Required proof

timewerx · Jul 14, 2017

UnderPar said:
Hmm you think a lot of Christians like that idea. That by works one can enter heaven, well that's what it will come down to.

I don't think many Christians will be happy with it.

But we have John 14:12:
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

A sign that one believes is works. And the works that Jesus did is loving, defending the weak and the good and exposing the works of evil and evil people.

And anyone who does that is a sign of indwelling of God even if they don't believe that God exists.

The belief of God is mostly superficial anyway. And those who don't believe is not usually their fault.

klutedavid · Jul 14, 2017

UnderPar said:
According to the gospels lots of things happened, but according to what other sources did Jesus ride in on(One, or two donkeys?)

Hello UnderPar.

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

There were four separate accounts of this king riding a donkey. This event occurred two thousand years ago, how many accounts do you want?

2PhiloVoid · Jul 14, 2017

UnderPar said:
I know. ..Ooo you know what. I'm bored of reading the Bible.

...yeah, that can happen, just like I get bored reading all my atheist books.

Vyrzaharak · Jul 14, 2017

UnderPar said:
Hmm you think a lot of Christians like that idea. That by works one can enter heaven, well that's what it will come down to.

Very few actually would, if any at all. Christians are rarely any different from their secular counterparts when you involve works, although faith doesn't make anything easier contrary to popular opinion.

Ever heard of Soren Kierkegaard?

2PhiloVoid · Jul 14, 2017

UnderPar said:
If I never get the evidence that Jesus is God, and because of this I can never be sure. If I end up not believing in him in this life, but it ends up that Jesus is real. Will he judge me based on this factor?

UnderPar, I know you'd like to have proof, but don't you think it would be strange if I could offer you proof that I myself have never received? All I can do (and all most Christians can really do) is offer you my own perception about how I think it makes sense to me. The only problem is that my belief is bound up in a collection of marriage experiences, two degrees I've earned, and several hundred PhD level books sitting on my shelves. There are no miracle stories I can share, just epistemological notes on my brain that tell me "Jesus is the Answer to all of ... the crud!!"

And that's it. That's the truth and the reality of it as I know it. Other Christians will have their own stories or views to share. But the proof you're looking for probably wont' be in any of that pudding ...

2PhiloVoid

miknik5 · Jul 15, 2017

UnderPar said:
If I never get the evidence that Jesus is God, and because of this I can never be sure. If I end up not believing in him in this life, but it ends up that Jesus is real. Will he judge me based on this factor?

Blessed are those who have not seen and believe

Getting the "required proof" does not make one more exceptional in the BODY

It isnt those who never received the "required proof" (based on their carnal Lowe fleshly senses) who are called blessed

miknik5 · Jul 15, 2017

UnderPar said:
That's just it, I don't want to believe and believe more. I want to know he's real. So far not one Christian has made a convincing argument or offered me any evidence that their God is real.

HOPE keeps the saint persevering
GOD has done it that way and the FACT that you are yearning to know HIM is evidence that you have this HOPE

You may not get the evidence now but faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We walk by faith sir
Not by sight

miknik5 · Jul 15, 2017

Those who HOPE in HIM
are receiving the goal of their FAITH

And those who HOPE in HIM will never be put to shame

Read everything you can about THIS HOPE

Albion · Jul 15, 2017

UnderPar said:
If I never get the evidence that Jesus is God, and because of this I can never be sure. If I end up not believing in him in this life, but it ends up that Jesus is real. Will he judge me based on this factor?

Based upon everything we know, yes. However, there's always the chance that we could be mistaken.

toLiJC · Jul 15, 2017

UnderPar said:
If I never get the evidence that Jesus is God, and because of this I can never be sure. If I end up not believing in him in this life, but it ends up that Jesus is real. Will he judge me based on this factor?

if you don't commit spiritual lawlessness/wickedness, for example by worshiping another god/lord(christ) (IOW, idols), or by practicing occultism/esoterism (e.g. yoga of krishna or patanjali), or by serving heretical religion, then God won't have a reason to punish you for spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness; in principle knowing that Jesus is a part of the true God is a matter of practicing the faith seriously/right (enough)

Blessings

-V- · Jul 15, 2017

UnderPar said:
That's just it, I don't want to believe

Nothing will convince people when they've already decided, "I don't want to believe."

miknik5 · Jul 15, 2017

UnderPar said:
Faiths fine, we all need faith.

-V- said:
Nothing will convince people when they've already decided, "I don't want to believe."

It's a very big problem because as we know without faith ir is impossible to please GOD for one would have to (first) believe HE is and a rewarded of all who diligently seek HIM

High Fidelity · Jul 15, 2017

I think you guys are missing a very important point:

The OP is asking for objective evidence that is not subjective evidence contingent on faith in the framework that claims that evidence to be true.

As Christians we have faith that the Bible is true, but it is ultimately faith. Quoting something as proof that requires that same faith for belief in the first place isn't going to get anywhere.

-V- · Jul 15, 2017

High Fidelity said:
The OP is asking for objective evidence ...

Such a thing doesn't exist. Other than your own existence, you basically have no "objective" evidence for anything.

Theoretically, you could just be a brain in a jar. Everything you perceive as "real" is just an illusion, nothing more than your brain being electronically stimulated to think it is real.

miknik5 · Jul 15, 2017

High Fidelity said:
I think you guys are missing a very important point:

The OP is asking for objective evidence that is not subjective evidence contingent on faith in the framework that claims that evidence to be true.

As Christians we have faith that the Bible is true, but it is ultimately faith. Quoting something as proof that requires that same faith for belief in the first place isn't going to get anywhere.

What HE said HE would do in HIS dialogue in the coming PROMISE of THE FATHER in John 13-17, HE indeed has done

Albion · Jul 15, 2017

High Fidelity said:
I think you guys are missing a very important point:

The OP is asking for objective evidence that is not subjective evidence contingent on faith in the framework that claims that evidence to be true..

Actually, the OP is asking if he'll be judged in the afterlife because of his lack of faith. He did not ask to be persuaded of the truth of the Bible.

UnderPar · Jul 15, 2017

TurtleFish The Challenged said:
It's an issue of the heart. The Bible is not just a book, pages and ink. It's the inspired Word of God. 2nd Timothy 3:16. God chooses to use the Bible as a way to reach out to you, to speak to you directly. If your heart is closed, it will be complete foolishness to you. 1 Corinthians 1:18. If you resist the pull of the Spirit on your heart (inner-most) continuously you will be in danger of rejecting your own personal relationship with God for good. You should know the whole talk of Heaven and Hell and your soul's reality is a serious issue, You get to choose, one or the other. Good or evil. Simplicity that even children can engage.

Are you tempting me with the fruit from the tree of forbidden knowledge. You know your God never said that we can eat from good and evil.

UnderPar · Jul 15, 2017

Albion said:
Actually, the OP is asking if he'll be judged in the afterlife because of his lack of faith. He did not ask to be persuaded of the truth of the Bible.

Yeah, but what are you going to do?

UnderPar · Jul 15, 2017

timewerx said:
I don't think many Christians will be happy with it.

But we have John 14:12:
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

A sign that one believes is works. And the works that Jesus did is loving, defending the weak and the good and exposing the works of evil and evil people.

And anyone who does that is a sign of indwelling of God even if they don't believe that God exists.

The belief of God is mostly superficial anyway. And those who don't believe is not usually their fault.

As Jesus said, few would enter.

Meh..

UnderPar · Jul 15, 2017

-V- said:
Such a thing doesn't exist. Other than your own existence, you basically have no "objective" evidence for anything.

Theoretically, you could just be a brain in a jar. Everything you perceive as "real" is just an illusion, nothing more than your brain being electronically stimulated to think it is real.

I stated what I'm looking for.

Required proof

the village i--o--t--

Well-Known Member

Critically Copernican

Active Member

Critically Copernican

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

"Let not your heart be troubled"

Facilitator

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

"Let not your heart be troubled"

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

"Let not your heart be troubled"

Facilitator

Life's linchpin

Life's linchpin

Life's linchpin

Life's linchpin

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency