Respecting the dead...

[stan1980]

While this place was shut down I was browsing some other forums just to kill time, anyway I noticed one thread on Margaret Thatcher (she was UK prime minister for 11 years for those of you unfamiliar). In it, it seemed the majority of people can't wait till she dies and had decided they were actually going to have street parties the day she snuffs it.

Now I didn't agree with everything she done, not least she took away my free milk and biscuits before I even began school, but I do have a certain admiration for her; she got to the top against all the odds in a male dominated world.

Obviously Thatcher isn't going to care if people are celebrating her death, so I suppose I shouldn't either, but it all seems a bit distasteful to me. In the past, I haven't been averse to making jokes about deaths so you could call me a hypocrite in that respect, but my question is this, is it right to find joy in people's death, even if you don't like them? Is it even healthy? Anyone here ever found joy at anyone's death?

 

[God-free]

While this place was shut down I was browsing some other forums just to kill time, anyway I noticed one thread on Margaret Thatcher (she was UK prime minister for 11 years for those of you unfamiliar). In it, it seemed the majority of people can't wait till she dies and had decided they were actually going to have street parties the day she snuffs it.

Now I didn't agree with everything she done, not least she took away my free milk and biscuits before I even began school, but I do have a certain admiration for her; she got to the top against all the odds in a male dominated world.

Obviously Thatcher isn't going to care if people are celebrating her death, so I suppose I shouldn't either, but it all seems a bit distasteful to me.

I know very little about UK politics, but I know who Margaret Thatcher is. Is it possible to be ousted from the position of prime minister? If so, it seems to me that she wouldn't have lasted 11 years if she wasn't doing something right. And, I agree with you, that she deserves some admiration.

In the past, I haven't been averse to making jokes about deaths so you could call me a hypocrite in that respect, but my question is this, is it right to find joy in people's death, even if you don't like them? Is it even healthy? Anyone here ever found joy at anyone's death?

In Margaret Thatchers' case I think looking forward to her death is definitely in very bad taste. But, is it right or wrong to think this way? I don't know. People can think what they like, as long as they don't take unlawful action to make this particular kind of wish come true. I don't know about the health aspect of thinking this way. I suppose it would depend on the individual.

There have been times when I've been glad that certain people are no longer alive. I wouldn't call it 'joy' though. For example, when serial killers die (naturally or not), what I feel is more like 'relief' than 'joy'.

~Barbara

 

[Verv]

It is not so wrong to celebrate the death of a murderer or another criminal who enacted repression upon the people because it marks the freedom of the people.

However, if you simply disgreed with someone's fiscal policies... You are just being a jerk, OK?

 

[Ryanswife]

I was not too upset when my husband's grandmother died. I know those feelings were wrong, but they weren't intentional. I did not celebrate her death either. That would have been intentional and even more wrong then my feelings of satisfaction.

 

[platzapS]

People celebrated when Saddam Hussein died. Yet people get called jerks when they celebrate the deaths of people like Jerry Falwell and Jesse Helms, who were far more of a threat to American freedom than Saddam Hussein could ever be.

I don't see a need to respect the dead just because they're dead. In many cases the world is better off without someone on it. Some people use their power and influence to monger hate and war and ignorance, and it's great when those people are no longer with us.

We should take into account the dead's family members, though, because no matter how evil a person is, they're still human and probably loved by somebody.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

It is not so wrong to celebrate the death of a murderer or another criminal who enacted repression upon the people because it marks the freedom of the people.

However, if you simply disgreed with someone's fiscal policies... You are just being a jerk, OK?

Her fiscal policies are what made her a murderer and criminal. People suffered and died, and still do, because of her idiotic supply-side economics.

I remember seeing stickers put over posters on the Tube a while back saying "Class War, 12 noon, Hyde Park, the Saturday after Thatcher dies." I do hope the AK's and red flags are being provided, as I wouldn't be able to afford them since some useless cow privatised all the utilities and public transport.

Apparently she's getting a £3m state funeral. I loved some of the comments made in papers and on forums when that was announced. Like "I hope it's open coffin because I want to make sure the ***** is dead."

She can have a state funeral for all I care...the sooner the better, in fact.

 

[praying]

To me it just seems wrong to find joy in anyone's death, even serial killers or people like Sadaam. That is not to say you can't express your dislike even hatred of said individual, but to celebrate someone's death I can't see doing it.

 

[Belk]

While this place was shut down I was browsing some other forums just to kill time, anyway I noticed one thread on Margaret Thatcher (she was UK prime minister for 11 years for those of you unfamiliar). In it, it seemed the majority of people can't wait till she dies and had decided they were actually going to have street parties the day she snuffs it.

Now I didn't agree with everything she done, not least she took away my free milk and biscuits before I even began school, but I do have a certain admiration for her; she got to the top against all the odds in a male dominated world.

Obviously Thatcher isn't going to care if people are celebrating her death, so I suppose I shouldn't either, but it all seems a bit distasteful to me. In the past, I haven't been averse to making jokes about deaths so you could call me a hypocrite in that respect, but my question is this, is it right to find joy in people's death, even if you don't like them? Is it even healthy? Anyone here ever found joy at anyone's death?

If I found the person worthy of respect in life, I will respect them in death. The simple fact of them dying does not make them respectable.

However I think when people are talking about respect for the dead, what they really mean is respect for those who are grieving. Even if I did not respect a person there is a certain period of time that I simply keep my mouth shut out of respect for those who are feeling a sense of profound loss.

 

[stan1980]

I know very little about UK politics, but I know who Margaret Thatcher is. Is it possible to be ousted from the position of prime minister? If so, it seems to me that she wouldn't have lasted 11 years if she wasn't doing something right. And, I agree with you, that she deserves some admiration.

She won 3 elections. She was ousted out internally rather than by any public election, although it is debatable whether she would have won another election as public opinion had started to go against her. I could sit here and right an essay about her 'rights' and 'wrongs' but it probably wouldn't make very interesting reading in an E&M forum, but she certainly wasn't all bad.

People celebrated when Saddam Hussein died. Yet people get called jerks when they celebrate the deaths of people like Jerry Falwell and Jesse Helms, who were far more of a threat to American freedom than Saddam Hussein could ever be.

Yes, I actually felt sorry for the guy when I saw the pictures of him being hung, even though he was a brutal dictator.

Her fiscal policies are what made her a murderer and criminal. People suffered and died, and still do, because of her idiotic supply-side economics.

 

[keith99]

Joy as expressed in the OP, no. Joy as relief, yes, when my maternal grandfather died. He had suffered from Alzheimers for years, and my Grandmother suffered from it even more. Try to imagine holding the hand of a man you have been married to for over 60 years (and who was your childhood sweetheart from preteen) and having him ask for you, not beaing able to recognise that you are the person holding his had.

I might feel joy as relief in a different sense if the police finally cornered a psyco and he died in hte confrontation.

But Joy as expressed by a party? Nope, very bad taste. Also very foolish in a Machavellian sense. Few men (or women) are entirely without friends or followers. Such acts are very apt to inspire the friends or followers of the dead person. The more the dead individual is in some way deserving of such scorn, the more likely their followers would express their rage in nasty ways.

EDIT:

Parties in a different sense seems to me the best of ways to mark someone passing. If people observe my death at all I would prefer it to be over a pint. I've got to remember to make provision for a few kegs of truely good beer and BBQ for my death party.

 

[Bombila]

I've never celebrated anyone's death, nor wished for anyone's death. I've celebrated someone being incarcerated, certainly. I've felt relief when a relative in great pain died, ending his suffering.

I don't think most people who say they will celebrate someone's (like Thatcher) death actually will, or actually wish for their death. I think it is mostly boastful talk, exaggeration of their real feelings, which likely don't in reality amount to much more than dislike.

 

[Bombila]

I've never celebrated anyone's death, nor wished for anyone's death. I've celebrated someone being incarcerated, certainly. I've felt relief when a relative in great pain died, ending his suffering.

I don't think most people who say they will celebrate someone's (like Thatcher) death actually will, or actually wish for their death. I think it is mostly boastful talk, exaggeration of their real feelings, which likely don't in reality amount to much more than dislike.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Well, she privatised British Gas, which means shareholders rather than taxpayers decide the price of gas. Shareholders and CEOs don't need to worry about bills, because a few grand a year is pennies to them. Whereas we understand reality and know that increasing prices means people can't afford gas bills...leaving pensioners to choose between dying from cold or dying from starvation. Had she not been so lucky, she'd been the one making that choice. So she is culpable of condemning her fellow human beings to a fate that could 'but for the grace of God' (so to speak) have been hers. Why shouldn't I, then, be glad when she dies because she has deliberately wished the same on others.

 

[cantata]

I think it would be deeply inconsiderate to her family to publicly celebrate her death.

I also don't see what cause there is to celebrate, when she's not been in power for nearly two decades.

 

[Uphill Battle]

exactly, cantata.

she is, technically, old news.

as for the OP, celebrating someones death is kind of ribald... lacking in taste entirely. be privately glad that you don't have to deal with whatever issues someone brings, sure, if you must. But cheering someone kicking it is just childish.

 

[stan1980]

Well, she privatised British Gas, which means shareholders rather than taxpayers decide the price of gas. Shareholders and CEOs don't need to worry about bills, because a few grand a year is pennies to them. Whereas we understand reality and know that increasing prices means people can't afford gas bills...leaving pensioners to choose between dying from cold or dying from starvation. Had she not been so lucky, she'd been the one making that choice. So she is culpable of condemning her fellow human beings to a fate that could 'but for the grace of God' (so to speak) have been hers. Why shouldn't I, then, be glad when she dies because she has deliberately wished the same on others.

I don't think this makes her a criminal or a murderer, even in the loosest sense of the word. We could sit here all day playing the blame game with all sorts of people but I just think the hate she in particular still receives is way out of proportion.

I think it would be deeply inconsiderate to her family to publicly celebrate her death.

I also don't see what cause there is to celebrate, when she's not been in power for nearly two decades.

Yes, precisely.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

I grew up in the Thatcher years and went on marches protesting her policies and her ethics.
She caused a doubling of unemployment through her taxations to businesses, she also sold off British Telecom and british gas, and had been previously mentioned privatised transport which has all led to the problems we have in this country today.
She was ruthless with the Miners and British coal which led to strikes and the worst injustice to the coal industry and its workers and families that caused abstract poverty to all involved.
Trade unions lost their power, (which was a good thing in most cases) but it led to exploitation of the workers and when issues within the work enviroment were untenable the workers had no recourse because they had no union leaders to help them.

She issued section 28 that made all material on gay issues in schools prohibated.

On her good points she helped to stop apartheid in South Africa and was monumental in her efforts for Nelson Mandella to be freed.

She rallied our country when the Falklands war took place and she was right to challenge the Argentinians(but make no mistake there were issues with that war and how propaganda was used) and her determination won us that war.

She was also a key instigator to Glasnost and helped to get Russia, Britain and America to cut down on nuclear arms.

No I did not like her, no I would never want to see her back in power, but I would certainly not celebrate her death.I did not agree with most of her policies and they are too numerous to list .
To shift this mortal coil is the most saddest part of life, and we will all face it eventually.

 

[quatona]

but my question is this, is it right to find joy in people's death, even if you don't like them?

Hi stan, you already know that I don´t know how to deal with right/wrong questions. So forgive me if I give you my thoughts on the matter freely.

If the person actually has a negative impact on your life, I can see how her death can be welcomed as a liberation and relief. This is apparently not the case in the given scenario, though.
However, I would recommend the person to focus (and celebrate, if they wish to celebrate) more on the achieved improvements than on he death of the person.

Is it even healthy?

This is a question I can answer.
I think it is very unhealthy - even in the above assumed scenario. If you want to celebrate make sure you celebrate something positive.

Anyone here ever found joy at anyone's death?

Not me.
Well, when a close person who had wished to die for a long time (long and painful uncurable disease) finally died, I was happy her suffering had come to an end. I don´t know if that´s relevant here, though.

 

[stan1980]

I grew up in the Thatcher years and went on marches protesting her policies and her ethics.
She caused a doubling of unemployment through her taxations to businesses, she also sold off British Telecom and british gas, and had been previously mentioned privatised transport which has all led to the problems we have in this country today.
She was ruthless with the Miners and British coal which led to strikes and the worst injustice to the coal industry and its workers and families that caused abstract poverty to all involved.
Trade unions lost their power, (which was a good thing in most cases) but it led to exploitation of the workers and when issues within the work enviroment were untenable the workers had no recourse because they had no union leaders to help them.

She issued section 28 that made all material on gay issues in schools prohibated.

On her good points she helped to stop apartheid in South Africa and was monumental in her efforts for Nelson Mandella to be freed.

She rallied our country when the Falklands war took place and she was right to challenge the Argentinians(but make no mistake there were issues with that war and how propaganda was used) and her determination won us that war.

She was also a key instigator to Glasnost and helped to get Russia, Britain and America to cut down on nuclear arms.

No I did not like her, no I would never want to see her back in power, but I would certainly not celebrate her death.I did not agree with most of her policies and they are too numerous to list .
To shift this mortal coil is the most saddest part of life, and we will all face it eventually.

A well balanced post

Even the negative stuff, I can quite easily see the motives behind them. I've seen a lot of actions from leaders with much poorer motives.

I sympathise with the coal miners who lost their jobs, but I also blame Arthur Scargill heavily. He was supposed to be representing the miners, but he used them as pawns while he sat in luxury. Thatcher didn't have much choice but to take him on. She won and she had to. It was just a shame that it was the working man who paid the price and not Scargill. You could argue that Thatcher was too ruthless, but it's a tricky situation.

The only thing I can't really defend is section 28, which I only just became aware of from your post. Strangely, she was very pro gay rights in her early days, so I'm not sure what exactly made her change her mind. Maybe she got swept up in the HIV scare, I dunno, just speculating.

 

[stan1980]

Hi stan, you already know that I don´t know how to deal with right/wrong questions.

Really? you never mentioned before

So forgive me if I give you my thoughts on the matter freely.

That's fine, that's kind of all I expect when I ask the question.

If the person actually has a negative impact on your life, I can see how her death can be welcomed as a liberation and relief. This is apparently not the case in the given scenario, though.
However, I would recommend the person to focus (and celebrate, if they wish to celebrate) more on the achieved improvements than on he death of the person.

This is a question I can answer.
I think it is very unhealthy - even in the above assumed scenario. If you want to celebrate make sure you celebrate something positive.


Not me.
Well, when a close person who had wished to die for a long time (long and painful uncurable disease) finally died, I was happy her suffering had come to an end. I don´t know if that´s relevant here, though.

Yep, I agree with all that, plus like others have mentioned, it is completely understandable to be happy that one's suffering has come to an end.