Replacement Theology Found in Scripture?

LinkH · Oct 8, 2012

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

(NKJV)
Emphasis mine.

Tangible · Oct 8, 2012

So are you saying that this somehow doesn't support the doctrine that Israel and the Church are one in Christ? 'Cuz it seems pretty straightforward to me.

Frogster · Oct 8, 2012

The spiritual body of Christ, did not replace a three dimensional land mass.

No, God did not forget Jewish people, or Italians, or Russians either.

All are welcome into the body of Christ, that would be the church.

It says his glory is through the church, forever, throughout all generations. Not a land mass, or a certain race, but the church, forever...

NASB
Eph 3:21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

The one new man, that came after Jewish law abolishment. Jewish people are welcome into the body of Christ, just like all the other jews who have been saved for 20 centuries now, like Paul, in the body, he was Jewish..

Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Frogster · Oct 8, 2012

The body of Christ, has nothing to do with the commonwealth of Israel, that of Eph 2:12, we are not in the commonwealth, that is an incorrect view that some teach. Scripture describes our household, and it is a spiritual building, it is not the commonwealth, it has nothing to do with land, race, or time and space, here is the definition of our new home, being built then and now. We just have to follow the flow of the text, it's all very clear.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Frogster · Oct 8, 2012

LinkH said:
Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

(NKJV)
Emphasis mine.

The Jews are also called branches, not the tree..

Lysimachus · Oct 8, 2012

Dispensationalism tends to lead people to believe that the Law of God (The Ten Commandments) is only for the Jews, not the Gentiles.

But if one believes that Israel is realized in the Church, and that we are now Spiritual Israel, then that means we Gentiles have an obligation to the Law of God.

Jipsah · Oct 9, 2012

Lysimachus said:
But if one believes that Israel is realized in the Church, and that we are now Spiritual Israel, then that means we Gentiles have an obligation to the Law of God.

Or at least bits of it, right?

razeontherock · Oct 9, 2012

Back to the OP: anti-semitism is not a Scriptural precept

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 9, 2012

Replacement Theology Found in Scripture?

How about a covenantle change/replacement of Priesthoods, as spoken of in Hebrews 7

Rotherham) Hebrews 7:12 For seeing there is to be a change of the priesthood, of necessity of law also, a change cometh.
13 For, he as to whom these things are said, with a different tribe, hath taken partnership, from which, no one, hath given attendance at the altar;
14 For it is very evident that out of Judah hath sprung our Lord,--respecting which tribe, concerning priests, nothing did Moses speak

Kindgdom Bible Studies Royal Priesthood Part 24

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.

The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek. And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection.

Frogster · Oct 9, 2012

razeontherock said:
Back to the OP: anti-semitism is not a Scriptural precept

but in all fairness, it's demegoguery to label some as that, not that u r, just saying. Actually it is the non divisive "replacement people" who want to welcome jewish people into the body of Christ, where there is no jew or greek, where race, nationality, Judaism, land masses don't matter, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, eph 4.

it's all about the gospel that brought unity, one body, and promise.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Frogster · Oct 9, 2012

Jewish people are welcome. We are not a bout a tiny land masss in time and space, nor judaism.

1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodyJews or Greeks, slaves or freeand all were made to drink of one Spirit.

LinkH · Oct 9, 2012

Frogster said:
but in all fairness, it's demegoguery to label some as that, not that u r, just saying. Actually it is the non divisive "replacement people" who want to welcome jewish people into the body of Christ, where there is no jew or greek, where race, nationality, Judaism, land masses don't matter, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, eph 4.

it's all about the gospel that brought unity, one body, and promise.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

The Christians who believe God was not tricking people with allegory when He made all those promises to Israel also want Jews to become a part of the body of the Messiah.

And according to the Bible, the land mass is important. So is the people-group.

Let's continue looking at Romans 11.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Here, "Israel" refers to the people-group, the ethnic descendants of Abraham. The part of them who are blinded are not coming in-- coming to the promises of God. But they are still referred to as Israel.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

"Jacob" or "Israel" in this passage is not the church. It is the ethnic group that are 'enemies' of the believing readers. Early on, many of the heaviest persecutors of Christians were Jews. But notice, they are beloved for the sakes of the fathers. Notice also that God has a plan for the national salvation of Israel. Paul alludes to it earlier in the chapter when he asks what shall the receiving of them be, but life form the dead?

So while they are not part of the church, they are still beloved for the sakes of the patriarchs. This destroys some of the beliefs of those who hold to so-called 'replacement theology.' Israel clearly still has a place in God's heart-- not just the church, but the people-group.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The gifts and calling of God to Israel as a nation is irrevocable. We shouldn't try to revoke it by allegoricalizing the promises away (and calling it 'spiritualizing'.)

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Paul treats the promises made to Israel as real promises made to Israel. We are in a window of time when God opens up entry into the household of faith to all nations, as a part of His plan to make ready a bride for His Son. But His promises to Israel are not null and void. This entire passage proves that His promises to Israel were not just a big trick to fool the Jews and make them think they were special, but which were really a big allegory solely about the church. No we see here 'you' and 'these'-- two groups. ''You" are believers here. "These" are the nation of Israel, or rather those who are unbelievers in Israel who are not the target audience. Through the nation of Israel's disobedience, we have obtained mercy. Through the mercy shown us, they will obtain mercy.

Part of God's plan with the church was to include Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Israel worshipped idols, provoking God to jealousy. So God proclaimed, as Paul quotes from the Law in Romans 10, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish people, I will anger you.

God is not provoking the church to jealousy and anger in this passage. He is provoking the nation of Israel, which has, for the most part, rejected the Messiah.

Nova Scotian Boy · Oct 9, 2012

The term Replacement Theology is used by people who don't understand Covenant Theology.
The Church does not replace Israel, the Church has always been Israel.

Covenant Theology is Not Replacement Theology

September 14, 2008

R. Scott Clark

Recently I had a question asking whether covenant theology is so-called replacement theology. Those dispensational critics of Reformed covenant theology who accuse it of teaching that the New Covenant church has replaced Israel do not understand historic Reformed covenant theology. They are imputing to Reformed theology a way of thinking about redemptive history that has more in common with dispensationalism than it does with Reformed theology.

First, the very category of replacement is foreign to Reformed theology because it assumes a dispensational, Israeleo-centric way of thinking. It assumes that the temporary, national people was, in fact, intended to be the permanent arrangement. Such a way of thinking is contrary to the promise in Gen. 3:15. The promise was that there would be a Savior. The national people was only a means to that end, not an end in itself. According to Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22, in Christ the dividing wall has been destroyed. It cannot be rebuilt. The two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) have been made one in Christ. Among those who are united to Christ by grace alone, through faith alone, there is no Jew nor Gentile (Rom. 10:12; Gal. 3:28; Col. 3:11).

At least some forms of dispensationalism have suggested that God intended the national covenant with Israel to be permanent. According to Reformed theology, the Mosaic covenant was never intended to be permanent. According to Galatians 3 (and chapter 4), the Mosaic covenant was a codicil to the Abrahamic covenant. A codicil is added to an existing document. It doesnt replace the existing document. Dispensationalism reverses things. It makes the Abrahamic covenant a codicil to the Mosaic. Hebrews 3 says that Moses was a worker in Jesus house. Dispensationalism makes Jesus a worker in Moses house.

Second, with respect to salvation, Reformed covenant theology does not juxtapose Israel and the church. For Reformed theology, the church has always been the Israel of God and the Israel of God has always been the church. Reformed covenant theology distinguishes the old and new covenants (2 Cor. 3; Heb. 7-10). It recognizes that the church was temporarily administered through a typological, national people, but the church has existed since Adam, Noah, and Abraham; and it existed under Moses and David; and it exists under Christ.

Third, the church has always been one, under various administrations, under types, shadows, and now under the reality in Christ, because the object of faith has always been one. Jesus the Messiah was the object of faith of the typological church (Heb. 11; Luke 24; 2 Cor. 3), and he remains the object of faith.
Fourth, despite the abrogation of the national covenant by the obedience, death, and resurrection of Christ (Col. 2:14), the NT church has not replaced the Jews. Paul says that God grafted the Gentiles into the people of God. Grafting is not replacement, it is addition.

It has been widely held by Reformed theologians that there will be a great conversion of Jews. Some call this anti-semitism. This isnt anti-semitism, it is Christianity. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6). The alternative to Jesus exclusivist claim is universalism, which is nothing less than an assault on the person and finished work of Christ. Other Reformed writers understand the promises in Rom. 11 to refer only to the salvation of all the elect (Rom. 2:28) rather than to a future conversion of Jews. In any event, Reformed theology is not anti-semitic. We have always hoped and prayed for the salvation, in Christ, sola gratia et sola fide, of all of Gods elect, Jew and Gentile alike.

KimberlyAA · Oct 9, 2012

Speaking to Gentile Christians, Paul warns them not to feel superior because some Jews were rejected. Abraham's faith is like the root of a productive tree, and the Jewish people are the tree's natural branches. Because of faithlessness, some of the Jews have been broken off, and Gentile believers, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. Both the Jews and Gentiles share the tree's nourishment based on faith in God; neither can rest on heritage or culture for salvation.

"Continue to trust in His kindness" refers to steadfast perseverance in faith. Steadfastness is the proof of the reality of faith and a by-product of salvation, not a means to it.

razeontherock · Oct 9, 2012

I'm snipping out a small portion, to clarify what I feel is a very important point:

LinkH said:
"Jacob" or "Israel" in this passage is not the church. It is the ethnic group that are 'enemies' of the believing readers.

So while they are not part of the church, they are still beloved for the sakes of the patriarchs. This destroys some of the beliefs of those who hold to so-called 'replacement theology.' Israel clearly still has a place in God's heart-- not just the church, but the people-group.

The gifts and calling of God to Israel as a nation is irrevocable.

Part of God's plan with the church was to include Gentiles to make Israel jealous.

God is not provoking the church to jealousy and anger in this passage. He is provoking the nation of Israel, which has, for the most part, rejected the Messiah.

This is perfectly consistent with what I said above, that anti-semitism isn't a Scriptural precept. It's a poison that got into the Church.

Lysimachus · Oct 9, 2012

Replacement Theology in essence is a coined idea in the minds of Dispensationalists toward those who believe Israel is realized in the Church.

In other words, in their minds, this his how they view us: "Since they believe that the Church has replaced the Israel, this means they believe in "replacement theology", because they do not believe that Israel has any more role or function in God's end-time prophecies, and are basically anti-semetic"

This is how those who charge us of subscribing to "Replacement Theology" look at it. With all due respect, I believe it is a warped pear of lenses they are looking through.

The problem is, they fail to grasp the bigger picture of what is really transpiring here.

Israel has not been replaced by the Church. The House of Israel, which is the Vineyard, was taken away from the Jewish Nation, and GIVEN (not replaced) to the Church. Israel has always been spiritual, even in the Old Testament.

The Jewish Geopolitical Nation = the "Old Husbandmen" or "vinedressers" for the "House of Israel"--the "Vineyard".

According to Matthew 21:43, the Kingdom of God (Israel) was taken FROM them (Jewish Nation) and GIVEN (not replaced) to a nation (the gentiles/church) bringing forth the fruits thereof.

See Isaiah 5:1-9 (especially verse 7) and Isaiah 61:1-11 (especially vss. 4 & 5).

As we can see, the prophecy in Isaiah 61:1-11 foretells of a day when strangers would stand up and feed the flock, and they would be the "husbandmen" or "vinedressers" of the Vineyard (the House of Israel). They would come and plow the fields, and tend the garden.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Christ in Matthew 21:33-43 was clearly alluding to Isaiah 5:1-8 and 61:1-11.

The Christian Church = the "New Husbandmen" or vinedressers for the "House of Israel"--the "vineyard".

This Church comprises of Jews and Gentiles alike---men from every nation under heaven which God has called.

We are saved ONLY "in Christ" (Romans 3:24). And the "Church" is the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph. 4:12).

The Nation of Ancient Israel, when they were following God, were considered "the church in the wilderness" (Acts 7:37-39)

God's "congregation".

God WILL have a "remnant" of literal ethnic Jews according to Romans 11. But every Jew that is saved will be considered in God's eyes as being "grafted into the parent stock"--that is, ultimately, Jesus Christ. No Jew will be saved by being connected to a separate tree. It's the same tree. God does not have two brides, He has one. It is by the filling up of the Gentiles into the House of Israel (the vineyard) that will constitute the "all Israel" that shall be "saved".

God is not a polygamist. There is only ONE bride, and there is only ONE TREE, and that is Himself, for which the Church represents His body.

Thus we see that Israel was not replaced, nor can ever be replaced. Only those Whom God has given the keys to the House can be replaced. The keys can be taken away from them, and given to another housekeeper. The keys were definitely taken away from the Jewish Nation.

Jews will only be saved as individuals, but only after they accept Christ as their personal Saviour. No Jew that is saved will have been saved independently from the body of Christ, as a separate "entity" outside of the Church.

Frogster · Oct 9, 2012

LinkH said:
The Christians who believe God was not tricking people with allegory when He made all those promises to Israel also want Jews to become a part of the body of the Messiah.

And according to the Bible, the land mass is important. So is the people-group.

Let's continue looking at Romans 11.

Here, "Israel" refers to the people-group, the ethnic descendants of Abraham. The part of them who are blinded are not coming in-- coming to the promises of God. But they are still referred to as Israel.

"Jacob" or "Israel" in this passage is not the church. It is the ethnic group that are 'enemies' of the believing readers. Early on, many of the heaviest persecutors of Christians were Jews. But notice, they are beloved for the sakes of the fathers. Notice also that God has a plan for the national salvation of Israel. Paul alludes to it earlier in the chapter when he asks what shall the receiving of them be, but life form the dead?

So while they are not part of the church, they are still beloved for the sakes of the patriarchs. This destroys some of the beliefs of those who hold to so-called 'replacement theology.' Israel clearly still has a place in God's heart-- not just the church, but the people-group.

The gifts and calling of God to Israel as a nation is irrevocable. We shouldn't try to revoke it by allegoricalizing the promises away (and calling it 'spiritualizing'.)

Paul treats the promises made to Israel as real promises made to Israel. We are in a window of time when God opens up entry into the household of faith to all nations, as a part of His plan to make ready a bride for His Son. But His promises to Israel are not null and void. This entire passage proves that His promises to Israel were not just a big trick to fool the Jews and make them think they were special, but which were really a big allegory solely about the church. No we see here 'you' and 'these'-- two groups. ''You" are believers here. "These" are the nation of Israel, or rather those who are unbelievers in Israel who are not the target audience. Through the nation of Israel's disobedience, we have obtained mercy. Through the mercy shown us, they will obtain mercy.

Part of God's plan with the church was to include Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Israel worshipped idols, provoking God to jealousy. So God proclaimed, as Paul quotes from the Law in Romans 10, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish people, I will anger you.

God is not provoking the church to jealousy and anger in this passage. He is provoking the nation of Israel, which has, for the most part, rejected the Messiah.

Your problem is that you are seeing them accorrding to the flesh, I mean, sure, paul used the israel word, but lets remember...

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Now, when Jews come in, like how Paul and others did, they must realize that everywhere Kaul uses Abeaham, like in Rom 9, it takes down ethnocentricity, or law, or Judaism, nationalism, circumcision, or racisim, unless you can prove otherwise.

faith and grace, and they have to come in like all the other jews for 20 centuries now.

look here, to be in Abe they must walk PRE CIRCUMCISION, they can't be heirs by judaism!

Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Frogster · Oct 9, 2012

LinkH said:
The Christians who believe God was not tricking people with allegory when He made all those promises to Israel also want Jews to become a part of the body of the Messiah.

And according to the Bible, the land mass is important. So is the people-group.

Let's continue looking at Romans 11.

Here, "Israel" refers to the people-group, the ethnic descendants of Abraham. The part of them who are blinded are not coming in-- coming to the promises of God. But they are still referred to as Israel.

"Jacob" or "Israel" in this passage is not the church. It is the ethnic group that are 'enemies' of the believing readers. Early on, many of the heaviest persecutors of Christians were Jews. But notice, they are beloved for the sakes of the fathers. Notice also that God has a plan for the national salvation of Israel. Paul alludes to it earlier in the chapter when he asks what shall the receiving of them be, but life form the dead?

So while they are not part of the church, they are still beloved for the sakes of the patriarchs. This destroys some of the beliefs of those who hold to so-called 'replacement theology.' Israel clearly still has a place in God's heart-- not just the church, but the people-group.

The gifts and calling of God to Israel as a nation is irrevocable. We shouldn't try to revoke it by allegoricalizing the promises away (and calling it 'spiritualizing'.)

Paul treats the promises made to Israel as real promises made to Israel. We are in a window of time when God opens up entry into the household of faith to all nations, as a part of His plan to make ready a bride for His Son. But His promises to Israel are not null and void. This entire passage proves that His promises to Israel were not just a big trick to fool the Jews and make them think they were special, but which were really a big allegory solely about the church. No we see here 'you' and 'these'-- two groups. ''You" are believers here. "These" are the nation of Israel, or rather those who are unbelievers in Israel who are not the target audience. Through the nation of Israel's disobedience, we have obtained mercy. Through the mercy shown us, they will obtain mercy.

Part of God's plan with the church was to include Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Israel worshipped idols, provoking God to jealousy. So God proclaimed, as Paul quotes from the Law in Romans 10, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish people, I will anger you.

God is not provoking the church to jealousy and anger in this passage. He is provoking the nation of Israel, which has, for the most part, rejected the Messiah.

heirs by promise, just like the gentiles, those of Rom 9:30.

Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspringnot only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Clare73 · Oct 9, 2012

LinkH said:
Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

(NKJV)
Emphasis mine.

It's not replacement theology, it's fulfillment theology.

God's people are fulfilled in the Church of believing Jews and believing Gentiles.
All are now on the same ground and same footing--salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

In the faith,
Clare

Frogster · Oct 9, 2012

Once a jew is saved, it is>>>>>>>>>>>

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Promise to be an heir of Abraham.

29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise

Replacement Theology Found in Scripture?

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