Response to John MacArthur

[justinstout]

The experience that I have had directly with Charasmatic churches comes from the fact that I used to be a charasmatic. I also used to travel around alot so I got to see a fair share of charasmatic churches...at least 15 different ones. So yes I do think that I can base this on my "experience" with Charasmatic churches.

Also, a statement of faith says next to nothing about a church besides central beliefs. It says nothing about the service and how it goes or anything of the like. It simply gives a newcomer some presuppositions about beliefs before entering into a church. There are alot of conservative churches that state almost the same thing as you have printed.

I used to be a charasmatic and was all about the emotional experience and warm fuzzies...and then I started to speak in tongues and it was that "experience" which caused to leave the charasmatic Church (PM me if u want details because it is a quite disturbing story).

Well, I used to be a Methodist.. and then I was a Baptist for 15 years. I guess I should assume that all Methodists and Baptists are the exact way that I EXPERIENCED them in the churches that I attended. Oh well..

It all seems to come back to "experience" for other people also.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Well, I used to be a Methodist.. and then I was a Baptist for 15 years. I guess I should assume that all Methodists and Baptists are the exact way that I EXPERIENCED them in the churches that I attended. Oh well..

It all seems to come back to "experience" for other people also.

I'm not saying that it is "exact" but you will have to admit that from 15 years of experience that you know about the general (at least) practices are of baptist churches right?

 

[Jig]

I really enjoy listening or reading MacArthur. He is very good and he is mostly always right on. The guy knows his stuff.

 

[justinstout]

I'm not saying that it is "exact" but you will have to admit that from 15 years of experience that you know about the general (at least) practices are of baptist churches right?

Not exactly, because every Baptist church has its' differences. I know some Baptist churches that don't allow black people to attend. And then I know some Baptists churches that have black and white people who attend. That's a major difference, especially when you know the reasons behind their views.

I know Baptist churches where the pastor and many members operate in the gifts of the Spirit regularly. I know some Baptist churches that would throw people out on their heads if they spoke in tongues in their church.

I know some Methodist churches that advocate homosexual lifestyles and think that God could be a woman. I also know Methodist churches that don't believe that at all. Huge difference there.

So... no, I don't believe that you know the truth about godly, Bible-believing, charismatic Christian churches. I am one of them and I can promise you that I do not put my experiences ahead of God's Word.

 

[Llauralin]

Well, I used to be a Methodist.. and then I was a Baptist for 15 years. I guess I should assume that all Methodists and Baptists are the exact way that I EXPERIENCED them in the churches that I attended. Oh well..

It all seems to come back to "experience" for other people also.

When it comes to a church focusing much of it's time on experience, yes. They have little history, no written liturgy, no catechism, a very brief statement of doctrins... what is one supposed to go to find out what they're like?

 

[justinstout]

When it comes to a church focusing much of it's time on experience, yes. They have little history, no written liturgy, no catechism, a very brief statement of doctrins... what is one supposed to go to find out what they're like?

Why does one need to find out everything about a church's doctrine.. just so that they can gossip about them like all of you do about charismatics? Is that why? Obviously so

As I said, if everything I believe about Baptists and Methodists came from my EXPERIENCE at those churches, I'd call them all drunks who have no spiritual backbones. If everything I believed came from the Methodist Conventions, I'd have to assume that God is a woman and that homosexuality is a great lifestyle. My aunt is married to a Methodist pastor and they attend the huge conventions every year. Should I assume that ALL Methodist churches are like that?

 

[Entertaining_Angels]

I was raised with both charismatic and wof type teachings. In fact, sounds like many of the folks arguing the original post have experience with these teachings. I attend a charismatic church now (Calvary Chapel) that is more in line with actual Biblical teachings. Justin, I've been to your type of church and consider myself recovered.

God bless.

 

[justinstout]

I was raised with both charismatic and wof type teachings. In fact, sounds like many of the folks arguing the original post have experience with these teachings. I attend a charismatic church now (Calvary Chapel) that is more in line with actual Biblical teachings. Justin, I've been to your type of church and consider myself recovered.

God bless.

That's cool, OreGal.

Where is your church located?

Is it Calvary Chapel in Ft. Worth?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Some of John MacArthur's writings regarding Word of Faith's (WoF) doctrines have been very helpful for people like me, especially those who are disabled. Often WoF teaches that if a Christian is not healed, God is not the problem, its the reciever (me) is why I am not healed. I recommend you read some of his books. I may not agree with all of Mr MacArthur's doctrines however, most of his writings and works are wonderful. I have many of his books.

 

[BarbB]

Some of John MacArthur's writings regarding Word of Faith's (WoF) doctrines have been very helpful for people like me, especially those who are disabled. Often WoF teaches that if a Christian is not healed, God is not the problem, its the reciever (me) is why I am not healed. I recommend you read some of his books. I may not agree with all of Mr MacArthur's doctrines however, most of his writings and works are wonderful. I have many of his books.

I'm with you, Jim (again - LOL). While I disagree with MacArthur's stance on things charismatic, his teaching on the Bible and on wishy-washy Christianity are favorites on my bookshelves. I would loan them out to others, but I'm too afraid that they won't come back!

 

[JimfromOhio]

I'm with you, Jim (again - LOL). I would loan them out to others, but I'm too afraid that they won't come back!

I have loaned out some books and never got them back. LOL

 

[Veritas]

How about everyone actually reading the whole post.

Don't want to....too long. Maybe try the "Reader's Digest" version and you'll get more and better responses.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Why does one need to find out everything about a church's doctrine.. just so that they can gossip about them like all of you do about charismatics? Is that why? Obviously so

As I said, if everything I believe about Baptists and Methodists came from my EXPERIENCE at those churches, I'd call them all drunks who have no spiritual backbones. If everything I believed came from the Methodist Conventions, I'd have to assume that God is a woman and that homosexuality is a great lifestyle. My aunt is married to a Methodist pastor and they attend the huge conventions every year. Should I assume that ALL Methodist churches are like that?

Hey brother, can you say "straw man"?

 

[lan]

I lean with McAuthor, all must be weighed against scripture. Otherwise it will be a free for-all out there. Pretty much is now.


If the enemy can disguise himself as a "angel of light", then we must submitt to caution.

The "Toronto " issue is a good example.

I was involved in a church that sent people to Toronto, to bring back the Blessing.

The Pastor resigned , and the church now submitts to a "New-Move" of the Holy Spirit.

Although there is no "new-move" mentioned in scripture.

What are they submitting to?
What is that spirit is doing to them, while they submitt?

Scary.

 

[lan]

I have two problems with charasmatics:

1) Their interpretation of scripture - In every single charasmatic church that I have visited they have completely ignored the "Golden Rule of Interpretation" which states that "when a passage makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore one should take every word literally and at its normal meaning unless context clues indicate otherwise." Whenever I hear a charasmatic preacher preach he/she ignores the rule and spiritualizes abso.lutely everything that he/she comes across. I do not believe that that is the correct way to interpret scripture. Why would you spiritualize it when its literal meaning makes perfect sense? Doesn't make sense to me.

2) Experience over Doctrine and Theology - Charasmatics claim that they are spirit-filled" and therefore promote the spiritual gifts of helps, tongues, healing, prophecy, and the gifts that I believe have ceased to exist at the completing of the canon of Scripture. These gifts are all "experience-based". About a year ago I saw a woman at the front of the church dancing dramatically to a song and then she started to spin and did not stop. She was going so fast it could not be her own physical power doing that. At that same church there was a member later on giving a sad announcement that his son had just passed away and a different woman broke out in laughter. "Holy Laughter" she called it...ALL based on experience. And then there's the sermon which is mostly good and all and actually does have sound and solid Biblical doctrine built in. The sermon, however, seems to be in the minority at these churches when compared to the music and emotional experience of it all. Music = 70% of the service and Sermon = 30% (roughly). I do not agree with that. I believe that the only way one can truly learn about God and his ways and his images is through the studying of His Divine Scripture that he gave to us not to put aside and put in the minority but to study imensely and intensely. Charasmatics do in fact, from the charasmatic churches that I have seen, portray to me the ultimate in experience over sound doctrine and theology.

I do not agree with your arguments about the general charasmatic movement and John MacArthur because I have read commentaries by charasmatic ministers such as Hagee and the like that clearly state that experience is the most important thing and that experience can sho us everything. Wrong! If that were true then what is the Bible here for?

Although I do not consider myself "Charismatic", I thought exactly as you did. Till one day.......

I spoke in tounges, not looking, seeking, or anyway "wanting" this gift. Came in very useful for what was about to happen in the next 5 mins.

I witnessed a very Un-expected healing, by another person, when a guy layed hands on a injury.

We are still the same people, with the same sins, as were the first Adam and Eve.
As in the days of Noah.

The gifts are still there. I know, I was a skeptic.

These are Biblical gifts, from Holy Spirit.

"Holy-laughter" there is no evidence in scripture. Something amiss there.

 

[AnthonyE1778]

Although I do not consider myself "Charismatic", I thought exactly as you did. Till one day.......

I spoke in tounges, not looking, seeking, or anyway "wanting" this gift. Came in very useful for what was about to happen in the next 5 mins.

I witnessed a very Un-expected healing, by another person, when a guy layed hands on a injury.

We are still the same people, with the same sins, as were the first Adam and Eve.
As in the days of Noah.

The gifts are still there. I know, I was a skeptic.

These are Biblical gifts, from Holy Spirit.

"Holy-laughter" there is no evidence in scripture. Something amiss there.

How does one know that they are from the Holy Spirit?