• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

"Replacement Theology" is a Strawman Argument

  • Thread starter GratiaCorpusChristi
  • Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.

But the term simply doesn't make sense.

"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this. Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.

But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.

Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.
 

HisdaughterJen

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2007
16,026
446
this side of eternity
✟18,732.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.

But the term simply doesn't make sense.

"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this. Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.

But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.

Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.
Interesting, but not quite understanding. Can you give an example please?

It is my understanding that those who believe in "replacement theology" think that since Israel rejected Christ, then God has essentially disowned Israel and replaced it with the church in His promises and prophecy. So whenever it says "Israel" in the Bible, they read it as though it says, "the church".
I believe that the reason they did this was because Israel wasn't a nation and there are so many end time prophecies that include Israel so in order to understand those prophecies, they substituted "the church". But now that Israel is back, substituting "the church" was a mistake.
 
Upvote 0

HisdaughterJen

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2007
16,026
446
this side of eternity
✟18,732.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
free online book by Jewish Christian

Exploding the Israel Deception

by Steve Wohlberg

http://www.truthworthfinding.org/articles/etid/etid_main.htm

take a special look at the chapter THE SHOCKING PRINCIPLE OF TWO ISRAELS
Interesting theory and partially true.
Read Ezekiel chapter 36.
Then chapter 37 begins the process of what God said he'd do in 36.
Then chapter 38/39 describe again why He steps in and helps Israel.
Chapter 40+ is what happens in millenium.
Read Hosea 6:1-3
Read Zachariah chapters 11-14 which talks about Israel's return, why, how they mourn for the one they pierced, how God tests and refines them, the final battle before Jesus' physical return and what happens in millenium.
Revelation also describes what happens to Israel in the end before His physical return.
It's all about Israel...both "fleshly Israel" and "spiritual Israel".
 
Upvote 0

LamorakDesGalis

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2004
2,198
235
Dallas Texas
✟18,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.

Not all dispensationalists like to throw that term around. In my experiences on the internet, the term "Replacement theology" has functioned as a type of "Shibboleth" that distinguishes "our" view from "their" view. Its an effort on the part of some dispensationalists to draw a "line in the sand" on the distinction between Israel and the Church. Its a kind of emotional polarization rather than any helpful explanation or description.

But the term simply doesn't make sense.

"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this.

In scholarly circles, replacement theology refers to the belief that the promises of Israel have been transferred to the church. There are at least a couple of variations. Some historical premillennialists such as George Ladd hold to it, where the church inherits the millennial promises to Israel. There are also a number of theonomic postmillennialists who hold that in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem God transferred the blessings from Israel to the Church. Now in both these cases, its not the church which does the transfer, its God. A number of theonomists and postmils hold that Israel will one day turn en masse to Jesus as Savior. So "replacement theology" is a concept which is not anti-semitic.

However in popular circles the term "replacement theology" often serves as a thinly veiled accusation for antisemitism. If you've encountered the arguments I'm sure you know what I mean. Also some dispensationalists have used it "in-house" to accuse other dispensationalists who hold to a pretrib premil end-time view. So in reality the term is virtually useless these days, and its more an emotionally charged accusation than anything substantial.

Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.

But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.

Yes, it is true that covenant theologians don't make that assumption - but like the rest of humanity, covenant theologians do make certain assumptions. As is often the case, people see views different from their own through the lens of their own view. Dispensationalists who shout "replacement theology" quite often are the ones who have the most difficulty understanding any view different from their own.

Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.

Yes, this is the continuation view - that the Church (people of God) continues Israel (people of God). Its "continuation theology" and not "replacement theology."

What often gets lost in the discussion is the basic definitions: the church consists of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Israel consists of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. There is overlap between Israel and the Church are the believing Jews, such as Peter, Paul, John, etc.

So there is continuity and discontinuity. The believing Jews constitute a continuity with the remnant of Israel. The believing Gentiles, now co-heirs with believing Jews, constitute a discontinuity between the OT separation of Israel and Gentiles.

So we get some basic variations depending on what one emphasizes:
1) continuation,
2) expansion - where the OT promises were originally to Jews but now expanded to include Gentiles,
3) parenthesis, where the "prophetic clock" has stopped regarding God's dealing with Israel as a nation, so that the gospel might be preached,
4) replacement, where the church as a new entity has replaced Israel as the old entity for inheriting God's promises.


LDG
 
Upvote 0

ddub85

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2005
712
5
55
✟887.00
Faith
Christian
@ LDG

Quote:
Originally Posted by GratiaCorpusChristi
Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.

Yes, this is the continuation view - that the Church (people of God) continues Israel (people of God). Its "continuation theology" and not "replacement theology."
The problem with what you're saying is that you say Gentiles become Israel, and the Bible says no such thing. Also, Israel wasn't the church.
What often gets lost in the discussion is the basic definitions: the church consists of both believing Jews and believing Gentiles.
That's correct! There are believing GENTILES in the church. They DO NOT become Israel as CTers maintain.
Israel consists of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews.
You leave one important word out of this statement: ONLY. "Israel consists of believing and unbelieving Jews... ONLY."
There is overlap between Israel and the Church are the believing Jews, such as Peter, Paul, John, etc.
The overlap is always two groups, Jew and Gentile, merging together to make the church. The overlap is NEVER Gentiles becoming Jews as taught by CTers.
So there is continuity and discontinuity. The believing Jews constitute a continuity with the remnant of Israel. The believing Gentiles, now co-heirs with believing Jews, constitute a discontinuity between the OT separation of Israel and Gentiles.
A "co-heir" (fellowheir) receives what they've been allotted ONLY, not all promises given to Jews. Let's don't leave that important fact out.
So we get some basic variations depending on what one emphasizes:
1) continuation,
2) expansion - where the OT promises were originally to Jews but now expanded to include Gentiles,
3) parenthesis, where the "prophetic clock" has stopped regarding God's dealing with Israel as a nation, so that the gospel might be preached,
4) replacement, where the church as a new entity has replaced Israel as the old entity for inheriting God's promises.
I believe a couple of reasons that the "replacement theology" moniker may be appropriate is because your theory is replacing what Israel is according to the Bible (Jewish only), with a new Israel that (1) turns Gentiles into Jews, and (2) "replaces" Gentiles by eliminating us, which is a form of genocide.

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
ddub85,

I see that you chose not to read all the scripture on Spiritual Israel that I posted. But as the thread begins, the church is not a replacement for Israel but the continuity of Israel in that all believers from Israel to the gentiles belong in the true Israel, The one of the Spirit. The door swings both ways. Gentiles become part of God's chosen people who become part of the church as God chosen people.

You have only confirmed what I said that you have a belief set in your heart and no matter the truth before you, you will not relent to your harm.

Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

LamorakDesGalis

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2004
2,198
235
Dallas Texas
✟18,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The problem with what you're saying is that you say Gentiles become Israel, and the Bible says no such thing. Also, Israel wasn't the church.

ddub85,
Your response is just too confusing. I never said "Gentiles become Israel." So from the start you made a false assumption despite what I clearly said.


LDG
 
Upvote 0

LamorakDesGalis

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2004
2,198
235
Dallas Texas
✟18,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gentiles do become the chosen people which is what was said of Israel, they are a chosen people.

Is not this same description given of the nation Israel and the church in the old and new testament.? A chosen people.

Hismessenger,
Gentiles who believe Jesus as their Savior are a chosen people. But those Gentiles who do not believe are not described in Scripture as a chosen people. Otherwise, if all Gentiles are a chosen people, and Israel (all Jews) are a chosen people, then "chosen people" just means "all of humanity" - and then the term "chosen people" becomes essentially meaningless.

But there is also a distinction between Israel as a chosen people and the Church as a chosen people. God choose Israel as a nation, and so not every Jew has been saved. On the other hand God has chosen individuals - believers - who together make up the body of the church. All "living stones" in the Church are saved, in contrast to Israel, where not every Jew was (or is) saved.

Romans 9:21-27 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Called (believing) Jews as "vessels of mercy" are distinguished from those who are "vessels of wrath."

25 As He says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people,' And her who was not beloved, 'beloved.'" 26 "And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, 'you are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Paul applies Hosea's quote to believing Gentiles, not all Gentiles. Believing Gentiles are "vessels of mercy" just like believing Jews.

27 ¶ And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;

Paul distinguishes the remnant of Israel from all Israel - only the remnant will be saved, not all of Israel.
LDG
 
Upvote 0

ddub85

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2005
712
5
55
✟887.00
Faith
Christian
@ Hismessenger
ddub85,
I see that you chose not to read all the scripture on Spiritual Israel that I posted.
Oh no, I will definitely respond. It's just a lot of scripture, and I'd like to be thorough. But from what I've seen so far, none address the point of Gentiles being a part of Israel. But this isn't the proper thread for that, so I digress.
But as the thread begins, the church is not a replacement for Israel but the continuity of Israel in that all believers from Israel to the gentiles belong in the true Israel, The one of the Spirit. The door swings both ways. Gentiles become part of God's chosen people who become part of the church as God chosen people.
If that's the case, then where is the scripture which says so? I see absolutely NOTHING which says "gentiles belong in the true Israel", as you state. And the one Spirit isn't Israel, people make up Israel. Gentiles are chosen by God to be a part of the church, but not chosen to be Israel. Israel is a part of the church, but the church isn't Israel as you seem to be stating.
You have only confirmed what I said that you have a belief set in your heart and no matter the truth before you, you will not relent to your harm.
Here we have a case of you stating what you believe without biblical proof, and since I don't believe what you haven't proven, you say I'm set in my ways.

PROVE what you're saying by listing the scripture, and answering the concerns about your position. I think mainly this comes down to your contention that Gentiles become Israel. That hasn't been shown by anything in the Bible. Explain the elimination of Gentiles by God. That doesn't begin to make sense based on what the Bible says. You're making a quantum leap that can't be substantiated by the Bible.

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

ddub85

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2005
712
5
55
✟887.00
Faith
Christian
@ LDG
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
The problem with what you're saying is that you say Gentiles become Israel, and the Bible says no such thing. Also, Israel wasn't the church.
ddub85,
Your response is just too confusing. I never said "Gentiles become Israel." So from the start you made a false assumption despite what I clearly said.
I apologize if you're not saying Gentiles become Israel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.

LDG Quote: "Yes, this is the continuation view - that the Church (people of God) continues Israel (people of God)."

If the church you speak of includes Gentiles, then you're saying that these Gentiles become Israel. Is that true? If so, then you're saying that Gentiles, somewhere along the line, become Israel.

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

ddub85

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2005
712
5
55
✟887.00
Faith
Christian
@ Hismessenger
Gentiles do become the chosen people which is what was said of Israel, they are a chosen people.
Is not this same description given of the nation Israel and the church in the old and new testament.? A chosen people.
Chosen to be the church, or chosen to be Israel? I see the former in scripture, but nowhere is the latter written. You're saying something the Bible doesn't say.

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

ddub85

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2005
712
5
55
✟887.00
Faith
Christian
Hismessenger,
Gentiles who believe Jesus as their Savior are a chosen people. But those Gentiles who do not believe are not described in Scripture as a chosen people. Otherwise, if all Gentiles are a chosen people, and Israel (all Jews) are a chosen people, then "chosen people" just means "all of humanity" - and then the term "chosen people" becomes essentially meaningless.

But there is also a distinction between Israel as a chosen people and the Church as a chosen people. God choose Israel as a nation, and so not every Jew has been saved. On the other hand God has chosen individuals - believers - who together make up the body of the church. All "living stones" in the Church are saved, in contrast to Israel, where not every Jew was (or is) saved.

Romans 9:21-27 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Called (believing) Jews as "vessels of mercy" are distinguished from those who are "vessels of wrath."

25 As He says also in Hosea, "I will call those who were not My people, 'My people,' And her who was not beloved, 'beloved.'" 26 "And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, 'you are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God."

Paul applies Hosea's quote to believing Gentiles, not all Gentiles. Believing Gentiles are "vessels of mercy" just like believing Jews.

27 ¶ And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved;

Paul distinguishes the remnant of Israel from all Israel - only the remnant will be saved, not all of Israel.
LDG
LDG,
Do you believe that those Gentiles who are saved, who are God's people, are Israel?

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

LamorakDesGalis

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2004
2,198
235
Dallas Texas
✟18,598.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I apologize if you're not saying Gentiles become Israel. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement.

LDG Quote: "Yes, this is the continuation view - that the Church (people of God) continues Israel (people of God)."

If the church you speak of includes Gentiles, then you're saying that these Gentiles become Israel. Is that true? If so, then you're saying that Gentiles, somewhere along the line, become Israel.

The continuation view is not my view. My quote above was a restatement of what the OP said, that what CTers hold is a continuation view and not a replacement view.

I hold to a clear distinction between Israel and the church, as do all dispensationalists. Israel consists of believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. The church, a new entity in this present age, consists of believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

LDG,
Do you believe that those Gentiles who are saved, who are God's people, are Israel?

No. Saved Gentiles in this present age are not members of Israel; they are members of the church. Saved Gentiles in the OT were never members of Israel, and they were not the church.


LDG
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
ddub85

By your reasoning Israel is not Israel either if they become members of the church which they did. You say that the church cannot be Israel but yet israel can become part of the church. If It is one body, then all must belong to one covenant people. Do you believe that for the covenant was not given to Israel as you so aptly point out but to Abraham of which the church is also privy too. You keep harping about what the word doesn't say but when it says something that you don't agree with, you either disregard it or say that it isn't what the word is truely saying..

A few questions.

1 Is Israel a covenant people?


2 Were they not called a chosen people?


3 Are they not called the church in the wilderness?


4 Are there not passages in the new testament that describe the church in the same terms as the nation Israel?


If there are, what conclusion would a child draw from those passages if shown them all in relationship to this topic?


Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

Hismessenger

Senior Member
Nov 29, 2006
2,886
72
77
Augusta Ga
✟25,933.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Each dispensation has the same social contract with God, obey my voice. God didn't change to accommadate man. Man must change/ repent to accommadate God. God has shown many different dispensations but all aimed at the same purpose. Man's redemption by God's love.


Hismessenger
 
Upvote 0

Jerrysch

Senior Veteran
Apr 13, 2005
3,714
23
✟4,104.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I often hear the term "replacement theology" thrown about whenever dispensationalists (and dispensational messianics) want to demonize covenant theology.

But the term simply doesn't make sense.

"Replacement theology" assumes, it is said, that the church replaced Israel. Show me anyone who actually believes this. Covenant theologians don't because covenant theologians see continuity between the people of God. To assume that covenant theologians think that the church placed Israel, you have to assume a radical discontinuity between Israel and the church- that is, you assign dispensationalist assumptions upon a group of Christians who make no assumptions.

But covenant theologians don't make that assumption.

Covenant theologians see one people of God throughout all of human history. The church, in covenant theology, cannot replace Israel because there is no difference between believers in ethnic Israel and believers in the church.


And there in lies the error, the church and Israel are distinct peoples of God. As an object example what is the CT understanding of the meaning of Ez 45:1-9? What does it mean (in general)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.