Replacement/Continuation Theology

[muffler dragon]

To All My Loved Ones on this forum:

I wanted to come to you this morning to ask for your understanding of some Scripture that has been presented to me lately.

The thread in question is:

http://www.christianforums.com/t692176

The title of this thread is New Covenant. I've run into one gentleman who stated a belief in replacement theology, but had never even heard the term before. I showed him how his verbiage was advocating that very thing. As we continued on, he (and another woman) are trying to appease the situation by saying it's more of a continuation than a replacement. Some of us on the thread consider this nothing more than semantics. This brings me to the jist of my thread here.

One Scripture in particular has stood out in this whole discussion and it was brought up by the first poster in question. It is Hebrews 7:12. I will post the entire chapter for context:

Hebrews 7 (NASB)
Melchizedek's Priesthood Like Christ's

1 For this (1) Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the (2) Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.
3 Without father, without mother, (3) without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like (4) the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
4 Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the (5) patriarch, (6) gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.
5 And those indeed of (7) the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham.
6 But the one (8) whose genealogy is not traced from them (9) collected a tenth from Abraham and (10) blessed the one who (11) had the promises.
7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.
8 In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, (12) of whom it is witnessed that he lives on.
9 And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,
10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
11 (13) Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it (14) the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise (15) according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
13 For (16) the one concerning whom (17) these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord was (18) descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek,
16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of (19) physical requirement, but according to the power of (20) an indestructible life.
17 For it is attested of Him,
"(21) YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment (22) because of its weakness and uselessness
19 (for (23) the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better (24) hope, through which we (25) draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath
21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"(26) THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND (27) WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST (28) FOREVER'");
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the (29) guarantee of (30) a better covenant.
23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues (31) forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to (32) save forever those who (33) draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to (34) make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a (35) high priest, (36) holy, (37) innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and (38) exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to (39) offer up sacrifices, (40) first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did (41) once for all when He (42) offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests (43) who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints (44) a Son, (45) made perfect forever.

I come to you for a deeper understanding of this passage in general as well as specifically about the one highlighted verse. I have to admit that until coming here, my indoctrination had been exactly what I am hearing. However, now it doesn't feel right and my spirit is troubled. Therefore, I am asking for any and all assistance for a clearer understanding for myself. I have no intention of carrying on any further with the two posters stated earlier. Cyclical reasoning does little for me. I do invite you to partake if you feel so moved.

I look forward to seeing what you have to say.
Thank you very much,

Nathan

 

[Sephania]

I would also question which former mitzvah was set aside. ( verse 18)

 

[Sephania]

It is too far gone now, so many pages, so much that is wrong there I wouldn't know where to begin. For those arguing that they are the decendants of Abraham and entitled to his promises as well as the "Real Israel" are those that need to feel special in HaShem's eyes. They have been convinced by their denominations and have convinced themselves that they have replaced Israel. The only thing that will unconvince them is when that day comes and they find out they were wrong. What they dont' realize is how they diminish the G-d they proclaim to love by saying this, which in turn takes his promises and tosses them to the wind by saying he changed his mind about always loving us and never leaving us totally. This is the plan of HaSatan for he can't elevate himself above the most High without lowering him first. This is a bad spirit that resides in the churches and needs to be prayed against.

 

[muffler dragon]

I completely understand where you are coming from.

I would like to ask if there is any insight you can give me regarding the Scripture above. I don't want to accept the way that it was taught to me when growing up.

Thanks,

Nathan

 

[Henaynei]

comparing scripture with scripture - the priesthood will not be changed until Messiah returns (or even after that) - scripture states that not "one yud or vowel" will change in the Law until both earth and heaven pass away

 

[simchat_torah]

The priesthood will continue through the Millenial Kingdom as well, sacrafices will be made in Jerusalem, Sukkot will be observed, etc.

So we know that the priesthood will be in place until at least then.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Sephania]

First you need to convince them that Y'shua did not "do away" with the law. From there on in it's all downhill. not.

Seriously, the law has not changed, however some "substitutions" of the real thing have been made.

IN the Torah Moshe was the "lawgiver" or the one who gave the people the laws of the L-RD then Y'shua came and made a full understanding of his laws in the Brit Chadasha.

In the Torah the laws were written down on stone and parchement now Y'shua has sent the Ruach HaKodesh who leads us in the following of it by writing it on our hearts.

In the Torah there was a Priesthood set up starting with Aaron and through his sons only. Now we have a priest after Mechesidek , a righteous one, one who never defiled himself with other gods, the one and only one that stand between us and the FAther.

In Torah sacrifices for sin offerings were made, Y'shua made that sacrifice once and for all, but his blood continues to cover for anyone that accepts who he is and what he did to this day.


Some would argue that the new covenant is still future from Jeremiah's prophecy. But the church has taken this to theirselves, and the only way they can is to call themselves the New Israel or the "continuation", either way you slice it they are thieves.

There really are too many words skipped over in this sentance:

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,

It doesn't say "with Israel" but instead the "House of" Israel, this is a "royal" house above all nations, a house that already belonged to the L-RD.

"I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people"





"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:37-39

This is already starting, as witnessed by those of this forum.



Until that day, Y'shua will not return to establish the new covenant. The new covenant cannot be made until the parties (House of Israel and Judah) are willing to make it.

34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. ​

This is when the new covenant can be fully enacted, when Y'shua makes "ALL THINGS NEW" , we are in the prep new covenant phase right now if you will.


For it is written:
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.Jer.31:35-36


Thankfully the moon is still in its place and the sun and stars as well.

 

[Sephania]

Also remember that there was a cup of the new covenant and Y'shua said he wouldn't drink of it until the new kingdom, he has to drink of this to "finalize" this covenant and that is when he will make all things new.

 

[Henaynei]

for my money the New Covenant has not yet taken place - adn the Torah is not written on our hearts, yet.... for every man still has need to be taught the Torah and sin still abounds - and Jerusalem is still trodden down by the gentiles (read Arabs, Christians and Armenins (sp? - in a hurry)) - the need for the church to believe, even messianics to believe the the new convenat has come is very strong - but the current facts just don't line up with the scriptural description.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hello!! (First time poster here, be gentle)

Being one of the 'fellers' that spent a lot of time IN that particular tread, I would like to ask if any one (while reviewing the thread) noticed anything where i seemed to be "...too far gone now, so many pages, so much that is wrong there"

I do not hold to ANY form of replacement theology, i believe the New Covenant was made with (and only with) Israel,, etc. etc.. but i'm a little weak in the "Old Testament" department and have been known to "speak without researching".


Any and all comments are welcome.

 

[muffler dragon]

Hello!! (First time poster here, be gentle)

Being one of the 'fellers' that spent a lot of time IN that particular tread, I would like to ask if any one (while reviewing the thread) noticed anything where i seemed to be "...too far gone now, so many pages, so much that is wrong there"

I do not hold to ANY form of replacement theology, i believe the New Covenant was made with (and only with) Israel,, etc. etc.. but i'm a little weak in the "Old Testament" department and have been known to "speak without researching".


Any and all comments are welcome.

Paul,

You should be made aware that I did not bring up this post in regards to anything either you or Toms has stated. My contention lies strictly with the people whom I question.

Others may peer into your writings and see such, but I don't anticipate it in your direction in general. Just my observation.

m.d.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Paul,

You should be made aware that I did not bring up this post in regards to anything either you or Toms has stated. My contention lies strictly with the people whom I question.

Others may peer into your writings and see such, but I don't anticipate it in your direction in general. Just my observation.

m.d.

I know.

I was just looking for MORE knowledge, maybe a better way to explain something something...

 

[@@Paul@@]

Also remember that there was a cup of the new covenant and Y'shua said he wouldn't drink of it until the new kingdom, he has to drink of this to "finalize" this covenant and that is when he will make all things new.

Hi Zayit...

Could you elaborate on this? Your previous post was very good and has got me thinking (watch out)....

Paul.

 

[visionary]

There comes a time when we must move closer to God and become the spiritual kings and priests that God would have us be in these last days of earth’s history. In order to do this we must understand one of the most important tasks that Yeshua is performing in the heavenly sanctuary for us today.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Remember all things point to the work of our Redeemer in Heaven as our High Priest and King.

1 Peter 2 :1-9 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good. 4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," 8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Luke 17:21 For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

In Temple times, the priesthood sounded three trumpet blasts every morning to announce the opening of the Temple gates. So too, it is believed, that the first trumpet blasts of the Feast of Trumpets announce the opening of the gates of Heaven. This is traditional Feast of Trumpets image is fully employed in

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

After the atonement services are over on the Day of Atonement, there is a consecration service for the new ministers of God.

Lev 16 :32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: 33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. 34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year.

Yeshua's covenant with the believers does play a role in helping us have a better understanding of the His heavenly ministry and what is soon to come to pass. Part of the fulfillment of the fall feasts is in the Day of Atonement when the Lord will accomplish all that the prophectic symbolism found within. Interesting that new members to the priesthood are consecrated at that time.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Thanks visionary... I’m still a little confused on how that pertains to the New Covenant...

Assuming the Day of Atonement will be fulfilled at the Second Advent... Are you saying that is when the new (everlasting) covenant will be made with Israel at the 'consecration service'?

Jer 31:33-36 KJV
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.​

So, when the New Covenant is put in place, i see a few things which are supposed to happen... G-d will put His law in their (Israel's?) inward parts, He will be their G-d and Israel His people AND Everyone on the earth will have knowledge of G-d.

1. Is the reference to "being their G-d, Israel His people" referring to 'Ammi' condition in the book of Hosea?

2. It appears, when the new covenant is put in place, every person on the earth will have knowledge of G-d (from verse 34 above). True?

Thanks for the help.
Paul.

 

[visionary]

Thanks visionary... I’m still a little confused on how that pertains to the New Covenant...

Assuming the Day of Atonement will be fulfilled at the Second Advent... Are you saying that is when the new (everlasting) covenant will be made with Israel at the 'consecration service'?

Jer 31:33-36 KJV
(33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.​

So, when the New Covenant is put in place, i see a few things which are supposed to happen... G-d will put His law in their (Israel's?) inward parts, He will be their G-d and Israel His people AND Everyone on the earth will have knowledge of G-d.

1. Is the reference to "being their G-d, Israel His people" referring to 'Ammi' condition in the book of Hosea?

2. It appears, when the new covenant is put in place, every person on the earth will have knowledge of G-d (from verse 34 above). True?

Thanks for the help.
Paul.

Just as the Lord gathered His people out of Egypt and brought them out into the wilderness where He fed them and brought them to Mount Sinai for the covenant with them.

Sukkot or Feast of Tabernacles is the festival of fellowship and union with God, a kind of "God with us" understanding. As was illustrated in the forty years in the wilderness, with God dwelling with his people in the tabernacle and latter in the temple at Jerusalem, it is the ultimate goal of God to be with us. In the great ingathering at the end of time, where the believers are raptured as the wife of the Lamb. It is forever that God wishes to have this union with man.

So also in the last days the Lord will again bring His people out of spiritual Egypt and Babylon into the wilderness to fed them and bring them spiritually to Mount Sion, the great ingathering of believers.

He will make the covenant with His people that He gathered. Now the two trumpets of silver can be paralleled to the two witnesses who are calling people to the last call of redemption. The two witness come during the feasts of trumpets. The two witnesses will call for the ingathering of the believers and for the journeying that will need to be done spiritually to be in the place in the wilderness, where God can again speak to us as it was at Mount Sinai.

Numbers 10:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

He called this last covenant the Everlasting Covenant, the marriage of the Lamb, and by it He talks of being united with His people for ever.

Psalm 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

Isaiah 55;3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Hebrews 13;20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Now understand that all that I say is what I believe to be true concerning the Fall Feasts, the Everlasting Covenant, and Yeshua and the Torah at this time. We are all growing in knowledge and in truth. As we share, we grow, as we grow deeper in the Word, we share. May we all be blessed with the Holy Spirit and the deeper truth found in the Word.