this we are also seeing a great outreach to the nation with the Gospel. Many millions will be saved I think.
 
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Manasseh_

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No I am describing exactly what the scripture says we are. Provide chapter and verse please for what you are saying. And where pray tell did I describe reincarnation or transmigration? No where but your imaginative and accusing hallucination.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man
1 Co. 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,...44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Not a living soul my friend a living spirit! The body dies when the spirit leaves it not when the "soul" leaves it. There is a flesh body and a spiritual body not a soul body. And guess what, animals have spirits too.
Ecc. 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Angels aren't called souls, they're called spirits. God is a spirit for that matter. So get off your high horse with your stupid accusations that every time you see someone say something different than you think "occult!!!" Your not the man of scripture you think you are. Oh and by the way. the way the scripture defines the human soul as thus:
Gen 2.7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. What do you think that breath is my friend? Man became a soul when the breath of life, the spirit, was joined with a flesh body.


your ad hominems aren't going to validate your false premise and only help to show your frustration when someone disagrees with it.........there is no "general resurrection" taught in scripture and there are no spirit beings living inside us, we are mortal beings and return to dust when we stop breathing, ONLY through Christ is there resurrection and that has an appointed time made by God, the only "hell" there is for man is the grave, the lake of fire has not been prepared yet, Christ also made it clear that ONLY he ascended to heaven (God's Throne) and no other human has, Peter said David has not ascended and David was said to be a man after God's own heart............so your premise is false on a number of it's points

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

there is a clear contradiction in your premise and these verses and I haven't even posted a fraction of all the verses regarding the prophecy of resurrection

BTW.........the spirit or rather RUACH (Hebrew) is the breath of GOD which cause creatures to become alive , that's what God breathed into man and that's what returns to God when we die and go to the grave

transmigration /
reincarnation (ˌriːɪnkɑːˈneɪʃən)
n
1. (Theology) the belief that on the death of the body the soul (spirit) transmigrates to or is born again in another body
2. (Theology) the incarnation or embodiment of a soul (spirit) in a new body after it has left the old one at physical death
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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your ad hominems aren't going to validate your false premise and only help to show your frustration when someone disagrees with it.........there is no "general resurrection" taught in scripture and there are no spirit beings living inside us, we are mortal beings and return to dust when we stop breathing, ONLY through Christ is there resurrection and that has an appointed time made by God, the only "hell" there is for man is the grave, the lake of fire has not been prepared yet, Christ also made it clear that ONLY he ascended to heaven (God's Throne) and no other human has, Peter said David has not ascended and David was said to be a man after God's own heart............so your premise is false on a number of it's points

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

there is a clear contradiction in your premise and these verses and I haven't even posted a fraction of all the verses regarding the prophecy of resurrection

BTW.........the spirit or rather RUACH (Hebrew) is the breath of GOD which cause creatures to become alive , that's what God breathed into man and that's what returns to God when we die and go to the grave

transmigration /
reincarnation (ˌriːɪnkɑːˈneɪʃən)
n
1. (Theology) the belief that on the death of the body the soul (spirit) transmigrates to or is born again in another body
2. (Theology) the incarnation or embodiment of a soul (spirit) in a new body after it has left the old one at physical death

I provide scripture that gives very clear cut examples of what I am saying, including hell Manasseh. Here's the thing. The vast vast vast majority of CHRISTIANS who read the scriptures I provided will agree with me based on them. They may not realize that they fly in the face of their end times teachings but they will agree. It's to clear. Plus, who says anything about a "new or another" body??? You, not me.
Matthew 22: 23-28. The same day the Sadducees came to him (Jesus), which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him………… 29. Jesus answered and said to them, You err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32. I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living 33. And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine. Jesus directly used the term “the resurrection” to describe the fact that the patriarchs were alive, not dead and the multitude was astonished by this statement. Why would that be? The belief that there was life after death was held by the vast majority of the multitude. They were certainly not astonished that Jesus would say the Patriarchs were alive anymore than Christians today would not be astonished, it is something they already believe. One can only assume they were astonished because they understood Jesus to say the Patriarchs were already resurrected, something that they understood to be a one time future event at the end of the world. As Martha states here: John 11: 23. Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again. 24. Martha said to him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: It was not unusual for Christ to disagree with culturally accepted beliefs of his day. What is strange, is that this scripture messes with consensus views of Christians today, as if nothing has ever changed in what believers hold to be true. Maybe an example is in order to bring the gravity of this scripture to light. Say there was a funeral of a child who was a professing Christian, his parents and siblings being professing Christians also. How often would their fellow Christians seek to comfort them with the words, "your child is in a better place , he is with Jesus now alive and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." It is comforting and true! Yet if someone said the same words like this: "he is with Jesus now resurrected and happy and will be in heaven waiting for you." There would be looks of puzzlement, people may be offended, in fact the person in question may get a call from the pastor. Yet this is exactly how Jesus used the word resurrection, to describe the fact of immediate life after death that has nothing to do with dead bodies made alive, graves opening or future events.
There is something further to notice about Jesus’ answer in Matthew 22:30 concerning the physical nature of the simple life after death resurrected body: For in the resurrection they ….. are as the angels of God in heaven. The Bible calls angels spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Are they not all ministering spirits..... Yet angels throughout the scripture have physical bodies. They may not be physical as we understand physical, but in the scriptures they eat, drink, appear, disappear, walk through walls, are constantly mistaken for men, and take on different form, walk in fire, etc. etc. Much like Christ in his resurrected yet glorified body. The point being is that our "inward" man is a spirit, just like the angels are spirits. We are not a cloud or a mist that floats around when these bodies die. When we step out of these bodies we step out on feet, we have legs, we have a body. It is physical, just not physical as we know physical right now. This can be seen in great detail in the scriptures below.
Next are three bible stories that demonstrate point 1 again but also point 3 where a mans earthy physical body was changed into a heavenly physical body. Deuteronomy 34: 5. So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab , according to the word of the Lord. 6. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his tomb unto this day.
2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Luke 9: 28. About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up to a mountain to pray. 29. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30. Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31. Appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.:
We have two men. One of them, Moses; died, buried, his body still in the ground. The other Elijah, taken directly to heaven. Yet here they are, both speaking to Jesus with the same bodies: they are alive, and they have the appearance of angels. Again if resurrection is a one time future event how did this make it into the Bible? Moses has the same body as Elijah, Moses dead and buried and Elijah more like "raptured." See how this fits into the narrative of Jesus that in the resurrection they are like the angels physically.

Still showing scriptural examples of the 1st point we have a story that includes someone who did not go to heaven but hell: Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. First, It needs to be pointed out that this is not the end of the world; the rich man still has unbelieving kinfolk on earth, and Jesus said there was a certain rich man, indicating this happened in the past, before Christ and the NT. Number two, these individuals have physical bodies that are recognizable; the rich man recognizes both Lazarus and Abraham. Number three, the use of this language: he lifted up his eyes and saw; he is thirsty and wants a drop of water on his tongue because he is tormented in fire, clearly indicating a body. Number four, he still cares for the welfare of his family even though he is in hell. These are not awaiting resurrection, they are already resurrected and it is the past. Again how can it be said that the Bible teaches a one time future event called the resurrection when we have these examples of past resurrection (past to us.)
 
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Manasseh_

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I provide scripture that gives very clear cut examples of what I am saying, including hell Manasseh. Here's the thing. The vast vast vast majority of CHRISTIANS who read the scriptures I provided will agree with me based on them. They may not realize that they fly in the face of their end times teachings but they will agree. It's to clear. Plus, who says anything about a "new or another" body??? You, not me.

way too much said in response here, it would take 3 or 4 pages to respond to all this, I will respond to a few things here, you're the one who describes that there is a spirit being "inside" us, here's your quote since you seem to have already forgotten it..........

"We are a spiritual beings that have spiritual bodies just like the angels but that live inside, and, are connected to a flesh body. When we put off these flesh bodies we, will immediately go to our destinies of heaven or hell. "

your premise does fit the definitions I supplied of reincarnation and or transmigration.......and as I pointed out earlier scripture says we don't ascend to heaven at death, the verses I gave as reference contradict your premise, also the lake of fire has not been prepared as of yet, this "hell" as a place of torments and such is invention from many influences, ie, Greek Mythology and other numerous pagan sources........the RCC adopted a number of these pagan beliefs and attempted to stamp them as christian doctrine, protestants having kept a number of these beliefs even after coming out of this church in protest.......

I will respond to a few points

you made reference to Moses and Elijah.........Christ told his apostles that what they had seen was a VISION
Matthew 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

you're mistaking a vision as being a real time event

also you implied that Elijah "went to heaven" but scripture says he was still here on earth some 12 to 16 years after he was taken into "heaven", even writing a letter to the new King and had it delivered by Elisha
2 Chronicles 21:12
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

..........and you can easily read the whole chapter and what the letter was about, the point being simple Elijah did not ascend to the 3rd heaven (God's Throne) as popular belief tends to imply
.........this response is already getting lengthy,........maybe in future replies you can stick a few points or so since time and space tend to impede long drawn out replies
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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way too much said in response here, it would take 3 or 4 pages to respond to all this, I will respond to a few things here, you're the one who describes that there is a spirit being "inside" us, here's your quote since you seem to have already forgotten it..........
"We are a spiritual beings that have spiritual bodies just like the angels but that live inside, and, are connected to a flesh body. When we put off these flesh bodies we, will immediately go to our destinies of heaven or hell. " \\
MMM, no..What I said is that we are spiritual beings that live inside of a flesh body. You say "we have a spirit being living inside us." The us to you is the flesh body. The us to me is the spirit. Big difference.
your premise does fit the definitions I supplied of reincarnation and or transmigration]
Your hallucination of what I said might fit the definitions of reincarnation or transmigration. Perhaps the real problem here is that all you really have to discern my words is the imagination of your own heart.

.......and as I pointed out earlier scripture says we don't ascend to heaven at death, the verses I gave as reference contradict your premise, also the lake of fire has not been prepared as of yet, this "hell" as a place of torments and such is invention from many influences, ie, Greek Mythology and other numerous pagan sources........the RCC adopted a number of these pagan beliefs and attempted to stamp them as christian doctrine, protestants having kept a number of these beliefs even after coming out of this church in protest.......


I guess I should just rip this page out of my Bible then. Thanks for saving me from the RCC.
Luke 16: 19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. 20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and you are tormented. 26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there. 27. Then he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house: 28. For I have five brothers; that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. 29. Abraham answered him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30. And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. 31. And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

you made reference to Moses and Elijah.........Christ told his apostles that what they had seen was a VISION
Matthew 17:9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. you're mistaking a vision as being a real time event.

People don't hold conversations with visions that are not real time events.

also you implied that Elijah "went to heaven" but scripture says he was still here on earth some 12 to 16 years after he was taken into "heaven", even writing a letter to the new King and had it delivered by Elisha 2 Chronicles 21:12
And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

I guess prophets don't always write letters in real time. That after all is what makes them prophets.

ONLY through Christ is there resurrection and that has an appointed time made by God, the only "hell" there is for man is the grave, the lake of fire has not been prepared yet, Christ also made it clear that ONLY he ascended to heaven (God's Throne) and no other human has, Peter said David has not ascended and David was said to be a man after God's own heart............so your premise is false on a number of it's points

So...what are all these folks doing in heaven multiple chapters before what you call the resurrection? Rev.7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
John 11:25. Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
 
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