Replacement View

[Jerrysch]

Is the notion that New Testament citations of the New Covenant indicate that the promises given to Israel find their complete fulfillment in the church. that the church does not merely partake of Israel’s New Covenant blessings but rather completely takes them over, is this view the correct way to view the church's relationship to the New Covenant? Why or why not?

 

[Dave Taylor]

No, This view is incorrect.

This is the dispensational view of those who are non-dispensational.

Rarely, (with exceptions in cults like the British Israelites, etc...) is this true however.

I would restate your comment to align it the the NT as follows:

"New Testament citations of the New Covenant indicate that the promises given to the faithful in the OT that primarily consisted of people of Jacob's descent find their complete fulfillment in the Christ, and that same group of faithful people from the OT expand to further include the new vast representation of additional people of faith from all nations, tongues, and tribes. From Christ forward; there is no division based on race or ethnicity at all; just one faithful people of God with noone of faith ever being replaced or cast aside.

No-one is ever replaced by another person; just new additions (regardless of race) are graffed in; and participate in the fulfillment of the Promises....which the NT correctly identifies as being Christ; not vain material possessions."

 

[R.J.S]

Is the notion that New Testament citations of the New Covenant indicate that the promises given to Israel find their complete fulfillment in the church. that the church does not merely partake of Israel’s New Covenant blessings but rather completely takes them over, is this view the correct way to view the church's relationship to the New Covenant? Why or why not?

Yes it is correct because that is what Scripture teaches. God elected the seed of Abraham which was Christ and all in Christ are the seed of Abraham and hence true Israel.

 

[Hedgehog]

The gospel was preached to the Jew first. To say "the church takes over" sounds like Jews were left in the dust.It was their scripture that spoke it all,if they have chosen not to see it, thats very sad.
It doesnt mean gentiles have taken over though.Jews have equal access.EVERYONE has equal access.

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes it is correct because that is what Scripture teaches. God elected the seed of Abraham which was Christ and all in Christ are the seed of Abraham and hence true Israel.

Would it be safe to say that you then expect to see all the provisions of the New Covenant to be fulfilled to "all in Christ"? (and exactly who is this "all in Christ"? just for the record)

 

[Dave Taylor]

exactly who is this "all in Christ"?

Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."

Acts 17:25 "seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us"

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Is the notion that New Testament citations of the New Covenant indicate that the promises given to Israel find their complete fulfillment in the church. that the church does not merely partake of Israel’s New Covenant blessings but rather completely takes them over, is this view the correct way to view the church's relationship to the New Covenant? Why or why not?

I like Hedgehog's and Dave Taylor's replies. The Scriptures are clear that believing Jews and believing Gentiles are co-heirs together, which means Gentiles should not be forced to become Jews (Jerusalem Council Acts 15) nor should Jews be forced to become Gentiles. Christians in different cultures (and different theologies!) should recognize the unity amidst our obvious diversity.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes it is correct because that is what Scripture teaches. God elected the seed of Abraham which was Christ and all in Christ are the seed of Abraham and hence true Israel.

Should it then be expected that the church should take over all of the provisions of the New Covenant?

 

[5solas]

Is the notion that New Testament citations of the New Covenant indicate that the promises given to Israel find their complete fulfillment in the church. that the church does not merely partake of Israel’s New Covenant blessings but rather completely takes them over, is this view the correct way to view the church's relationship to the New Covenant? Why or why not?

The Church does not replace Israel. The Church is the grown up Israel.

How could the Church replace Israel?

There is only one people of God - all believers of all time belong to that people.

 

[Jerrysch]

The Church does not replace Israel. The Church is the grown up Israel.

How could the Church replace Israel?

There is only one people of God - all believers of all time belong to that people.

It doesn't replace Israel, you are correct in this, but those who would transfer all the promices given to ethnic Israel to the church practice "Replacement Theology"

 

[LukeBritt]

Gal. 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek..."
The promises were open to Gentiles after Israel rejected God. This was done to make Israel jealous (Rom. 11:11).
"Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened." (Rom. 11:7)
The idea is not Replacement theology; it is that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, so now Israel and Church are synonymous. Believing Jews have just as much a part of the promises as a Believing Gentile. There is no partiality in Christ.

 

[Jerrysch]

Gal. 3:28 - "There is neither Jew nor Greek..."
The promises were open to Gentiles after Israel rejected God. This was done to make Israel jealous (Rom. 11:11).
"Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened." (Rom. 11:7)
The idea is not Replacement theology; it is that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, so now Israel and Church are synonymous. Believing Jews have just as much a part of the promises as a Believing Gentile. There is no partiality in Christ.

Your first quote disproves your premice that "so now Israel and Church are synonymous", for with that reasoning Rom 11:11 would read ""There is neither Jew nor Greek..."
The promises were open to Gentiles after Israel rejected God. This was done to make the church jealous. If they are synonymous who is making who jealous?

 

[R.J.S]

Should it then be expected that the church should take over all of the provisions of the New Covenant?

Yes and they do in Christ.

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes and they do in Christ.

The New Covenant;

Jer 31: 31"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
35Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36"If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."


37Thus says the LORD:
"If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Your arguement is with the word of God.

 

[R.J.S]

Your arguement is with the word of God.

 

[Dave Taylor]

but those who would transfer all the promices given to ethnic Israel to the church practice "Replacement Theology"

That's where they missed the boat....

The promises were never intented for 'ethnic Israel'....They were intended for 'Faithful Israel' (which at one time was primarily comprised of by ethnic Israelites)

'Ethnic Israel', however, was often also comprised of wicked demons who were always diametrically opposed to God.

God's Promises were to His children, the people of faith; regardless of race (that's why you see Abraham, a Gentile, and His son Isaac, a Gentile too; participating fully)....by their faith, not their race.

That is how Galatians fulfilles the promise to Abraham's seed and descendency...not via bloodline; but via faith. The bloodline only fulfilled the prophecy of by whom the Messiah would come through...not the demarcation point of salvation or the promises.

'Israel' came into existense, not because of the 'race' of Jacob; but because of the 'faith' of Jacob....and all those faithful who would come later.

That is why Paul wrote that not all Israel are Israel; and why Paul wrote that 'he was more' than just a Jew and a Hebrew because of Christ...showing that lineage didn't matter; but faithfulness to the Lord was what mattered.

'Faithful Israel' finds it natural extension and continuation within 'the faithful church' that grew to include primarily Gentiles.

 

[Dave Taylor]

That is why Paul in several places is so adamant in teaching that there is 'one body';

and that faithful Israel and faithful church are all within one body; regardless of race or ethnicity.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." Ephesians 4:4-7

There is no racial distinction within the one Body...

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." I Corinthians 12:12-13

Anyone outside of the body will be thrown into the fiery flames for their lack of faith, disobedience, and rejection of Christ.

 

[Dave Taylor]

If they are synonymous who is making who jealous?

The faithful are making the unfaithful jealous, thus desiring what the faitthful have; and drawing them to repentence and acceptance of the Lord.

 

[LukeBritt]

Thank you.