Replacement Theology

[janxharris]

The Kingdom is taken from those who refuse to give God what rightfully belongs to Him. Ethnicity isn't a factor.

Matthew 21:43,44
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Previous to this, Jesus describes who the 'you' is:

Matthew 21:33-42
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said. “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?

The servants are obviously the OT prophets and the son is Jesus. Remember that:

Matthew 15:24
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

If you add all this to what Jesus says in Matthew 23:39, then I don't understand why you would suggest that ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

This verse cannot apply to Christians because they would and do (in effect) say those words. Jesus came first to the Jews but they rejected Him (the religious leaders did and most of the people). Christ will not return until they finally receive Him and say those words.

What is your argument?

 

[janxharris]

The Kingdom is taken from those who refuse to give God what rightfully belongs to Him. Ethnicity isn't a factor.

Romans 9:30-33
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

 

[janxharris]

I agree but if you study the first five books of the bible (Torah) - faith was not a requirement. God said over and over to the Israelites, keep my commandments and do them. He wasn't concerned with motive only outward compliance. Therfore the old or Mosaic covenant was far different than the Abrahamic covenant and herein lies the problem.

Surely, one keeps God's commandments through faith? Hebrews 11 talks about the faith of those who lived after the mosaic law was given:

Hebrews 11:30-40
By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days. By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning;e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

[janxharris]

Thanks, crimsonleaf,

I dunno'.
I see a couple of points with bearing on what MacArthur says.

First the "unilateral" (unconditional) covenant (Ge 15:9-21) was a land grant, fulfilled under Solomon (1Kgs 4:21, 24-25 cf 2Sa 710-11).
God didn't renege on his promise of Canaan to Abraham, he fulfilled it.

The promise is eternal:
Genesis 17:8
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

So the return of the Jews in 1948 is significant.

And then Heb 11:13-16 shows that Abraham's hope was not in earthly land/country (Canaan) which he never received
(nor did Isaac or Jacob), but in heavenly land/country which he did receive.

Eh?

 

[janxharris]

However, her arguments are not based upon actual facts.

God was quite specific concerning his land grant to Abraham and his descendants. Even under Solomon the entirety of the land was not possessed. The Philistines remained entrenched enemies and a source of problems. Thus, it is premature to believe that God fulfilled His promise to Abraham and that Romans 11 is to only be applied spiritually to the church rather than to Israel.

God, in fact, has not rejected His people, Israel. Otherwise, Paul, at best, would have been mistaken when he wrote Romans 11 or a liar, this impolicating God as either mistaken or a liar. Of all the usages of "Israel" in the NT all but one clearly refer to the Jewish people and not to the church. The one exception does not clearly indicate either possibility.

Correct.

 

[janxharris]

The only problem with that is Josh 21:43-45, which reports otherwise:

"Now the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side just as he had sworn to their forefathers . .Not one of all the LORD'S good promises failed; everyone was fulfilled.

God had promised they would not occupy the land all at once (Ex 23:29-30), only incrementally for practical reasons, but the campaign to take possession of the land was over in Jos 21:43-45, and Israel was established in the promised land, with no power left in Canaan to remove her.

"Rest on every side" means secure borders, peace with neigboring countries and no threat within the land from enemies.

The promised incremental occupation of their secure possession of the promised land was completed under Solomon (1Kgs 4:21), and David (2Sa 8:3).

The Biblical testimony seems pretty clear that the land promised to Abraham was securely possessed and then occupied,
and its promise fulfilled.

In the faith,
Clare

That may be so, but the land promise was eternal. Israel currently only occupies a small fraction of it.

 

[janxharris]

I think that Romans 11's example of the cultivated olive tree makes the best sense of the question.

The cultivated tree is Israel, the children of faith. The cultivated branches are the national Israelites, the Hebrew people of the Abrahamic Covenant. The wild olive branches that were grafted in are those who were originally excluded from the covenant but found a place through faith.

So there is no replacement. There is only having a place in the Covenant.

Paul explained that many Jews rejected Jesus and were thus like cultivated olive branches cut off from the root because of unbelief. In their place, the many of the wild olive branches were hewn from the wild root and grafted onto the cultivates root, that is, into the Nation of Israel (by faith.)

Now, Paul warned against such pride as replacement theology, insisting that the cultivated branches were only temporarily blinded for the sake of the wild ones. Since they naturally came from the cultivated root, how much more naturally can they be grafted on?

And so, while the Israelites by nation (the Jews) are blinded, the Gentiles by faith are included until all that can be grafted on are grafted. When the fullness of Gentiles has come, there will be a harvest. During that harvest, like the parable of the wheat and the weeds, the fruitful Gentiles will be gathered to the Lord while the unfaithful and unfruitful Gentiles will be like wild olive branches hewn from the cultivated root.

And that will be the occasion for the natural branches, the Israelites by nation, to be grafted back on the cultivated root, the Covenant Israel.

That is what Revelation 12 meant by the woman fleeing to the wilderness while her offspring take the ropes. That is also what is meant by the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel being sealed and standing on Mount Zion in Rev. 14.

When the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, the national Israelites of the seed of Jacob will see again and will mourn for their Savior, whom they pierced.

"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." (Zechariah 13:1 KJV)

Exactly right.

Matthew 23:39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

[janxharris]

John MacArthur is incorrect. The kingdom promises to Israel were conditional.


If the kingdom promises to Israel were unconditional, then Jesus erred in saying that the kingdom "shall be TAKEN AWAY from you."

Romans 11:25

 

[janxharris]

Either you or Jesus have erred. Jesus said that the kingdom would be "taken away" from them and given to a nation "bearing the fruit of it."

God currently works through the Gentiles (which includes Messianic Jews) since the Jewish religious leaders rejected Him.

Please explain how Matthew 23:39 can mean anything other than that God 'awaits' for the Jews (especially the leaders) to say 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'?

 

[janxharris]

Jesus said nothing about the taking away of the kingdom being a temporary situation. The nation that now possesses the kingdom will continue to possess it unless it stops bearing fruit.

Romans 11 talks about a remnant which the Gentiles are grafted into.

The church has possessed the kingdom once and for all. Paul said that the resurrection and the rapture which was was promised to Israel has been given to the church:

The resurrection and the rapture was promised to Israel:



The resurrection and the rapture given to the church:



In Hosea Christ says TO ISRAEL "I will be your king" and that "I will ransom you from the grave."

Paul said TO THE CHURCH that the words of Hosea are fulfilled when WE are resurrected and raptured and that God gives US the victory.

[/QUOTE]

???

 

[Jack Terrence]

God currently works through the Gentiles (which includes Messianic Jews) since the Jewish religious leaders rejected Him.

Please explain how Matthew 23:39 can mean anything other than that God 'awaits' for the Jews (especially the leaders) to say 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'?

You overlooked verse 38. Jesus said that their house would be left "desolate." But He left the door open for THAT generation to still accept Him, which they did not.

Note that the verb is conditional. Jesus said, "You may not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.' " That generation passed away and never said it. Therefore, their house is left "desolate."

Jesus said NOTHING about the kingdom being taken away from the nation that now possesses it.

 

[janxharris]

You overlooked verse 38. Jesus said that their house would be left "desolate." But He left the door open for THAT generation to still accept Him, which they did not.

Note that the verb is conditional. Jesus said, "You may not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.' " That generation passed away and never said it. Therefore, their house is left "desolate."

Jesus said NOTHING about the kingdom being taken away from the nation that now possesses it.

Where is the reference to THAT generation? Their house is left desolate, yes, but not forever:

Zechariah 12:10-11
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.


Zechariah 14:2-5
I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquakea in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.


Jesus is not coming back until those that he came to (the Jews) who rejected him, repent and believe him. We must conclude then, that they will repent, else Jesus isn't coming back (and we know that is not a possibilty).

Only one translation from biblehub.com has 'may' as a translation (see last one in the list).

New International Version (©2011)
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
New Living Translation (©2007)
For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, 'Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the LORD!'"

English Standard Version (©2001)
For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, He who comes in the name of the Lord is the blessed One'!"

International Standard Version (©2012)
I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'How blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

NET Bible (©2006)
For I tell you, you will not see me from now until you say, 'Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For I say to you that you will not see me from now on, until you will say, 'Blessed is he who has come in the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH.'”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I can guarantee that you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For I say unto you, you shall not see me again, till you shall say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

American King James Version
For I say to you, You shall not see me from now on, till you shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.

American Standard Version
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For I say to you, you shall not see me henceforth till you say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
for I say unto you, Ye shall in no wise see me henceforth until ye say, Blessed be he that comes in the name of the Lord.

English Revised Version
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
For I say to you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
For I tell you that you will never see me again until you say, 'Blessed be He who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

World English Bible
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

Young's Literal Translation
for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed is he who is coming in the name of the Lord.'

 

[Jack Terrence]

Where is the reference to THAT generation? Their house is left desolate, yes, but not forever:

What!! He is facing the Jerusalem of HIS DAY and weeping for THEM and addressing THEM saying "YOU." Come on!!

Zechariah 12:10-11

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.


Zechariah 14:2-5I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquakea in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

First, Zechariah was CONDITIONAL. In chapter 1 God said, "Return to me and I will return to you." They never did. Therefore, God was not obligated to come back to THEM. Second, it is NOT talking about Jesus returning to the Mt. of Olives. It is Jehovah speaking. Jehovah and Jesus are distinguished in the context. The language about His feet was also used of His coming to Mt. Sinai. God came to Mt. Sinai and Israel sat at His feet and received the law. Do you take this literally?

Again, chapter 1 says, "Return to me and I willl return to you." it was CONDITIONAL.

Young's Literal Translation

for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed is he who is coming in the name of the Lord.'

Exactly! They (that generation) MAY not see Him again until THEY say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." THEY did not say it. THEY all died in unbelief. God owed THEM nothing!! THEY ALL perished in THEIR unbelief!

The verb is subjunctive which means that the fulfillment of that promise was contingent upon the people OF WHOM HE SPOKE doing something.

λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ' ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε, Εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.

Note that the verb's mood is identified as "S" which stands for subjunctive.

Greek Lexicon

 

[janxharris]

What!! He is facing the Jerusalem of HIS DAY and weeping for THEM and addressing THEM saying "YOU." Come on!!

You are making an assumption. It doesn't make you wrong, but it is still is an assumption. There are plenty of verses in scripture that has Jesus addressing people as 'you', but it is obvious that He means 'believers'.

Matthew 24:9
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."

First, Zechariah was CONDITIONAL. In chapter 1 God said, "Return to me and I will return to you." They never did. Therefore, God was not obligated to come back to THEM. Second, it is NOT talking about Jesus returning to the Mt. of Olives. It is Jehovah speaking. Jehovah and Jesus are distinguished in the context. The language about His feet was also used of His coming to Mt. Sinai. God came to Mt. Sinai and Israel sat at His feet and received the law. Do you take this literally?

If you add Zechariah 14 to Acts 1 then there is a strong case for Jesus' return to be at the Mount of Olives.

Acts 1:9-12
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city.

God says He will not reject Isreal completely:

Leviticus 26:44,45
Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the Lord their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant with their ancestors whom I brought out of Egypt in the sight of the nations to be their God. I am the Lord.’”

Exactly! They (that generation) MAY not see Him again until THEY say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." THEY did not say it. THEY all died in unbelief. God owed THEM nothing!! THEY ALL perished in THEIR unbelief!

Every translation bar one uses 'will not'.

Literal Greek:
I say indeed to you, no not me shall you see from until anyhow you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

 

[jdbear]

janx said,
Matthew 21:43,44
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
Previous to this, Jesus describes who the 'you' is:
Matthew 21:33-42
“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said. “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.” Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ?
The servants are obviously the OT prophets and the son is Jesus. Remember that:
Matthew 15:24
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
If you add all this to what Jesus says in Matthew 23:39, then I don't understand why you would suggest that ethnicity has nothing to do with it.
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
This verse cannot apply to Christians because they would and do (in effect) say those words. Jesus came first to the Jews but they rejected Him (the religious leaders did and most of the people). Christ will not return until they finally receive Him and say those words.

What is your argument?

Romans 9:30-33
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

The fact that Jesus came to the Jews first is incidental. God could just as easily have made the Prophets and Messiah Chinese if He wanted to.
When Jesus said, "The kingdom is taken from you...", He was speaking to Jews, but they were unbelieving Jews. The Kingdom isn't taken from believing Jews.
When He said, "...and given to a people who will produce its fruit", He meant believers, regardless of ethnicity.
When He said, "You won't see me until you say, 'Blessed is He...", what percentage of Israel was He speaking about? Did He mean every Jew, or a majority, or was Jesus telling us all that people (anyone and everyone) won't see Him until they consider Him blessed, until they go to Him in humility?
"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?" Jn.14:23
Jesus went on to explain how people (Jew or gentile) will see Him. (Jn.14)

The Kingdom is here now:

" Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Lk.17:20-21

We are actually in the Kingdom now, but it hasn't been manifested yet. When that day occurs, the unbelievers will be taken from it.

" Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way....The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." Lk.13:24-25,41

 

[coraline]

jdbear said:

When Jesus said, "The kingdom is taken from you...", He was speaking to Jews, but they were unbelieving Jews. The Kingdom isn't taken from believing Jews.

Agreed.

Paul, in Romans 9:28, places the predicted salvation of Israel within an imminent time-frame, actually linking it to his personal ministry in 11:25, and 15:16. This cannot be ignored.
Second, Israel's salvation would come at the time of Israel's judgment. See also Isaiah 2-4; 64-66; Zechariah 12-14, etc.. In other words, Israel would be saved by judgment, not from judgment. She would be saved by eschatological transformation, not national restoration.

In Zech.12-14 we see that a remnant of Israel was going to be saved and in ch.13, 2/3 of Israel was going to be destroyed .

This is where you lose me:

We are actually in the Kingdom now, but it hasn't been manifested yet. When that day occurs, the unbelievers will be taken from it.

" Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way....The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." Lk.13:24-25,41

1) Jesus is referring to natural Israel in the Lk.13 parable. This I believe happened in the fall of Jerusalem and the temple made with hands in AD70.

2) And when is the kingdom to come? You say "it hasn't been manifested yet. Is it here now or is it yet future?
When John and Jesus began to preach, they said that the kingdom of heaven was "at hand" - it was near! We also saw that later in His ministry Jesus said that the kingdom had arrived:

Matthew 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.​

Now, if the kingdom of God had come in the first century, then it should be clear that the nature of the kingdom was spiritual. Time defines nature. Jesus said that the kingdom "has come" - TIME, so the NATURE of his kingdom must be spiritual. I think that Jesus tried to stress this point by saying that the kingdom did not come with observation:

Luke 17:20, The Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God would come. He answered them, "People can't observe the coming of the kingdom of God.​

The spiritual nature of the kingdom is easy to understand if you see that the kingdom is the church. The Kingdom and the Church are synonymous. The two words are used as synonyms in Matthew:

Matthew 16:18-19, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."​

Here Jesus discusses the Kingdom and the Church almost in the same breath. Jesus tells Peter, "The confession you just made will be the foundation of My Church and I'm going to give you authority in the kingdom". When Jesus told Peter he was giving him authority in the Kingdom, was Peter being given power of something that he would never exercise. Would this exercise of power not happen in his life time? Had the Kingdom really come? Jesus said that the Kingdom "had come".
If you accept the concept of the Church and the Kingdom are one, then lights should begin turning on. We could say that when a person enters into a Covenant relationship with God by faith and becomes a member of his church that he also gains citizenship in Christ's Kingdom.

Colossians 1:12-14 (NKJV) giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.​

The Kingdom of the Son, Kingdom of light, and the redemption and forgiveness of sins are present tense. Rescued from the dominion of darkness is past tense. Why is the kingdom of the son and the kingdom of light present tense? Because the kingdom had come and it was present when Colossians was written.
So, let's look at how the Bible describes the Kingdom and the Church. We receive redemption and forgiveness in the Church:

Acts 2:47 (NKJV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.​

We also see that redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Kingdom of Christ:

Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV) He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.​

So redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Church and in the Kingdom of Christ. Why? Because they're the same. Could you have redemption in one and not the other? NO! The kingdom is the church, and the church is the kingdom.

Matthew 19:23-26 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."​

Their question, "Who then can be saved?" revealed the connection in their mind between entering the kingdom of heaven (v. 23) with being saved (v. 25). To enter God's kingdom is to be saved, and to be saved is to be in God's kingdom.
Both the Church and Kingdom are spoken of as being present tense. Both are spoken of as where we receive redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus. Both the Kingdom and the Church are headed by Christ.

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So, what do you mean by "the kingdom hasn't been manifested yet?

 

[janxharris]

The fact that Jesus came to the Jews first is incidental. God could just as easily have made the Prophets and Messiah Chinese if He wanted to.

Not sure why you have said this but, yes, God could have chosen anyone.

When Jesus said, "The kingdom is taken from you...", He was speaking to Jews, but they were unbelieving Jews. The Kingdom isn't taken from believing Jews.

Because God's people (the Jews) had, in general, rejected Him, God made the decision to switch and work through the Gentiles (the Gentile church). I agree, it does include Messianic Jews.

When He said, "...and given to a people who will produce its fruit", He meant believers, regardless of ethnicity.

I do agree but it is true that most members of the church are gentiles. Romans 9 is clear on this:

vv.30-33
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

When He said, "You won't see me until you say, 'Blessed is He...", what percentage of Israel was He speaking about? Did He mean every Jew, or a majority, or was Jesus telling us all that people (anyone and everyone) won't see Him until they consider Him blessed, until they go to Him in humility?

For me this verse is key. Jesus cannot be speaking of all men because not all men will believe in Him. Also, He cannot be speaking of all Jews, for the same reason. It is the Jewish religious leaders that Jesus attacks in this chapter (Matthew 23):

v.15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Jesus is making the point that it is the teachers that are to have greater responsibility (James 3:1).

Since Christians then and now do and would say those words 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord' (there, I just said them), Jesus is not talking about 'anyone'. His words can only make sense if their application is restricted to unbelieving Jews and particularly the Jewish religious leaders.

"Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?" Jn.14:23
Jesus went on to explain how people (Jew or gentile) will see Him. (Jn.14)

Indeed, God only has an intimate relationship with believers.

The Kingdom is here now:

" Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” Lk.17:20-21

We are actually in the Kingdom now, but it hasn't been manifested yet. When that day occurs, the unbelievers will be taken from it.

Okay, but I'm not sure how that helps.

" Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way....The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." Lk.13:24-25,41

Ok.

 

[janxharris]

jdbear said:

Agreed.

Paul, in Romans 9:28, places the predicted salvation of Israel within an imminent time-frame, actually linking it to his personal ministry in 11:25, and 15:16. This cannot be ignored.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The salvation of Israel occurred during Paul's ministry? Surely not? Please would you clarify?

Second, Israel's salvation would come at the time of Israel's judgment. See also Isaiah 2-4; 64-66; Zechariah 12-14, etc.. In other words, Israel would be saved by judgment, not from judgment. She would be saved by eschatological transformation, not national restoration.

Apologies, but I have no idea what you mean. Saved by judgement?

In Zech.12-14 we see that a remnant of Israel was going to be saved and in ch.13, 2/3 of Israel was going to be destroyed .

Indeed

This is where you lose me:[/B]


1) Jesus is referring to natural Israel in the Lk.13 parable. This I believe happened in the fall of Jerusalem and the temple made with hands in AD70.

2) And when is the kingdom to come? You say "it hasn't been manifested yet. Is it here now or is it yet future?
When John and Jesus began to preach, they said that the kingdom of heaven was "at hand" - it was near! We also saw that later in His ministry Jesus said that the kingdom had arrived:

Matthew 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.​

It had come but it was rejected. God 'awaits' (God is not really waiting) the day that His people (particularly the Jewish religious leaders because of their influence) finally receive Him.

Now, if the kingdom of God had come in the first century, then it should be clear that the nature of the kingdom was spiritual. Time defines nature. Jesus said that the kingdom "has come" - TIME, so the NATURE of his kingdom must be spiritual. I think that Jesus tried to stress this point by saying that the kingdom did not come with observation:

Luke 17:20, The Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God would come. He answered them, "People can't observe the coming of the kingdom of God.​

The spiritual nature of the kingdom is easy to understand if you see that the kingdom is the church. The Kingdom and the Church are synonymous. The two words are used as synonyms in Matthew:

Matthew 16:18-19, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."​

Here Jesus discusses the Kingdom and the Church almost in the same breath. Jesus tells Peter, "The confession you just made will be the foundation of My Church and I'm going to give you authority in the kingdom". When Jesus told Peter he was giving him authority in the Kingdom, was Peter being given power of something that he would never exercise. Would this exercise of power not happen in his life time? Had the Kingdom really come? Jesus said that the Kingdom "had come".
If you accept the concept of the Church and the Kingdom are one, then lights should begin turning on. We could say that when a person enters into a Covenant relationship with God by faith and becomes a member of his church that he also gains citizenship in Christ's Kingdom.

Colossians 1:12-14 (NKJV) giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.​

The Kingdom of the Son, Kingdom of light, and the redemption and forgiveness of sins are present tense. Rescued from the dominion of darkness is past tense. Why is the kingdom of the son and the kingdom of light present tense? Because the kingdom had come and it was present when Colossians was written.
So, let's look at how the Bible describes the Kingdom and the Church. We receive redemption and forgiveness in the Church:

Acts 2:47 (NKJV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.​

We also see that redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Kingdom of Christ:

Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV) He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.​

So redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Church and in the Kingdom of Christ. Why? Because they're the same. Could you have redemption in one and not the other? NO! The kingdom is the church, and the church is the kingdom.

Matthew 19:23-26 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."​

Their question, "Who then can be saved?" revealed the connection in their mind between entering the kingdom of heaven (v. 23) with being saved (v. 25). To enter God's kingdom is to be saved, and to be saved is to be in God's kingdom.
Both the Church and Kingdom are spoken of as being present tense. Both are spoken of as where we receive redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus. Both the Kingdom and the Church are headed by Christ.

Okay, I'm not too sure what to make of this...

 

[coraline]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The salvation of Israel occurred during Paul's ministry? Surely not? Please would you clarify?
Apologies, but I have no idea what you mean. Saved by judgement?
It had come but it was rejected. God 'awaits' (God is not really waiting) the day that His people (particularly the Jewish religious leaders because of their influence) finally receive Him.
...

To understand Romans 9-11, initially one must grasp who is "all Israel." Paul states right from the start who is "the Israel of God" and who is not in Rom.9:6-9,
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]

Are you with me so far? Ok, bc Paul describes the mystery throughout his personal ministry:

which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, Ephesians 3:5-6 NASB​

The mystery very simply is that Jew and Gentile are brought together now in one body called the Church. The First Testament spoke about Gentile salvation. The First Testament spoke about Jewish salvation. The First Testament never fully revealed that these two would be brought together in one body, the body of Christ, the Church. Gentiles are seen experiencing salvation in the First Testament. It is always in the context of Israel. Now here we find God is going to bring Gentile and Jews together in a relationship of oneness in the body. Paul further explains this in chapter 2:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:11-12 NASB​

Gentiles were "strangers to the covenants of promise," which are the roots of the olive tree. This was the position of all Gentiles; hopeless, without God.

But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, Ephesians 2:13-14 NASB​

We have been brought near to the God of Israel, Yahweh by the blood of Christ. We have been grafted into the roots of Israel. Notice that both groups are now one:

and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. Ephesians 2:16-18 NASB​

Both groups, Jew and Gentile, are in one body. In Christ we both have access to the Father. This is the mystery; Jew and Gentile are one in Christ, we are both in the body of Christ, we are fellow citizens. Isn't this what Paul just said in Romans 11:17-24 about the olive tree? Jews and Gentiles were grafted into the SAME tree, sharing the same root.
"So that you will not be wise in your own estimation"--again he emphasizes that he does not want the Gentiles or the Jews to be conceited. Neither is better than the othe;r both of them stand by grace in the same body. So there is no room for pride.
"That a partial hardening has happened to Israel"--"partial" here is adverbial and modifies "has happened," not hardening. It should read, "A hardening has happened in part to Israel." The hardening isn't partial, it is that it has happened to part of Israel. The remnant is not hardened. This is what Paul said in:

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; Romans 11:7 NASB​

Please notice that the "elect" obtained it, and the rest, which is Israel, were hardened. So only part of Israel is hardened, and that part is the great majority of them.
He's just saying that the hardening is not complete. There are some who have been saved out of their total depravity and brought to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, he's saying the same thing that he said in verse 5:

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. Romans 11:5 NASB​

Now, remember what Paul has said if there is no partial hardening of Israel, then there is no Gentile salvation:

Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! Romans 11:12 NASB​

So Israel's sin brought about Gentile salvation. Let me ask you this: What else did Israel's hardening bring about? It brought about the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which brought to an end the Old Covenant mode of existence and brought in the full consummation of the New Covenant. Judgment had to come on Israel because of her sin.

 

[janxharris]

To understand Romans 9-11, initially one must grasp who is "all Israel." Paul states right from the start who is "the Israel of God" and who is not in Rom.9:6-9,
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”[c]

Are you with me so far? Ok, bc Paul describes the mystery throughout his personal ministry:

which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, Ephesians 3:5-6 NASB​

The mystery very simply is that Jew and Gentile are brought together now in one body called the Church. The First Testament spoke about Gentile salvation. The First Testament spoke about Jewish salvation. The First Testament never fully revealed that these two would be brought together in one body, the body of Christ, the Church. Gentiles are seen experiencing salvation in the First Testament. It is always in the context of Israel. Now here we find God is going to bring Gentile and Jews together in a relationship of oneness in the body. Paul further explains this in chapter 2:

Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:11-12 NASB​

Gentiles were "strangers to the covenants of promise," which are the roots of the olive tree. This was the position of all Gentiles; hopeless, without God.

But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, Ephesians 2:13-14 NASB​

We have been brought near to the God of Israel, Yahweh by the blood of Christ. We have been grafted into the roots of Israel. Notice that both groups are now one:

and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. Ephesians 2:16-18 NASB​

Both groups, Jew and Gentile, are in one body. In Christ we both have access to the Father. This is the mystery; Jew and Gentile are one in Christ, we are both in the body of Christ, we are fellow citizens. Isn't this what Paul just said in Romans 11:17-24 about the olive tree? Jews and Gentiles were grafted into the SAME tree, sharing the same root.
"So that you will not be wise in your own estimation"--again he emphasizes that he does not want the Gentiles or the Jews to be conceited. Neither is better than the othe;r both of them stand by grace in the same body. So there is no room for pride.
"That a partial hardening has happened to Israel"--"partial" here is adverbial and modifies "has happened," not hardening. It should read, "A hardening has happened in part to Israel." The hardening isn't partial, it is that it has happened to part of Israel. The remnant is not hardened. This is what Paul said in:

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; Romans 11:7 NASB​

Please notice that the "elect" obtained it, and the rest, which is Israel, were hardened. So only part of Israel is hardened, and that part is the great majority of them.
He's just saying that the hardening is not complete. There are some who have been saved out of their total depravity and brought to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, he's saying the same thing that he said in verse 5:

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. Romans 11:5 NASB​

Now, remember what Paul has said if there is no partial hardening of Israel, then there is no Gentile salvation:

Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! Romans 11:12 NASB​

So Israel's sin brought about Gentile salvation. Let me ask you this: What else did Israel's hardening bring about? It brought about the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which brought to an end the Old Covenant mode of existence and brought in the full consummation of the New Covenant. Judgment had to come on Israel because of her sin.

I follow much of what you are saying, but I am still unclear of your position. Would you tell me your understanding of Matthew 23:39 please?