Response to Tall's announcement

[NightEternal]

I no longer consider myself Adventist. This is not at all what I expected for my life. But it is where I am at. I will be changing my icon immediately.

I hold no ill will against the church. It taught me about Christ and was my spiritual home for many years. But I cannot agree with it any longer.

I was going to stay as a progressive, but that just isn't working.

Tall, I stood behind you when you were questioning here as a pastor. When certain Trad dogs barked at your heels and pressured you for your resignation (in the most shameful fashion I might add), I had your back. When Sophia was treated badly by some here for openly rejecting EGW, I tried to rise to her defense. And while you may have forgiven and forgotten these crimes against the two of you, I have not. I have stored those disgraceful reactions to your questioning in the back of my mind as evidence that the spirit which drove the fundamentalists to destroy Ford's ministry has not died out in the least. It only lies dormant, waiting to rear its intolerant, ugly head, biding its time, ready to tear down any SDA minister who dares question, seeking more pastoral victims.

Any church which does not allow its clergy to honestly and openly question is worthless, and might as well be discarded in the trash-heap alongside the tyranny and intolerance of Rome.

So, this recent announcement comes as a bitter disappointment, and it is with great sadness that I watch yet another couple who could have been invaluable to the cause of SDA reform head out the back door.

The fundamentalists could care less of course. They have thier pound of flesh and blood and who cares if we lose more Ford's and Tall's to other denominations? They stubbornly clutch thier precious IJ/Heavenly sanctuary doctrine and gladly say adieu to what amounts to them as nothing more than just a couple more apostates who rejected the 'truth'.

I wish you didn't have to take it to these lengths, but you must do what you must do.

As for me, I still believe there is enough doctrinal truth in this church, even in spite of its problem areas, to stay put.

If you still hold to the Sabbath, I would highly recommend to the two of you consider the Seventh-day Baptists as a new church family.

Godspeed and good luck. Please continue to pray for those of us who choose to stay and fight intolerance, legalism, phariseeism, incomplete atonement, righteousness by diet, lack of assurance of salvation, perfection heresy and EGW veneration.

 

[StormyOne]

christian reform is needed, thus as Tall remains a christian I don't see a problem.....

 

[Sophia7]

Thank you, Night. I would like to see reform in the SDA Church, too, but I no longer think that I can play a part in making it happen. My disagreements with SDA doctrine are too fundamental at this point for me to feel right in calling myself an Adventist anymore. I would rather not share all of them here, but I wouldn't be leaving and facing the condemnation of so many people without good reasons.

I'll still be around here, but I won't be participating as a member in voting and making rules and stuff like that.

 

[moicherie]

If an Adventist is one who is considered someone who believes and is looking forward to the return of Christ then I see no reason for you to leave this forum.

God bless you both

 

[Bourbaki]

Not only did I see it coming but I think it's following gospel principles that all pastors that don't believe in the foundations of Adventism should seek employment elsewhere.

 

[StormyOne]

Not only did I see it coming but I think it's following gospel principles that all pastors that don't believe in the foundations of Adventism should seek employment elsewhere.

especially if those foundations are something other than Christ.... Christ and Christ alone.... I think Paul said that...

 

[Bourbaki]

especially if those foundations are something other than Christ.... Christ and Christ alone.... I think Paul said that...

The issue here is the investigative judgment, which Jesus taught in Matthew 25:14-30. If an Adventist pastor refuses to believe in what Jesus taught, then he has no right to transmit his unbelief and confusion in a Seventh-day Adventist church.

 

[StormyOne]

The issue here is the investigative judgment, which Jesus taught in Matthew 25:14-30. If an Adventist pastor refuses to believe in what Jesus taught, then he has no right to transmit his unbelief and confusion in a Seventh-day Adventist church.

taught in your opinion... one that I do not share.... Jesus didn't teach it...

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Strange there is not one church in the world that finds the IJ in Matt 25:14-30 Probably because it is a parable which tells people that they must use what they have for the Master rather then doing nothing with it. Yet in the confused mind somehow something so simple becomes the code for 1844 and the IJ. It is what is wrong with Adventism. People who can't even intelligently interpret the Bible.

(Mat 25:14 NIV) "Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them.

(Mat 25:15 NIV) To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey.

(Mat 25:16 NIV) The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more.

(Mat 25:17 NIV) So also, the one with the two talents gained two more.

(Mat 25:18 NIV) But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

(Mat 25:19 NIV) "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them.

(Mat 25:20 NIV) The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

(Mat 25:21 NIV) "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

(Mat 25:22 NIV) "The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

(Mat 25:23 NIV) "His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

(Mat 25:24 NIV) "Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.

(Mat 25:25 NIV) So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

(Mat 25:26 NIV) "His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?

(Mat 25:27 NIV) Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

(Mat 25:28 NIV) "'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

(Mat 25:29 NIV) For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

(Mat 25:30 NIV) And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

 

[Bourbaki]

It is what is wrong with Adventism. People who can't even intelligently interpret the Bible.

People who believe in The Spiritualistic Philosophy of A. Graham Maxwell have no right to talk about the Bible. What the masquerading demon has taught while pretending to be the channeled Jesus in the New Age book, A Course In Miracles, Vol. 1, pp. 84-85, is to be compared to lengthy excerpts from an evangelistic sermon series that Maxwell gave at Andrews University.

 

[StormyOne]

People who believe in The Spiritualistic Philosophy of A. Graham Maxwell have no right to talk about the Bible. What the masquerading demon has taught while pretending to be the channeled Jesus in the New Age book, A Course In Miracles, Vol. 1, pp. 84-85, is to be compared to lengthy excerpts from an evangelistic sermon series that Maxwell gave at Andrews University.

people who continually refer others to the ummmmm interesting tirades on their personal website should probably not talk about the bible either....

 

[NightEternal]

Okay, something for careful consideration. Here is what Ellen has to say:

"There is a faithful, fearful record kept of them and mortals will be judged according to the deeds done in the body. Your deeds and your idle words are written in the book. Your conversation has not been on eternal things, but upon this, that, and the other-common, worldly conversation that Christians should not engage in. It is all written in the book." (Testimonies For The Church Vol.1, p. 158)

And this:

"Many have a form of godliness, thier names are upon the church records; but they have a spotted record in Heaven. The recording angel has faithfully written thier deeds. Every selfish act, every wrong word, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling, is faithfully chronicled in the book of records kept by the recording angel." (Testimonies For The Church Vol.2, p. 442)

But what says the Word?

"If you O lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?" (Psalm 130:3)

"Love is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." (1 Corinthians 13:5)

Bear in mind that the SOP quotes are directed towards Christians. Bear also in mind that the traditional interpretation of the IJ doctrine makes it clear that, in close parallel to the earthly sanctuary type, it is the sins of God's people that are under consideration and that it is the sins of God's people that 'defile' the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly sanctuary.

Is sin a commodity that can be fed-exed here and there, transported to different areas of the Heavens? Does this not make a mockery of the beautiful symbolism of the earthly type that pointed towards Christ?

Am I to assume that Jesus is so petty and malicious that He will retrieve our sins from the deepest depths of the ocean and that which was supposed to have been forgotten and removed as far as the East is from the West will now be brought back to the fore for all to see and consider in the Heavenly records? Am I to believe that my God is a liar and He really does not forget anything but takes names with frightening precision?

How is it possible for God to have the sins on record for review when He is supposed to have forgotten them?!

Ellen's words and the traditional IJ doctrine are enough to spiritually paralyze and cripple any well meaning Adventist who desires to be obedient. While she nor the church had this intent in mind, that is exactly the effect they will have and have had.

"It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around thier necks than for them to cause one of these little ones in the faith to stumble." (Luke 17:2)

If the traditional understanding of the IJ is not a doctrine that has tripped up and brought confusion and grief to many a poor soul, I do not know what is. It is nothing more than a spiritual handicap. What doctrine has caused more cognitive dissonance and pain than this embarrassing belief?

Witness Desmond Ford's ministerial credentials ripped away and his fate sealed until his death, forever branded an apostate pariah by the Adventist church, his reputation tranished, his name damaged beyond repair, his memory eternally branded in the minds of the church as an example of those who would dare challenge this sacred cow of a doctrine.

Look upon the beloved, late Raymond Cottrell as he spends years upon years in a desperate attempt to make some sense of this belief, studying it in the original Hebrew from every angle possible. Witness his tears of frustration as he finally concludes that it is impossible to gain any such belief from the Bible alone. See him as he waits until retirement before he comes forward with his findings, having been silenced up until then by fear of his own church! FEAR OF HIS OWN CHURCH!!! What kind of lunacy is this?

See the mass exodus of intelligent, bright, educated, committed Christian individuals and ministers as they finally leave the Adventist church in frustration over the IJ.

Why does it have to be this way? For God's sake, what belief is worth maintaining at the expense of all this pain and upheaval? Can we justify preserving doctrine at the expense of ruined lives, ruined careers and spiritual devastation?

 

[Bourbaki]

people who continually refer others to the ummmmm interesting tirades on their personal website should probably not talk about the bible either....

Do you think that your Jerry Springer neutrality on life and death issues will be rewarded by God or have you already settled on death?

 

[NightEternal]

The Adventist administration has painted itself into an impossible corner with regards to 1844 and the IJ. They have pandered to the historic, ultra-conservative Adventist segment for too long and now they can never even consider giving up the IJ even if they wanted to. They have made it so that every succeeding administration will have to uphold this doctrine or face the wrath of the right wing segment in the church (who, of course, control the church financially.)

Since Glacierview there has been no hope of ever turning back. The utter duplicity of asking a pre-eminent scholar and expert on the Reformation Gospel to assemble a huge dissertation of his study on the sanctuary question and then not even look at it! What a disgrace!!! This is what happens when you have an Ellen White worshipping administration that are way out of thier field of expertise. Not one man on that panel of Pharisees had even a quarter of the knowledge and integrity of Ford and they sit in judgment of this fine Gospel reformer? Give me a break!!!

Apparently when Ford was to go before the committee and defend his findings, Raymond Cottrell took him aside and told him: "Des, you should know that they have not even read your study." Can you imagine the sinking feeling in Ford's stomach when he finally realized that there was never any intention on the part of the administration to consider his exhaustive work? That it was nothing but a set up, a kangaroo court to make him an example and they had already decided his fate? That he was never going to walk out of that meeting still a minister if they could help it? He was to be the scapegoat, the sacrificial lamb.

When a group of leading Adventist scholars met in a private room to vote on Ford's findings, Cottrell and a few others had to leave the room so that the negative vote could be unanimous. The majority of scholars actually agreed with Ford's research initially, but when it became apparent that Ford was going down they sold out to keep thier jobs.

For shame!!! What a completely disgusting display of backroom politics and spinelessness! What a traitorous administration. The spirit of president Butler cackles and mocks while Ford is cast off like yesterday's garbage. Hear the cheers of Andreason, Douglass, Pippim, Kirkpatrick, Paulson, Larson, Crews, Batchelor, Priebe and Standish echo throughout the halls of eternity as Ford is disgraced and given the right boot of fellowship. They love it! They relish the sight of Gospel Reformation utterly destroyed in one fell swoop! They love seeing the mass exodus of ministers weeping as they leave the church in disgust at the Satanic hatred kindled against Ford!!! Good Riddance!!!!Up with the IJ!!! Down with Luther and his righteousness by faith!!!! We choose legalistic blindness!!! Let the blood of Ford and his followers be on us and our children!!!!

When the church sacrificed Ford on the altar of tradition and virtually spitted in the face of progressive, open, honest Bible study, they laid down the gauntlet and essentially set the tone for the offical position of the leadership right up until the present: Question this doctrine and face the consequences. Now, of course, many in the church are seeing the utter futility and theological inmpossibility of this doctrine. There are legions of lay members who have either privately or publicly denounced and abandoned 1844 and the IJ. They sit back and marvel at the theological gymnastics that go into trying to keep this belief afloat.

However, denominational employees such as pastors, theologians, teachers and scholars are being placed in an impossible situation when they find they cannot reconcile this doctrine in thier respective fields of study. The historian is told to line up his/her research and conclusions with the SOP or hit the road. The geologist is told to line up his/her research and conclusions with the SOP or hit the road. The scientist is told to line up his/her research and conclusions with the SOP or hit the road. The theologian is told to line up his/her research and conclusions with the SOP or hit the road. The doctor is told to line up his/her research and conclusions with the SOP or hit the road. The dietician is told to line up his/her research and conclusions with the SOP or hit the road. The teacher is told to line up his/her research with the SOP or hit the road. And on and on it goes, all through the ranks until the brightest minds are stifled and cut off at the knees to protect the integrity of a woman who died years ago and a legacy of preposterous claims in all fields that ranged from, at best, mistaken, to, at worst, completely and utterly wrong! But of course Ellen is not wrong, cannot be wrong, will never be wrong on any point, and this must be protected at all costs.

This is not honest study. This is a complete joke and a travesty of the highest order! The Adventist church has zero credibility and how dare they even pretend to be a progressive denomination that encourages its membership to study for themselves and see if these things be so.

Make no mistake: There are many high ranking Adventist thought leaders that are well aware of the problems facing the church in regards to Ellen white. Ford worked alongside many of them. Edward Heppenstall apparently had major misgivings but did not come clean.

So what has happened as a result? The church has become a joke in the eyes of the Christian world. Scholars wait slently until retirement/sustentation benefits and then they go public with thier real convictions on the sanctuary/IJ/1844. What is this insanity?!!

And I thought only Rome had a corner on creating this sort of atmosphere of fear and dread in a supposedly Christian denomination. Is any doctrine worth going to such lengths to be preserved? Does anyone honestly think that any president would ever have the guts and backbone to do the ethical, right thing? They would have to own up to thier shameful actions. Ford would have to be re-instated into the ministry, given back his credentials and welcomed into church fellowship with a full apology and financial compensation for the grief they have caused him. They would have to admit he was right in his study and scrap the belief without delay. Not one ultra-conservative SDA will ever let that happen. They would rather die than let that happen. The Ellen White straight-jacket is firmly in place and tradition rules the day. Uriah Smith (who was a full-blown legalist) is considered the ultimate authourity on the IJ and that settles that. Don't rock our little world with integrity and truth please, we will not tolerate that one bit.

And I have seen no evidence that anything has changed under the administration of Jan Paulsen or will change in the near future.

 

[StormyOne]

Do you think that your Jerry Springer neutrality on life and death issues will be rewarded by God or have you already settled on death?

That would be between me and God, not you and I, as such don't worry yourself about it.....

 

[NightEternal]

If people want a real eye-opener, they need to read the Spectrum minutes of Glacierview:

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/spectrum/archive06-10/10-4utt.pdf

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/spectrum/archive11-15/11-2cottrell.pdf

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/spectrum/archive11-15/11-2documents1.pdf

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/spectrum/archive11-15/11-2dismissal.pdf

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/spectrum/archive11-15/11-2zytkoskee.pdf

I have never read such a disturbing display of backroom politics and underhanded behavior in all my life.

First of all, what in the world was up with Neal Wilson?! He has the audacity to reassure Ford that what was about to take place was not an inquisition, that Ford was not on trial, blah blah, blah...

I mean, butter would have melted in this man's mouth at the beginning. He even had me believing that Ford might possibly have an ally through this whole nightmare.

And then, out of the blue, in the middle of one of Ford's responses, Wilson suddenly goes for Ford's throat! He's all; "Des, you never listen to the brethren, you are stubborn, you won't recieve correction, yadda, yadda, yadda.."

What the....??!

Where did that outburst come from?! It just does not make sense. Something happened, or someone got to Wilson behind the scenes, because his whole demeanor just changed at the drop of a dime.

Turns out the whole affair was exactly what Wilson said it was not: A trial where Ford was going to lose his credentials, either voluntarily or involuntarily!

Unreal. Wilson assured Ford he could speak freely and openly, led Ford to think that no harm would come to him...

And then the very thing Ford is encouraged to do is used as a weapon to bring about his demise!!!

If it was anymore sickening, I don't think I could handle it!

And don't get me started on Robert Pierson's letter to the committee! What a gutless hack!! How dare he malign Ford the way he did? Try it face to face!

At least Jack Provonsha brought a little sanity to the precedings with his speech on standing beside one's integrity. It was like a verbal oasis in a desert of legalism!

And then we have the spineless wonder himself, Keith Parmenter!

Way to sell out your friend you useless Judas. I wonder what you thought when you buried that knife right to the hilt in Ford's back? I hope it was worth it whoring out your integrity to a bunch of ultra-conservative, theological assassins. You had the opportunity to stand your ground and tell those right wing thugs where to go and you folded under thier pressure. It was painfully obvious to anyone with two eyes and two ears that these fundamentalist hyenas were gunning for Ford for a long time and you danced on thier strings like the pathetic marionette you are. You make me want to puke.

Mark it well: Glacierview was a complete joke.

Parmenter went there as nothing more than a whipped puppy with an agenda that had to be enforced to save his presidency, brought to his knees by a legalistic, Historic Adventist lynch mob. As a result, the one man who had the potential to bring the cross and the Reformation gospel into Adventism was unjustly and unceremoniously treated as a heretic.

It is to make one weep...

 

[mva1985]

Christ Object Lessons page 310

"It is while men are still dwelling upon the earth that the work of investigative judgment takes place in the courts of heaven. The lives of all His professed followers pass in review before God. All are examined according to the record of the books of heaven, and according to his deeds the destiny of each is forever fixed."

 

[mva1985]

Evangelism page 222

"The Center of Christ's Atoning Work.--The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise, it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. {Ev 221.3}
All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men. It concerns every soul living upon the earth. It opens to view the plan of redemption, bringing us down to the very close of time, and revealing the triumphant issue of the contest between righteousness and sin. It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects, and be able to give an answer to every one that asketh them a reason of the hope that is in them.--The Great Controversy, pp. 488, 489. (1888) "

 

[woobadooba]

For those that might want to read an alternative to what Desmond Ford Taught go here: http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/desmondfordtheology.htm

 

[mva1985]

The Faith I Live By page 210

"In the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment, the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. . . . The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. . . . "