Repentance

[Ben_Hur]

I hear Christians talking about being "granted" repentance. What is this about? We must be "granted" repentance? That almost doesn't make sense. And if we are not granted repentance, is that the explanation for continued sinning? Then, does it follow that if we continue sinning, that we must not have been granted repentance, and therefore, must not be saved?

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

Here are some verses that talk about it.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.​

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.​

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

I think the granting includes God's chastening and godly sorrow.

Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented ... Jeremiah 31:18,19​

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation ... 2 Corinthians 7:10

 

[Ben_Hur]

When I read the first two verses, I think, we've already been granted repentance, or the privilage to salvation through repentance.

But when I read the 2 Tim verse, I think, it is more dynamic than that. He picks and chooses who gets repentance, or the ability to repent to the point of salvation.

The last verse tells me what repentance is, or at least part of it, which is godly sorrow.

So, I'm still confused. Thanks for trying.

 

[duster1az]

When I read the first two verses, I think, we've already been granted repentance, or the privilage to salvation through repentance.

But when I read the 2 Tim verse, I think, it is more dynamic than that. He picks and chooses who gets repentance, or the ability to repent to the point of salvation.

The last verse tells me what repentance is, or at least part of it, which is godly sorrow.

So, I'm still confused. Thanks for trying.

Contrary to the impression most hold, repentance is not sorrow or the aching of the heart respecting sin or wrong, but is a change of mind. Although there is nothing to keep the change of mind from being accompanied by grief, the sorrow itself is not repentance.

Repentance is a part of believing unto salvation, but only because of the change of mind that is involved when turning from every other confidence to trust in Christ. So, without the convicting work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) which is gracious in nature, none would have the change of mind neccessary for salvation.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[frumanchu]

When I read the first two verses, I think, we've already been granted repentance, or the privilage to salvation through repentance.

But when I read the 2 Tim verse, I think, it is more dynamic than that. He picks and chooses who gets repentance, or the ability to repent to the point of salvation.

The last verse tells me what repentance is, or at least part of it, which is godly sorrow.

So, I'm still confused. Thanks for trying.

The word repentance means literally to change one's mind or turn away from something. It can also be used to express sorrow (as in the case of God repenting of having made man in Genesis). When we repent, we are turning from our sin and toward Christ. Our decision to do so stems from our desire to do so. By nature, we do not desire to do so. We have no real remorse for our sin by nature. Without God's regenerating grace, we would never repent of our sin because we would have no desire to. In breathing spiritual life into us by the power of the Holy Spirit and exposing our sinfulness (and thus, the need for a Savior) by the power of the Word, God is 'granting' us repentance.

 

[Sunbeam]

I hear Christians talking about being "granted" repentance. What is this about? We must be "granted" repentance? That almost doesn't make sense. And if we are not granted repentance, is that the explanation for continued sinning? Then, does it follow that if we continue sinning, that we must not have been granted repentance, and therefore, must not be saved?

I think it is just a more delicate way of saying that they have repented and also felt the matter was dealt with by God to their content. I can see what you are saying though, and probably at some time it has been taken what I consider to be the wrong way.

 

[Ben_Hur]

I know that repentance means a "change of mind." So, those verses are saying God granted them the ability to change their mind or path and turn to Him. I suspect this is where the Calvinism lecture would start, eh?

Just for the record, I had absolutely NO intension of starting a calvanism discussion. So if there are alternate views, I'd like to hear them.

 

[Wrigley]

Just for the record, I had absolutely NO intension of starting a calvanism discussion. So if there are alternate views, I'd like to hear them.

There are others?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Not all "repentance" is about sin. All the word means is to change one's mind or heart about something. In Acts Peter told the Jews they had rejected Jesus. He then told them to repent (or change their heart and mind) about Jesus and believe.


Act 2:36-38
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice these verses do not say anything about sin. Peter was talking about their rejection of Jesus. Repentance in this case was to be baptized in the name of the one they rejected. They had to change their minds about the rejecting of the one the God made Lord and Christ.

 

[Ben johnson]

Just for the record, I had absolutely NO intention of starting a calvanism discussion.

But that's the PROBLEM --- it IS a question of Calvinism. And your question is really asking "DIRECTION".

From what direction does our repentance flow --- from us towards God, or from God towards us?

Jesus says in verses like Lk13:3, "unless you REPENT, you WILL perish". Would such a statement make any sense if Jesus understood repentance as coming FROM God TOWARDS man?

I cannot conceive of anyone saying that "our sin is God's will"; clearly it's God's will for us to be RIGHTEOUS, which is to spurn sin.

That we sin demonstrates we have the power to resist God's will (demonstrating that His WILL for our righteousness is a REQUEST, not a COMMAND).

There is no difference in our ability to SIN, or our ability to REPENT; both are self-actualized.

If repentance was directed from GOD towards MAN, then there would be no sin in saved people; for none could resist what God has decreed.

Does that make sense?

 

[eldermike]

JN 14:25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom theFather will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

When you repent of sin, don't forget to Thank God for reminding you of your sin. Otherwise you might take credit for it.

 

[Ben_Hur]

But that's the PROBLEM --- it IS a question of Calvinism. And your question is really asking "DIRECTION".

From what direction does our repentance flow --- from us towards God, or from God towards us?

Jesus says in verses like Lk13:3, "unless you REPENT, you WILL perish". Would such a statement make any sense if Jesus understood repentance as coming FROM God TOWARDS man?

I cannot conceive of anyone saying that "our sin is God's will"; clearly it's God's will for us to be RIGHTEOUS, which is to spurn sin.

That we sin demonstrates we have the power to resist God's will (demonstrating that His WILL for our righteousness is a REQUEST, not a COMMAND).

There is no difference in our ability to SIN, or our ability to REPENT; both are self-actualized.

If repentance was directed from GOD towards MAN, then there would be no sin in saved people; for none could resist what God has decreed.

Does that make sense?

Yes. That makes sense. I just figured people would start saying that we are "granted" repentance by virtue of our "predesitination." That is not a good enough answer for me, as I am somewhere in between calvanism and arminianism in my belief (both theologies rub me the wrong way for their own reasons).

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

But when I read the 2 Tim verse, I think, it is more dynamic than that. He picks and chooses who gets repentance, or the ability to repent to the point of salvation.

I think so too. But not in a "predestination" sense. I think God grants everyone repentance (the opportunity to repent). These people had already been given an opportunity to repent because it says that they "oppose themselves". The gospel being presented along with the Holy Spirit's conviction is an opportunity for them to recover themselves out of the snare of the devil.
I think what Paul is saying is that God may or may not give them another opportunity.

 

[Ben johnson]

I am somewhere in between calvanism and arminianism in my belief (both theologies rub me the wrong way for their own reasons).

I don't really hold to any of the points of Calvinism; but there is a point or two of Arminianism to which I don't hold, either.

So I also don't like the label of "Arminian"...

 

[frumanchu]

I think what Paul is saying is that God may or may not give them another opportunity.

To me this sounds inconsistent with the arguments put forth by the non-Calvinists regarding God willing the salvation of all individual men. Seems to me if He truly willed the salvation of all men He would give them as many opportunities as possible

 

[eldermike]

To repent, you must be convicted. Can you be convicted of sin to the point of repentance, apart from God?

If you believe that apart from God you can do nothing, then you must also know that apart from God you can't repent.
Note:
If you are not apart from God then you are saved.

If you believe that you can separate yourself from God and then return, then you must believe that apart from God you can do something.

Eldermike

 

[Ben johnson]

If you believe that you can separate yourself from God and then return, then you must believe that apart from God you can do something.

Absolutely we can do something apart from God --- we can, and do, SIN. There is no such thing as a Christian who NEVER SINS. We are "fallible".

I don't think anyone can contend that SINNING is NOT "apart from God". Which means, God --- is resistible.

To repent, you must be convicted. Can you be convicted of sin to the point of repentance, apart from God?

There is a SUBTLETY in your question. Consider Eph2:5: "When we were dead in our sins, He made us alive together in Christ." Your understanding of this, Mike, differs from mine.

You understand: "He made us alive together with Jesus, BEFORE we believed" (belief consequents from "being made alive")

I undersatnd: "He made us alive together with Jesus, THROUGH our belief" ("alive" consequents from "belief")

So when you ask, "can you be convicted to repentance, apart from God?" --- you are expressing the understanding I just cited. But the ANSWER, is YES --- you can be convicted BEFORE belief, BEFORE being alive --- it is that conviction that throws us before the Cross on our knees. AND the answer is NO --- God must CALL us to repentance FIRST; and here too is a difference in oppinion --- I perceive that God calls ALL to repentance.

Consider Acts 2:37: "When they HEARD this they were PIERCED TO THE HEART (smitten in conscience), and said to Peter and the Apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do (to be saved)?' And Peter said, 'Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the Holy Spirit.' " Here is clear evidence of SEQUENCE:
hearing => belief => conviction => repentance => salvation

So the SUBTLETY, is what we are THINKING when we READ certain verses; sometimes we read something a certain way because of prior understanding.

 

[Sunbeam]

I don't really hold to any of the points of Calvinism; but there is a point or two of Arminianism to which I don't hold, either.

So I also don't like the label of "Arminian"...

First, Ben, if you and the others will forgive me in these discussions at this point, I'll admit that I just do not have it in me to debate pro-arminian or OSNAS. I prefer giving support to others in general. That being said, I will not throw out anymore questions or statements that I will not come back to answer. I do read though on occasion.

Ben, and other 'freewillers' here, I would like to know which arminian points you do not believe in of the following and why, if we agree on the below as stated. I am iffy on #3 because I think that people can do good apart from God but also may not be saved. #1 and #2 do not specify that obedience must be with belief. But overall, I don't have a problem with the label or points. It is hard to find the points online though. I am still going through the sites on this. Its possible there is another statement of these points worded differently since I saw one that the calvinists declared as DAISY instead of TULIP which I did not agree with the representation of. This is not the DAISY one, as you'll see the first letters do not match the flower name, but it is one I have found online.

Calvinists comments are appreciated but I do not wish to engage in much back-and-forth comment on the issue since I am not suprised with what you think or your reasons of such.

1. God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving.
2. Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
3. Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit.
4. All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.
5. Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, Sunbeam. Well, I saw a different list of "Arminianism Points" before --- and one or two on THAT list didn't agree with me. Like you, I am unsure about #3; Jesus says in Jn15, "Apart from Me you can do NOTHING". We see the unsaved doing things that we would call good. Would God call them good? Perhaps; does He work through the unsaved? Perhaps. I guess I'm not equipped to answer that completely.

But I cannot understand how some say, "RECEIVING Jesus is a WORK; and if it is of OURSELVES, then we are saved by WORKS." If believing is a work, then John6:29 says "it's the work of GOD, rather than OUR work".

 

[Sunbeam]

Hi, Sunbeam. Well, I saw a different list of "Arminianism Points" before --- and one or two on THAT list didn't agree with me. Like you, I am unsure about #3; Jesus says in Jn15, "Apart from Me you can do NOTHING". We see the unsaved doing things that we would call good. Would God call them good? Perhaps; does He work through the unsaved? Perhaps. I guess I'm not equipped to answer that completely.

But I cannot understand how some say, "RECEIVING Jesus is a WORK; and if it is of OURSELVES, then we are saved by WORKS." If believing is a work, then John6:29 says "it's the work of GOD, rather than OUR work".

"Recieving being a work" has much vague information in that statement. It is very unclear on a few areas. Do they mean "receiving" as in going over their entire life and seeing what is not pleasing to the commandments of the Bible specifically the New Testament and the Gospels that have the words of Jesus, and admitting each specific thing, and then making a plan to change this if a continuing problem and planning to say that way? Or "recieving" as a pretty action word that really means to be able to claim they believe in Christ in which the demons to also hold to the same claim?

It is stated to be in my opinion as nothing more to them than this pretty action word in which it becomes a springboard to make all kinds of flowery and descriptive speeches about unrelatable analogies of physical actions in various ways which have nothing to do with repentance. Two of the most common scenarios has to do with catching a ball and giving someone a physical gift which does not translate well at all. (And BTW, people do take back what is on a loan as a gift which is more suited than the "God is not an Indian-giver" speech that I have heard to the point that some people out there think that that has a verse and a chapter behind it.)It is just fluffy words and pretty pictures for the mind to be said in a stoic Stanley or Grahamn manner for the best effect. As you can tell by the tone of my writing, I start to get a little ticked by this subject. My heart beats faster and the words I choose to type show that I do not do well with this discussion as others do.

It is clear to me that salvation means OBEDIENCE, HOLDING TO REPENTENCE TIL DEATH, HAVING AN INNER ENERGY THAT PROMPTS TO DO GOOD, AND WE ARE ALL CLEARLY IN DANGER.

I'm not perfect certainly and it pains me that I have to struggle with problems that others don't even think about struggling with. As in the infamous "It's under grace, hun". And, I certainly don't think that's what grace is! I start to feel ticked when I hear so many buzzwords without any practical reason NOR feeling NOR biblical context behind them. It offends me that my fellow christians have a dramatically different way of looking at salvation matters. When my heart starts to beat faster, its time for me to leave it to God rather than risk being ganged up on or being reported for really truly inane things.

"Recieving as being a work" doesn't make any sense!

W H A T S O E V E R I N A N Y W A Y

nor anytime nor place in the bible.