Response from nirotu

[nirotu]

Dear Mahasudarshanchakra:

A friendly advice. Shorten your name. I am afraid, I might misspell and be disrespectful.

"I clearly remember what you said. I did not post on that thread though. You were saying Hindu saints were selfish people who looked after their pleasures and salvation while Jesus alone cared for mankind. And were asking others to follow Jesus because these HIndu saints who were even unable to reach the truth themselves cannot show that you. You made other sarcastic remarks, which I dont remember.


And that was not your first such post there, you have been warned many times I guess. You have done it numerous times and I have read all your discussions though I was not a member of hindunet during ur discussions - with satay, grames, padma, pagan, srinivas, ganesh, winsome, anadi and others, and never seen you providing a good explanation for your claims. And finally always complete with your usual circular logic- Bible is true because it says so, and hence you cannot even appreciate Hindu posts due to fear of heresy. That is when you start promoting desperately and get deleted or warned. These are your own words. I think many of these posts are still surviving and you can go back and refer them."

my response:
First of all, let me clear some misunderstandings. I have to do this to set the record straight. If you look at all of my posts at Hindunet.com you will see they never were derogatory or demeaning. In fact, I quoted almost on all occasions from Gita verses. If you were to compare my views with some of the other members (on Christian thread), you would consider me a Saint. It was unfortunate that a bunch of “like minded” people could not understand the subtle truth I was presenting but were always fearful of what I might end up saying against them.


It was not so much that I was personally offended being ousted but my attempts to clarify and reach genuine seekers were sabotaged.



At the same time I will not take away the respect that is due. Of all people I had a chance to chat with, Mr.Grames and Proudvedic presented more coherent and intelligent arguments. I did not exchange with Anadi but I respect his scholarship of the subject matter. For the rest, all I can say is that they were emotionally charged and visceral at all times. While, emotions are good but it can change at the drop of a hat. Dogmatic Hindus are a prime example of that. Their dogmatic and militant views can only be ascribed to their hidden agenda to discredit Christians at any cost.



In fact, Ramana Maharshi has warned us to be careful of such people. They are thieves dressed in policeman cloths trying to catch a thief. Will they ever do that?





I will also tell you why I was ousted! Notice, only a last few postings were conveniently deleted. The selective deletion of last few suggests strongly the motive that is very clear to me. You might not know this: Towards a last few posts (which unfortunately got deleted), an agnostic person walked into my thread. Her response to me showed her agreement with me to the point she was genuinely willing to listen (which is lacking among Hindus). This was perceived as threat by moderators and participants. It is ironic that they also ousted that person who was willing listen,who was becoming spiritually motivated. Isn’t that the point of such forum discussions? This is How Hindus act when they are threatened. They simply disown and act as if nothing happened. This shows utter fear among all Hindus with the mere mention of the word Christ or Christianity. Somehow you seem to always equate Christian with proselytization and the word Christ triggers that anger in you.



Let me assure you of one thing! This is merely an exchange of ideas. When you come with such a hostile attitude you will deny yourself of rich wisdom in Christ Jesus message. In the end, it’s not me but only Holy Spirit can guide your heart and mind.



Just in case you missed my exchange with that person, here it is. I post this again to prove two points.



First, to show you that there were no disparaging remarks to any sages or gurus. Second, knowing your questions in future will not be any different from your friends from Hindunet, these answers will only benefit you in advance.



I am highlighting part of exchange of relevance here.

“Pretty-Pam: But there are historical proofs to Buddha and later Hindu teachers.

Nirotu: No body denies in the teachings of Buddha or Shankara or Ramanuja. They were great scholars and teachers at best. There is a difference being a teacher and being actively involved in one’s spiritual progress. Shankara , Ramanuja etc had teaching as their spiritual vocation. The truth is that they were all seekers. That remains far distant from being the truth itself. It is like a difference between electrical light bulb and the Sun coming out. Electricity is man made is touched by human mind, whereas Sun has the light of its own. Don’t confuse teachers and saints of spirituality with the direct Son of God.

Pretty-pam: As I understand, Hinduism is not based on the prophet theory or a specific founder of the religion. The truth has been carried forward from eternity. These religions were well established even at the time of Jesus. So no authenticity needs to be established as far as I am concerned. If Jesus is historical what else proves that he is the sole messenger or Son of God?


nirotu: Argument is not whether religion or saints existed before Jesus. There is historical proof that Jesus alone came as Son of God. Why so? I can only infer that from the Bible as source. I consider the Bible that revealed Christ to me has also revealed His origin.

Pretty-pam: As I understand, after a man dies he remains in the grave until the judgment day. Heaven or Hell for anybody is decided based only after the judgment day, which is still several years away. So no Christian has ever reached heaven so far and nobody in hell too.

So all Christian concept of salvation is mere speculation and no one has ever gone to these places.

Nirotu: I would like to caution all of us not to take spiritual concepts literally if not warranted. You are taking everything literally and on a physical plane. There is a saying that goes something like this: “If literal sense makes common sense then seek no other sense” Given that, all three terms (Judgment day, heaven and hell) have metaphorical meaning in the human realm. They are all metaphors for transformation. I am not in a position to discuss the events going to take place in the future but certainly can apply these metaphors to the present human realm.

Pretty –pam: The same contradiction as stated above. Nobody has yet been saved until the judgment day. Who knows, there is never a judgment day.

Nirotu: Don’t get bogged down with future. Forget what happens after death. Instead of speculating what the judgment day going to be after death, don’t you think it is much more productive to heed the call of Christ who has shown us to deal with both heaven and hell that resides in us? The lifetime you spend on this planet is an opportunity for refining and transforming from our hell of ignorance into heaven of awareness and a deeper knowing of our true nature and connection with the Father.

That is the state Hindus have called Sat, Chit and Ananda.

My friend, do not waste time in idle speculations.

Pretty-pam: As I understand things, all prophets have enormous love for every living being. I hope you know most Hindus dont even harm or eat animals. If ordinary ppl are like these, How about Hindu saints?

No denying in that. Consider me also in that group. This is certainly a good way to lead a life of high moral standards but it does not make you incarnation of divinity itself. It is of completely different order we are talking about. The feeling in natural Sun cannot be simulated in the laboratory.

Pretty-pam: This looks like a blind belief. Has anyone saved by Jesus ever returned to tell the tale? It is not what the method someone preaches is important, but you should look into the efficicacy. If some charlatan claims to be a monk, performs a few tricks, and tells me that he will grant me salvation and all I need to do is to pay him a thousand bucks. It looks easy, no? But would that work?

Again, you are taking concepts literally. The term “saving” is not on a physical plane at all. It is a saving of man from sure sinking into quicksand of matter, which also is called Maya. That is the promise of Jesus saving and salvation. Sometimes I do have trouble getting point across through metaphors and allegories and I venture to guess Jesus Christ must have felt the same way.


I am not concerned about how many people Jesus saved and do not consider it great at all. I am not impressed with Christianity saving a few christians in the world and leaving the rest to face an eternal punishment. My main issue with Christianity and Jesus - what hope have they left for people who lack faith in them? What has Jesus done for an agnostic like me who does not harm anybody in the world. What has God done to ensure I will be safe irrespective of my actions. What responsibility has God assumed over me since he chose to create me ( I did not ask myself to be created and be thrown into hell by default).

It is for people with feelings like this Jesus has offered greatest hope. For people feeling abandoned by God, Jesus is giving hope by repeatedly reminding us “you and I are one, difference is you know not.” Misbehavior of a child is no reason for his father to abandon him. Likewise, your regrettable choices are no reason for your heavenly Father to abandon you either.

In your case, the issue is not what God has done for you but what have you done with knowledge you have to get out of your ignorance. If you are traveling on a freeway where all signs are posted, why do you knowingly not follow them and then blame the system that you are lost. Jesus messages are those signs.

“28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. “ (Mathew 11:28, KJV is the perennial cry of His heart waiting patiently for the prodigal son to terurn.


Pretty-pam: Hmm, so you are willing to put your money on a murderer? I am surprised you did not even deny these charges. This is the same attitude muslims display. They really herald their prophet for massacaring the masses.

Sorry, I dont buy this story. A messenger of God need not start as a murderer and then transform into a good person.



Nirotu: Wow! Did you know Maharishi Valmiki ? He was a notorious gangster killing and looting people for the most part of his life. Do you see how God used him and revealed Ramayana through him?

You seem to base your opinion on a narrow and preconceived notion when it comes to the Bible. The take home point is that God can use any one to glorify Himself. You don’t have to be a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu to carryout his plan. He is sovereign in His dealings.

Pretty-pam: We have about 20000 odd denominations in christianity each interpreting the bible in their way all the ranging from universal salvation to the very narrow minded views of some cathlocs, protestants, calvynists etc. And you call me as having poor understanding? Do the so called christians understand the bible unambiguiosly? My mom is a catholic who holds the view all non-catholics are destined for hell. Is that proper understanding of christianity?

Nirotu: I do not adhere to any denomination or tradition. I go to a Bible believing, full Gospel, non-denominational church. It comes closest to Pentecostal. I use King James Version to read and occasionally use New International Version for translation.

For me, to test any sayings against the truth in scripture is more important than following traditions of the Church or blindly following evangelical messages. By en large I find, most Christian’s loyalty to religion is not based on sincere desire to seek the truth but on an emotional attachment to cultures and traditions.

I do not wish to judge anyone or any denomination because I have enough of my own issues to deal with.

Pretty-pam: Bible is the most ambiguos piece of literature ever and no God can ever expect anyone to understand what God is, what his purpose is or what the way to salvation is - the 20000 denominations hold different positions and some of them oppose each other like rivals. There are many newage schools like JW, Mormons etc who have very diff interpretations. So my conclusion is bible is a poorly written book hardly looking like a divinely inspired work.


On a personal level, I can only pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you and your mother with a discerning mind to follow that which pleases Him.






I would like you to point out any disparaging remarks!



Better yet, see the exchange following to this which really upset Satay that she is willing to listen. Here it is the exchange that did not make directors cut!





Blessings,

 

[nirotu]

Dear Chakra:
Here is the part II that did not make director's cut.

Pretty-pam: You are one of the nicer and more enlightened Christians. Most I know of are real bad and egoistic. You know why I dumped Christianity - I simply did not like this faith's shoving of faith into others by force or deceit. Which God has permitted you to do that?

Nirotu: Thank you! Now we can have a friendly chat about such meaningful topics.



Pretty-Pam: I agree that you show some respect for Hindu saints and did not refer them as Satanists like many Christians like my mom. But even then you just seem to think that these people were great, but they were selfish and did not possess enough merit for others to follow? If you think these saints are great people, what problem do you have with these Hindus here? Why do they need Jesus at all, if they have received great teachings of great teachers?

Buddha and Krishna existed before Jesus and at best Jesus borrowed their teachings. Not the other way around.



Nirotu: All sages and Sadhus or Munis etc were tremendously engrossed in their path of seeking the divine and becoming enlightened. They all attained certain level of “Gyana” and passed on to disciples. Along the way they became great teachers giving us insight into the nature of God. However, they were human beings seeking God rather than a direct descent of the Son of God. Again, just because I am making these comparisons does not negate their holiness and their achievements.

The human incarnation is complex. Different Sages and Saints have addressed at different levels. Buddha has addressed the path of the mind; Ramana has addressed the ego etc. These are all like light bulbs of various voltages. At different times you use different voltages to illuminate the path. There is something to be said about the light of the Sun (a metaphor for truth in Jesus’ message) that illumines everything.

Christianity has nothing to do with the philosophy of Hinduism when it comes to the matter of salvation. You see, if Christ ever borrowed any theology from Hinduism or Buddhism, the nature and scope of His message would have been entirely different. If one looks way back at Jesus times, there was no dogma of any kind in its propagation. However, Churches have conveniently packaged it for consumers. Therefore, I urge everyone to look at the message without any dogma attached.

When Jesus says, “ Love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as thyself”. He did not mean that to say, love only people of like faith, nor did he say only Christian love to be emulated. One must not take His teaching to be narrow and designed for a select group of people. His message is for all and invitation is to all. On a deeper level He showed us what the love is by action. Every action of Jesus on the earth, right down to His crucifixion, demonstrates His love and compassion for the lost souls.

Similarly, I do take the message of Lord Krishna with equal reverence. When you consider, for example Chap 16, as simply a dialogue between Arjuna and Lord Krishna you tend to lose all its purported meaning. Consider it a dialogue between Lord Krishna and you or me. It is Krishna talking to you and me and not just Arjuna, then it becomes effective in its delivery. On a deeper level you will see the humility in Arjuna by surrendering all his ego before Krishna. Arjuna was a great warrior, intelligent and noble and had everything going for him. But his desire was to seek further understanding and , more importantly, he was a willing listener.


Pretty-Pam: Are you saying that Buddha ever had enlightenment or not?

Yes, Buddha was self-realized and enlightened but for himself. His profound conclusion was to strive to detach ourselves from the desires and actions of our ego in order to attain enlightenment. On Buddha’s deathbed his followers asked who they should follow next and he replied “ Be ye a lamp unto yourselves; workout your own salvation with diligence.” While he was certain of his own future, he was not so sure of his disciples because he did not believe in a personal God to be saved.

Nirotu: If yes, then what is the need of Christ? If no, then why are using the word saint here? Please be consistent.

Do you know why Buddha started his own religion while being born a Hindu? Was there a need for that? Why did he become an atheist? When there were other paths available for “Nirvana” or “Moksha” why did he choose to separate himself? It was out of rejection from Hinduism that the Buddhism took root. He could not believe in a personal or impersonal God!

Why bring Jesus? As Swamy Yogananda so aptly puts it. “ The profound meaning of Jesus birth is the forgiveness of God.”



Word saint is to show the “self-realization” achieved by these sages.


Pretty-Pam: Christ message is simple - follow me or perish. Am I right or wrong?



Nirotu: With all due respect, you are wrong! Bible does not say if you did not believe in Jesus you go to hell, which is very dogmatic concept of condemnation. The meaning of perish here is not disappear. It means you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God. Even the term “follow me” is not to be taken as literal physical act. What He is suggesting in that is to surrender and hold the hand of grace, which alone can pull us out of ignorance of matter.





Blessings,

Taken from : Hindunet.com/Hindu and Christian relations/Who is Jesus?

These, I have posted for your own education so that we can respect each other’s views without being hostile. The confrontation must not be between us but between views shaped by Hindu philosophy and that shaped by Christ teachings.

Let us not just talk the talk: let us begin to walk the talk.

Blessings,

 

[indianx]

Great, you talk to a few Hindus and generalize a billion people by statements such as these:

"This is How Hindus act when they are threatened."
"Her response to me showed her agreement with me to the point she was genuinely willing to listen (which is lacking among Hindus)"

Besides being offensive and ignorant, ad hominem attacks like that show me your motivations. If you want to bash a particular group of people, come out openly and do so, don't hide.

 

[nirotu]

What about Lord Krishna, was he also a light bulb? Or was he the sun? Was he also a sage who acheived a certain level of Jnana?

Moroever it is your purely personal beleif that the Sun is the Christ. Dont expect Hindus to beleive that part of the story.

First of all, you have to understand what myth is and what is real. Krishna and Rama are purely mythological stories written by sages under the divine inspiration of God. The writings are prescriptions for leading a morally upright life.



For example, Rama is portrayed as Atman, Sita as wisdom or higher knowledge and Ravana as evil or Maya. When Sita was caught in “Maya” because of the ego in her, the atman (Rama) had to liberate her from the ego. It is called grace.



Look at “kurukshetra” where the central figure is the Krishna a metaphor for the divine. The author wants you to treat the exchange between Arjuna and Krishna as being between you and the divine one.



You need to understand the difference between reality (what really occurred) versus divine metaphors in an epic. It would be wise to learn the message rather than glorify the mythical characters and identify with them as real.



When you come with certain dogmatic principles you will always be caught in the web of your own ignorance. In that, only the hand of grace can save you from the veil of ignorance.



Blessings,

 

[nirotu]

Both. We dont beleive in the abiogeneis, which is unnecessary if we accept the concept of a soul. We dont accept life as a chemical reaction.

Otherwise, we dont have any problems with the Evolution Theory, but not necessarily the same kind of evolution theory advocated by modern science. If you look at the avatars of Vishnu,

Matsya - Fish - aquatic species
Kurma - Tortoise - amphibian
Varaha- wild Boar - primitive land animal
Narasimha - half lion half man - a stage prior to man.
Vamana - a short human species
Parashurama - A normal human species.
Rama - full man full God
Krishna - full God

These are clear evidences of Hinduism support theory of evolution from aquatic species to full God.

A Soul's goal is to evolve spiritually from an aquatic being to the level of Lord Krishna.

Interesting indeed! I am not quite sure when you say “both”, do you mean to say both creation and evolution? To me they are contradictory to each other with your definition of evolution theory. You cannot believe in “Bing bang” and “steady state theory” simultaneously.



If a soul that has essentially evolved from a fish to man, we must have begun somewhere in the course of time possibly from “matsya” to “human”. Since all sanatanis believe in “cause and effect relationship”, you must also have to believe in “first cause” to result in the effects. Who set it motion? Who was responsible for that first cause?



If, on the other hand, our soul is eternal and yet went through the process of evolution from fish to man, who did God write the scripture in the beginning for? Because, you believe “Sanatan Dharma” as “Eternal Religion”, right from the beginning human mind must have been there to comprehend it. He could not have written for the fish!!!!



Blessings,

 

[nirotu]

It is one of my faults to not respect people who are dishonest with themselves and others and go to the extent of trying to bash the other side by pathetically identifying themselves with the other side and then continuing the bashing.

Being able to see the truth in Sages and in their interpretations does not deter from your fundamental faith in your own path. Fundamental particles are atoms but different aggregates have come into existence and can be realized. It does not take away from atom being the fundamental particle. These tools provided in various scriptures can be helpful in discussion like this and also can be helpful in our own spiritual growth.

In fact, by reading Gita and other scriptures I have only strengthened my faith in Christ. So do not be under the impression that I am trying somehow to quote Gita and be in your good books.

The rose is my personal favorite but that does not stop me from enjoying the fragrance of other flowers in the garden.



Part of my disappointment at the ousting was because it came at a time when I was starting to believe that Hindu were not as rigid as they had made out to be. But they proved me wrong. That is always a cause of philosophical sadness.


Blessings,

 

[indianx]

Yes, I too feel sad that you have not learned that generalizing people on the actions of a few is wrong.

I too was starting to believe that Christians were not as violent as they were made out to be, but then I read about some Christians murdering others in the newspaper, so they have proven me wrong and it is causing me philosophical sadness.

I was starting to believe that Christians were not as dirty as they were made out to be, but then I saw some Christians urinating on the road, so they have proven me wrong and it is causing me philosophical sadness.

This is exactly what your argument is. Now, I admit I put the second in for humour, but it servers its purpose to show the absurdity of the argument you're using. Just to make clear, I don't think and never did think that Christians were dirty, I just used it as an example of the rhetoric he was using.

 

[nirotu]

I find it ironic that you think this is your home turf when on the hindu site you made such claims as we are not christians or muslims or hindus but we should make a relationship with god etc. How do you feel that this your home turf? Strange...

My implication that this is my turf was only tongue-n-cheek suggesting that mere metaphor of the word Christianity.

It was evident at the other site that I was having to deal with lot of fear and bias (Namarupa) and at the words like Christ and Christianity. My friend, in that sense you are right that I still do maintain that our true “home turf “ is our connection to our father and everything else is mere detail.

I find your statements ironic too. After months of debating on the hindunet and you constantly insulting the dharma and what it stands for now you complain that you were not tolerated over there. What are you talking about? Who ousted you from that site?

I was not so much personally offended as much as the fact that my personal attempts to clarify was misunderstood as attacks. You and your like-minded friends sabotaged a genuine spiritual exchange with the last person on the other site.

It is the fear that all of you have in you that somehow triggers anger in you at the mention of the word Christ or Christianity. People like you are the prime reason that come with preconceived dogmas and try to analyse with non-sensical conclusions. You will never understand Christ and his message unless you are Christ conscious.

Don't be so amused by my posts. Being a hindu is very tough these days with missionary nonsense all over the place. Christians shoving their nonsense down everyone's throat. This place is no different. Most hindu posts get deleted or hindus get warned and banned here... but of course, those the rules of this site.

If you objectively and without any Hindu dogma or bias read my posts carefully, you will see that I have never overtly attacked Hindu Dharma. My attempt to clarify the nature of Christ and His divine message brought forth having to make certain comparisons with Hindu Saints and Sages. But this was all done in context and in an attempt to clarify my views.

Remember, in this type of discussions it is the “intent” that is more important than the “content”.

Anti-christian, come now, friend. I am not anti-christian. I am against paulinity you know that very well.

Ah...I also note with a bit of surprise that you are quick to judge me here on your "hometurf" while you cried foul when someone judged you at the hindunet. Double standards wouldn't you say? Or is it that you really feel at home here on this site already?

My friend, I would like to emphasize once again that these exchanges are not meant to be at a personal and judgmental level. Being judgmental and having discerning mind are totally different.

Hate and dharma don't go in hand in hand. Probably you are talking about the qualities of your god. Hate has no place in dharma.

But you seem to not display that attitude. It would be nice to see this type of talk in action.

That's the spirit! To be honest, you are the only christian I have fun talking with especially your latest posts on the hindunet about how you believe in brahman and that brahman is the father that you pray to through jesus. No, seriously, I am beginning to see that the "christian" in you is very different than the "christian" in most christians overe here on this site. I hope you observe and find the same here.

I also hope you stick with the same line of thinking that you had at hindunet and educate your christian brethern over here and get them to see the truth i.e. the father is the brahman.

I am glad you are finally seeing through names and veils (namarupa) and getting the essence that lies at the core of all of our exchanges. That is the connection between son and the father without labels. If you continue in this way, I too can see a healthy exchange and a friendship.

Blessings,

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Dear nirotu,

A friendly advice. Shorten your name. I am afraid, I might misspell and be disrespectful.

Disrespect to whom? I dont care for such intentional or unintentional name abuse -- Call me Sudarshan.

"I clearly remember what you said. I did not post on that thread though. You were saying Hindu saints were selfish people who looked after their pleasures and salvation while Jesus alone cared for mankind. And were asking others to follow Jesus because these HIndu saints who were even unable to reach the truth themselves cannot show that you. You made other sarcastic remarks, which I dont remember.


And that was not your first such post there, you have been warned many times I guess. You have done it numerous times and I have read all your discussions though I was not a member of hindunet during ur discussions - with satay, grames, padma, pagan, srinivas, ganesh, winsome, anadi and others, and never seen you providing a good explanation for your claims. And finally always complete with your usual circular logic- Bible is true because it says so, and hence you cannot even appreciate Hindu posts due to fear of heresy. That is when you start promoting desperately and get deleted or warned. These are your own words. I think many of these posts are still surviving and you can go back and refer them."

my response:
First of all, let me clear some misunderstandings. I have to do this to set the record straight. If you look at all of my posts at Hindunet.com you will see they never were derogatory or demeaning. In fact, I quoted almost on all occasions from Gita verses. If you were to compare my views with some of the other members (on Christian thread), you would consider me a Saint. It was unfortunate that a bunch of “like minded” people could not understand the subtle truth I was presenting but were always fearful of what I might end up saying against them.


It was not so much that I was personally offended being ousted but my attempts to clarify and reach genuine seekers were sabotaged.

Ok.

At the same time I will not take away the respect that is due. Of all people I had a chance to chat with, Mr.Grames and Proudvedic presented more coherent and intelligent arguments. I did not exchange with Anadi but I respect his scholarship of the subject matter. For the rest, all I can say is that they were emotionally charged and visceral at all times. While, emotions are good but it can change at the drop of a hat. Dogmatic Hindus are a prime example of that. Their dogmatic and militant views can only be ascribed to their hidden agenda to discredit Christians at any cost.

I dont agree with this. This is a very generalized statement. Some Hindus still feel bitter at the very poor treatment at the British, followed by the missionaries who slander their religion at all costs. The average masses in India are not even aware of all these things - they know their religion, their God and their welfare. They dont have knowledge or time to abuse Christianity. The internet represents perhaps 0.01% of these people and I am surprised at your generalization. I hope you know that most of the posters on the Hindunet live in US and represent their views only. How many Hindus in India have you met? My mom for example does not even know who Jesus might be.


I personally dont have any problems with christians and I get along well with many colleagues, clients and also have many christian friends. But that does not mean I tolerate people abusing or talking ill of my faith. Give respect and take respect. Historically Hindus are a very peaceful group, and never moved beyond India for "soul saving". They taught spiritual wisdom to people who asked for it. If muslims and christians did not interfere, they would still be a very peaceful group and dont complain now.

In fact, Ramana Maharshi has warned us to be careful of such people. They are thieves dressed in policeman cloths trying to catch a thief. Will they ever do that?

I would suggest you to read Ramana Maharishi fully before quoting from parts of his works.

=nirotu]

I will also tell you why I was ousted! Notice, only a last few postings were conveniently deleted. The selective deletion of last few suggests strongly the motive that is very clear to me. You might not know this: Towards a last few posts (which unfortunately got deleted), an agnostic person walked into my thread. Her response to me showed her agreement with me to the point she was genuinely willing to listen (which is lacking among Hindus). This was perceived as threat by moderators and participants. It is ironic that they also ousted that person who was willing listen,who was becoming spiritually motivated. Isn’t that the point of such forum discussions? This is How Hindus act when they are threatened. They simply disown and act as if nothing happened. This shows utter fear among all Hindus with the mere mention of the word Christ or Christianity. Somehow you seem to always equate Christian with proselytization and the word Christ triggers that anger in you.

I did not read the last few posts because I was away for a while, but I noticed the thread was moved to another forum and a few posts deleted. I asked the mod about it, and said he suspected that many people of different faiths were claiming to be Hindus and then bashing Hinduism - he mentioned the user tantrikgoddess for example. If you have noticed on Hindunet there has been spurt of anti Hindu posts recently, from people claiming to be Hindus. So every anti Hindu post is currently viewed with suspicion. The mod Shaivite recently posted about it on the General Talk forum - read that post if you want.

Let me assure you of one thing! This is merely an exchange of ideas. When you come with such a hostile attitude you will deny yourself of rich wisdom in Christ Jesus message. In the end, it’s not me but only Holy Spirit can guide your heart and mind.

You do not realize that Hindus do not beleive in the Holy spirit. You convey promotion of christianity and not discussion - against the rules. Same as CF.

Just in case you missed my exchange with that person, here it is. I post this again to prove two points.



First, to show you that there were no disparaging remarks to any sages or gurus. Second, knowing your questions in future will not be any different from your friends from Hindunet, these answers will only benefit you in advance.



I am highlighting part of exchange of relevance here.

Thanks for this.

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Dear Chakra:
Here is the part II that did not make director's cut.

Pretty-pam: You are one of the nicer and more enlightened Christians. Most I know of are real bad and egoistic. You know why I dumped Christianity - I simply did not like this faith's shoving of faith into others by force or deceit. Which God has permitted you to do that?

Nirotu: Thank you! Now we can have a friendly chat about such meaningful topics.



Pretty-Pam: I agree that you show some respect for Hindu saints and did not refer them as Satanists like many Christians like my mom. But even then you just seem to think that these people were great, but they were selfish and did not possess enough merit for others to follow? If you think these saints are great people, what problem do you have with these Hindus here? Why do they need Jesus at all, if they have received great teachings of great teachers?

Buddha and Krishna existed before Jesus and at best Jesus borrowed their teachings. Not the other way around.



Nirotu: All sages and Sadhus or Munis etc were tremendously engrossed in their path of seeking the divine and becoming enlightened. They all attained certain level of “Gyana” and passed on to disciples. Along the way they became great teachers giving us insight into the nature of God. However, they were human beings seeking God rather than a direct descent of the Son of God. Again, just because I am making these comparisons does not negate their holiness and their achievements.

The human incarnation is complex. Different Sages and Saints have addressed at different levels. Buddha has addressed the path of the mind; Ramana has addressed the ego etc. These are all like light bulbs of various voltages. At different times you use different voltages to illuminate the path. There is something to be said about the light of the Sun (a metaphor for truth in Jesus’ message) that illumines everything.

Christianity has nothing to do with the philosophy of Hinduism when it comes to the matter of salvation. You see, if Christ ever borrowed any theology from Hinduism or Buddhism, the nature and scope of His message would have been entirely different. If one looks way back at Jesus times, there was no dogma of any kind in its propagation. However, Churches have conveniently packaged it for consumers. Therefore, I urge everyone to look at the message without any dogma attached.

When Jesus says, “ Love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as thyself”. He did not mean that to say, love only people of like faith, nor did he say only Christian love to be emulated. One must not take His teaching to be narrow and designed for a select group of people. His message is for all and invitation is to all. On a deeper level He showed us what the love is by action. Every action of Jesus on the earth, right down to His crucifixion, demonstrates His love and compassion for the lost souls.

Similarly, I do take the message of Lord Krishna with equal reverence. When you consider, for example Chap 16, as simply a dialogue between Arjuna and Lord Krishna you tend to lose all its purported meaning. Consider it a dialogue between Lord Krishna and you or me. It is Krishna talking to you and me and not just Arjuna, then it becomes effective in its delivery. On a deeper level you will see the humility in Arjuna by surrendering all his ego before Krishna. Arjuna was a great warrior, intelligent and noble and had everything going for him. But his desire was to seek further understanding and , more importantly, he was a willing listener.


Pretty-Pam: Are you saying that Buddha ever had enlightenment or not?

Yes, Buddha was self-realized and enlightened but for himself. His profound conclusion was to strive to detach ourselves from the desires and actions of our ego in order to attain enlightenment. On Buddha’s deathbed his followers asked who they should follow next and he replied “ Be ye a lamp unto yourselves; workout your own salvation with diligence.” While he was certain of his own future, he was not so sure of his disciples because he did not believe in a personal God to be saved.

Nirotu: If yes, then what is the need of Christ? If no, then why are using the word saint here? Please be consistent.

Do you know why Buddha started his own religion while being born a Hindu? Was there a need for that? Why did he become an atheist? When there were other paths available for “Nirvana” or “Moksha” why did he choose to separate himself? It was out of rejection from Hinduism that the Buddhism took root. He could not believe in a personal or impersonal God!

Why bring Jesus? As Swamy Yogananda so aptly puts it. “ The profound meaning of Jesus birth is the forgiveness of God.”



Word saint is to show the “self-realization” achieved by these sages.


Pretty-Pam: Christ message is simple - follow me or perish. Am I right or wrong?



Nirotu: With all due respect, you are wrong! Bible does not say if you did not believe in Jesus you go to hell, which is very dogmatic concept of condemnation. The meaning of perish here is not disappear. It means you are condemned to struggle like a mortal and die in your ignorance without God. Even the term “follow me” is not to be taken as literal physical act. What He is suggesting in that is to surrender and hold the hand of grace, which alone can pull us out of ignorance of matter.





Blessings,

Taken from : Hindunet.com/Hindu and Christian relations/Who is Jesus?

These, I have posted for your own education so that we can respect each other’s views without being hostile. The confrontation must not be between us but between views shaped by Hindu philosophy and that shaped by Christ teachings.

Let us not just talk the talk: let us begin to walk the talk.

Blessings,

Hmm.

I cannot strictly comment on why these were deleted but here is why...

Do you know the concept of salvation in my Hindu school kniown as Srivaishnavism? Just surrender to Lord Vishnu and our guru Acharya Ramanuja. Salvation is assured under all conditions. Your post displays lack of knowlede of Hinduism, and no wonder it was deleted. You are completely assuming Hinduism is advaita. It is not - there are many schools that advocate concepts similar and give even more emphasis on grace than Christianity.

In my school's opinion, man cannot seek salvation himself under any circumstance - and cannot adopt any spiritual discipline including Jnana, Karma and Bhakti Yoga.

According to my school, only one real way to salvation exists and is called the Prapatti, also called Baranyasa or Bharasamarpanam - total surrender to Lord Vishnu and confessing to him, of my own inability in adopting any discipline for salvation. Once you adopt this resolution thru a process of baptism called the Samashrayanam and followed by Prapatti, the Lord will see to it that you will get salvation no matter what - even if you commit innumerable sins. THis is the beleif of my school. but many Hindus would disagree, just the way they reject Christian view of salvation.

Thus, you have viewed Hinduism from a very narrow perspective and tried to promote your superiority in views there. My school does not admit the Christian view of eternal damnation. As long as you fail to adopt the path of complete surrender, you will continue to be born in many life forms. The Lord will accept you as soon as you confess your own inability to do anything and fully surrender yourself to him. All Karma, past, present and future cease to operate with immediate effect of total surrender.

 

[Montalban]

Great, you talk to a few Hindus and generalize a billion people by statements such as these:

You know you're all the same



This person obviously is unaware of the variety of Indian cultures and languages.

 

[MahaSudarshanChakra]

Interesting indeed! I am not quite sure when you say “both”, do you mean to say both creation and evolution? To me they are contradictory to each other with your definition of evolution theory. You cannot believe in “Bing bang” and “steady state theory” simultaneously.

If a soul that has essentially evolved from a fish to man, we must have begun somewhere in the course of time possibly from “matsya” to “human”. Since all sanatanis believe in “cause and effect relationship”, you must also have to believe in “first cause” to result in the effects. Who set it motion? Who was responsible for that first cause?

Why are you christians jumping to use the term "contradiction" in every post of yours? You will naturally drive away people who want to discuss with you.

Creation Theory and Evolution Theory can easily coexist. Please note that I clearly mentioned that I do not beleive in abiogenesis and you silently bypassed that. Show some intellectual honesty.

God enabled the first life to form and Hinduism accepts that many life forms were initially created by God( rather prakriti because God is beyond nature). Mother Durga is the representiative of the intelligence of nature.

These initial organisms can eveolve into more complex and other life forms. Simply put, we dont beleive some chemical reactions produced the first life. It was initiated by the intelligent nature represented by the mother Durga also known as Yogamaya.

If, on the other hand, our soul is eternal and yet went through the process of evolution from fish to man, who did God write the scripture in the beginning for? Because, you believe “Sanatan Dharma” as “Eternal Religion”, right from the beginning human mind must have been there to comprehend it. He could not have written for the fish!!!!

The ten avatars are symbolic. You are forgetting that time is eternal, and Hindus dont just beleive in earth as the center of creation. God incarnates in every plane of conciousness and not as one son of God on earth.

Does christianity beelive in extra terrestrial life? If so, they also have to believe in the resseruction of Jesus to attain salvation?

 

[Karma2Grace]

Historically Hindus are a very peaceful group, and never moved beyond India for "soul saving". They taught spiritual wisdom to people who asked for it. If muslims and christians did not interfere, they would still be a very peaceful group and dont complain now.

So what is your opinion on ISKON, Devine Light Mission or Transcendental Meditation?

Do you have any word for eastern cult member who brainwashes a westerner that ‘Yoga’ is an exercise?

What do you think about RSS,VHP, Modi and Advani?

I did not read the last few posts because I was away for a while, but I noticed the thread was moved to another forum and a few posts deleted. I asked the mod about it, and said he suspected that many people of different faiths were claiming to be Hindus and then bashing Hinduism - he mentioned the user tantrikgoddess for example. If you have noticed on Hindunet there has been spurt of anti Hindu posts recently, from people claiming to be Hindus. So every anti Hindu post is currently viewed with suspicion. The mod Shaivite recently posted about it on the General Talk forum - read that post if you want.”

I was also ejected from the forum, the moderator (Shaivite) was so arrogant and delete post disable accounts with out any reasons, my account was removed because I posted some verses from Rig Veda which supports “blood Sacrifice” , I posted with proper reference from Vedas

Do you know the concept of salvation in my Hindu school kniown as Srivaishnavism? Just surrender to Lord Vishnu and our guru Acharya Ramanuja. Salvation is assured under all conditions. Your post displays lack of knowlede of Hinduism, and no wonder it was deleted. You are completely assuming Hinduism is advaita. It is not - there are many schools that advocate concepts similar and give even more emphasis on grace than Christianity.

But here the moderators are so liberal not deleting posts of people like ‘Satay‘ , You cannot expect a Christian to accept Karma and Reincarnation while debating on the Hindu forum

 

[NickD]

So what is your opinion on ISKON, Devine Light Mission or Transcendental Meditation?

Do you have any word for eastern cult member who brainwashes a westerner that ‘Yoga’ is an exercise?

What do you think about RSS,VHP, Modi and Advani?







I was also ejected from the forum, the moderator (Shaivite) was so arrogant and delete post disable accounts with out any reasons, my account was removed because I posted some verses from Rig Veda which supports “blood Sacrifice” , I posted with proper reference from Vedas







But here the moderators are so liberal not deleting posts of people like ‘Satay‘ , You cannot expect a Christian to accept Karma and Reincarnation while debating on the Hindu forum

I was happend to be on hindunet forum, oh boy, people really use filthy language on christianity.

Even though the thread says, "Hindu-christian relations", but never notice any Hindu be polite with a christian if they knew you are are a christian.


NickD.

 

[indianx]

If you have noticed on Hindunet there has been spurt of anti Hindu posts recently, from people claiming to be Hindus.

That kind of behaviour is the most pathetic in my eyes. I can even respect those who call Sanatana Dharma wicked or any such thing. I would completely disagree with them, but I respect them for their honesty in their beliefs. But, I can't give a single ounce of respect to these pathetic cowards who try to hide and then bash Sanatana Dharma or any other religion for that matter. I accept that's one of my faults, since I am trying to be as non-judgemental as possible, but this pet peeve still remains.

 

[satay]

My implication that this is my turf was only tongue-n-cheek suggesting that mere metaphor of the word Christianity.

It was evident at the other site that I was having to deal with lot of fear and bias (Namarupa) and at the words like Christ and Christianity. My friend, in that sense you are right that I still do maintain that our true “home turf “ is our connection to our father and everything else is mere detail.



I was not so much personally offended as much as the fact that my personal attempts to clarify was misunderstood as attacks. You and your like-minded friends sabotaged a genuine spiritual exchange with the last person on the other site.

It is the fear that all of you have in you that somehow triggers anger in you at the mention of the word Christ or Christianity. People like you are the prime reason that come with preconceived dogmas and try to analyse with non-sensical conclusions. You will never understand Christ and his message unless you are Christ conscious.



If you objectively and without any Hindu dogma or bias read my posts carefully, you will see that I have never overtly attacked Hindu Dharma. My attempt to clarify the nature of Christ and His divine message brought forth having to make certain comparisons with Hindu Saints and Sages. But this was all done in context and in an attempt to clarify my views.

Remember, in this type of discussions it is the “intent” that is more important than the “content”.



My friend, I would like to emphasize once again that these exchanges are not meant to be at a personal and judgmental level. Being judgmental and having discerning mind are totally different.




But you seem to not display that attitude. It would be nice to see this type of talk in action.



I am glad you are finally seeing through names and veils (namarupa) and getting the essence that lies at the core of all of our exchanges. That is the connection between son and the father without labels. If you continue in this way, I too can see a healthy exchange and a friendship.

Blessings,

Dear friend Nirotu,

I am having a debate with myself to see if I should continue discussion with you after months of discussing the same things over and over at the hindunet.

My friend, I feel too sad to see you emotionally addicted to the Malecha nonsense you are addicted to. This addiction clearly clouds your judgment and ability to reason. But give me a few hours or a day and I shall gain the strength to comment on your addiction.

Blessings always,
satay
ps: moderator note: I am not using the term Malecha in a derogatory way...I am using it in the same sense as one would use the term idoltary.

 

[satay]

So what is your opinion on ISKON, Devine Light Mission or Transcendental Meditation?

Do you have any word for eastern cult member who brainwashes a westerner that ‘Yoga’ is an exercise?

What do you think about RSS,VHP, Modi and Advani?







I was also ejected from the forum, the moderator (Shaivite) was so arrogant and delete post disable accounts with out any reasons, my account was removed because I posted some verses from Rig Veda which supports “blood Sacrifice” , I posted with proper reference from Vedas







But here the moderators are so liberal not deleting posts of people like ‘Satay‘ , You cannot expect a Christian to accept Karma and Reincarnation while debating on the Hindu forum

Ahh...KnowTheTruth!!!

It doesn't matter which ID you hide behind...I can always spot you and your bs.

By the way, I am the sole reason you have been ousted from the hindunet time after time even when you hid behind so many ids...Soon the current id you are using there will be ousted too...tata...until you come back again hiding behind another id.

satay

 

[satay]

Yes, I too feel sad that you have not learned that generalizing people on the actions of a few is wrong.

I too was starting to believe that Christians were not as violent as they were made out to be, but then I read about some Christians murdering others in the newspaper, so they have proven me wrong and it is causing me philosophical sadness.

I was starting to believe that Christians were not as dirty as they were made out to be, but then I saw some Christians urinating on the road, so they have proven me wrong and it is causing me philosophical sadness.

This is exactly what your argument is. Now, I admit I put the second in for humour, but it servers its purpose to show the absurdity of the argument you're using. Just to make clear, I don't think and never did think that Christians were dirty, I just used it as an example of the rhetoric he was using.

satay

 

[indianx]

By the way, I am the sole reason you have been ousted from the hindunet time after time even when you hid behind so many ids...Soon the current id you are using there will be ousted too...tata...until you come back again hiding behind another id.

Ah, is this the reason why she/he was banned from hindunet? In the beginning, even I was sympathizing a little with his/her oppressed minority crap, but if multiple ids is the cause, then it all comes into place.

I wonder how Christian Forums would react if a member joined under different ids.

 

[satay]

I wonder how Christian Forums would react if a member joined under different ids.

No idea but no way to prevent it. It's not the multiple ids that was the cause of her ban over and over again but the fact that she kept repeating the same anti-hindu nonsense and breaking the rules of the site. You have to realise that mods at the hindu site are very liberal and to get banned there takes a lot of time and effort and nonsense. Not like here...a hindu breathes and gets a warning....

satay