Rename this forum?

[WalksWithChrist]

Actually, it's not. If you ever studied real American history, you would know that this nation was founded on Christian values, and that all the founders, except one, was devoutly Christian and relied on Christ through all that happened in the course of our bid for freedom. Of course, revisionist history has removed all traces of that, but if you search hard enough, you will find the truth about it. It is out there.

This country was founded on the ideals of religious freedom. That does not in any way equate to "Christian Nation."

A greater majority of the same folks you refer to were also Masons and US history is steeped in Masonic symbolism and ideals. Which I hope we can agree are far from Christian. Are we a Masonic Nation? No by the same principle that we are not a Christian Nation.

We are a great nation that does have a rich history of Christian leadership and faithfulness, absolutely. But I just don't see why people are stuck so much on the idea of a Christian Nation.

And now that we have dragged this thread *completely* off track!

 

[desmalia]

But what really fluffs my bunny...and I've said it over and over...is this "conservative theologically" or being "conservative enough theologically" to participate in CC...is more often than not...just a passkey to defend liberal sociopolitical views.

Bingo. And that may always be a problem here as there will always be people who want to take advantage of gray areas associated with these kinds of labels. It's not as easy as with denominational forums where either you belong to that denom or you don't. I also find it -ahem- interesting how the easiest way to defend such behavior is to play the "oh, so I'm not welcome here?" card instead of being responsible and showing a little respect.

(Fluffs my bunny - love it!! )

 

[A New Dawn]

This country was founded on the ideals of religious freedom. That does not in any way equate to "Christian Nation."

A greater majority of the same folks you refer to were also Masons and US history is steeped in Masonic symbolism and ideals. Which I hope we can agree are far from Christian. Are we a Masonic Nation? No by the same principle that we are not a Christian Nation.

We are a great nation that does have a rich history of Christian leadership and faithfulness, absolutely. But I just don't see why people are stuck so much on the idea of a Christian Nation.

And now that we have dragged this thread *completely* off track!

It was founded on the ideals of religious freedom in that there was to be separation of church and state, meaning that the church would not run the state, the way many European countries were being run at the time. That does not lessen the fact that the founding fathers (except for one) were devoutly Christian and based all of their ideals for the country, for the documents that support the country, etc., on Christian ideals. You may choose to overlook those facts, but they were present in all their writings, etc., and it was common, public knowledge, and people denying it doesn't make it less so.

 

[Sketcher]

It was founded on the ideals of religious freedom in that there was to be separation of church and state, meaning that the church would not run the state, the way many European countries were being run at the time. That does not lessen the fact that the founding fathers (except for one) were devoutly Christian and based all of their ideals for the country, for the documents that support the country, etc., on Christian ideals. You may choose to overlook those facts, but they were present in all their writings, etc., and it was common, public knowledge, and people denying it doesn't make it less so.

That doesn't make a nation a Christian nation. We never were an officially Christian nation, and never will be as long as there is no state church. I would like the defacto morals of this nation to not only be more Christian, but to actually be practiced. But I'm not sure that would even make us an unofficially Christian nation. And having a real "Christian nation" isn't what the church should be focused on anyway. We should be focused on advancing the spiritual kingdom of God.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

It was founded on the ideals of religious freedom in that there was to be separation of church and state, meaning that the church would not run the state, the way many European countries were being run at the time. That does not lessen the fact that the founding fathers (except for one) were devoutly Christian and based all of their ideals for the country, for the documents that support the country, etc., on Christian ideals. You may choose to overlook those facts, but they were present in all their writings, etc., and it was common, public knowledge, and people denying it doesn't make it less so.

And you may choose to overlook my point about the Masons. I invite you to address it. Masonic teachings and values were as much a part of the founding of this nation as Christian values.

You can't speak about the values of the founding fathers without mentioning Masonic rites and so forth.

That doesn't make a nation a Christian nation. We never were an officially Christian nation, and never will be as long as there is no state church. I would like the defacto morals of this nation to not only be more Christian, but to actually be practiced. But I'm not sure that would even make us an unofficially Christian nation. And having a real "Christian nation" isn't what the church should be focused on anyway. We should be focused on advancing the spiritual kingdom of God.

Pretty much. I love the US as much as the next person (no really...go USA!), but it is just a country after all. Countries come and go. They change names, they change borders...they change governments.

God is eternal! And that is where we should keep our focus. When I really stop and think about it, calling the US a "Christian Nation" boils down to idolatry. Idolizing something man made. I don't say that to offend anyone who advocates it, so please don't take this observation personally.


ETA: I was doing some reading on the subject and came across this. So I guess my view isn't an isolated one.
http://vanguardchurch.blogspot.com/2006/08/myth-of-christian-nation.html

(this is a quote from within the blog...quote of a quote basically!)

I believe a significant segment of American evangelicalism is guilty of nationalistic and political idolatry.

 

[Cris413]

This country was founded on the ideals of religious freedom. That does not in any way equate to "Christian Nation."

A greater majority of the same folks you refer to were also Masons and US history is steeped in Masonic symbolism and ideals. Which I hope we can agree are far from Christian. Are we a Masonic Nation? No by the same principle that we are not a Christian Nation.

We are a great nation that does have a rich history of Christian leadership and faithfulness, absolutely. But I just don't see why people are stuck so much on the idea of a Christian Nation.

And now that we have dragged this thread *completely* off track!

I'm just gonna "ding dong" in here for a sec "real quick"

Well then, in your own words…even your leader Obama is ding donger as well….and I quote:

“Whatever WE ONCE WERE….we are NO LONGER…..a Christian Nation….”

Meaning even Obama understands…that the majority of people AND many in leadership in this country….considered and still do concider…Christianity as a foundational facet of this country.

And regardless….76% of of the population still identify themselves as Christian.

And if we were never “whatever” there would be no need to announce that we are NO LONGER…”whatever”…and then of course drive the point home…by publicly mocking God’s word taken completely out of context.

The objective being…to put the pedal to the metal in discouraging, denouncing, refuting with aforethought and disdain…GOD…in the hearts and minds of the people…

BECAUSE...


The goal IS NOT to bring the standard of living UP for ANYONE…but rather to bring the standard of living DOWN for EVERYONE…basically so they can keep people downtrodden, oppressed and reliant and dependent on the GOVERNMENT for their providence….so they can maintain their power base.

Which is WHY…they MUST do everything the can to eliminate GOD from the hearts and minds of the people…because…even if they truly think they are doing good for “progress” sake….they are playing right into the enemy’s claws…

....because the enemy assuredly knows…that even in the most dire of circumstances…there is peace and joy, strength and perserverence…and hope in the Lord, Christ Jesus…and trusting in HIM and HIS providence.

If people truly understood in their hearts and minds that:

Php 4:11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
Php 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.


And truly have hope...and trust in God...there really wouldn't be any need to place our hope and trust...in any government or political leader...


...now would there...

 

[Cris413]

Bingo. And that may always be a problem here as there will always be people who want to take advantage of gray areas associated with these kinds of labels. It's not as easy as with denominational forums where either you belong to that denom or you don't. I also find it -ahem- interesting how the easiest way to defend such behavior is to play the "oh, so I'm not welcome here?" card instead of being responsible and showing a little respect.

(Fluffs my bunny - love it!! )

...

Yeah...my "bunny" doesn't "boil" anymore...because as things "Progress" ...

...the more my faith increases...and I have submitted to the fact that it is what it is...and it's all par for the course...

And...I just need to pray and watch...be about our Father's Kingdom business...and not let my bunny boil...

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I'm just gonna "ding dong" in here for a sec "real quick"

Well then, in your own words…even your leader Obama is ding donger as well….and I quote:

“Whatever WE ONCE WERE….we are NO LONGER…..a Christian Nation….”

Meaning even Obama understands…that the majority of people AND many in leadership in this country….considered and still do concider…Christianity as a foundational facet of this country.

And regardless….76% of of the population still identify themselves as Christian.

And if we were never “whatever” there would be no need to announce that we are NO LONGER…”whatever”…and then of course drive the point home…by publicly mocking God’s word taken completely out of context.

The objective being…to put the pedal to the metal in discouraging, denouncing, refuting with aforethought and disdain…GOD…in the hearts and minds of the people…

BECAUSE...


The goal IS NOT to bring the standard of living UP for ANYONE…but rather to bring the standard of living DOWN for EVERYONE…basically so they can keep people downtrodden, oppressed and reliant and dependent on the GOVERNMENT for their providence….so they can maintain their power base.

Which is WHY…they MUST do everything the can to eliminate GOD from the hearts and minds of the people…because…even if they truly think they are doing good for “progress” sake….they are playing right into the enemy’s claws…

....because the enemy assuredly knows…that even in the most dire of circumstances…there is peace and joy, strength and perserverence…and hope in the Lord, Christ Jesus…and trusting in HIM and HIS providence.

If people truly understood in their hearts and minds that:

Php 4:11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
Php 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.


And truly have hope...and trust in God...there really wouldn't be any need to place our hope and trust...in any government or political leader...


...now would there...

Before I reply to this huge rambling mess of a post...

Go ahead and read the post I put up right above yours. It adds some content I think you would like to address. It will be "real quick" I promise!

 

[Cris413]

Before I reply to this huge rambling mess of a post...

Go ahead and read the post I put up right above yours. It adds some content I think you would like to address. It will be "real quick" I promise!

I did read it...which is why the crux of the point I was making wasn't on the Founding Fathers...

Toss in a couple Masons to the hundreds of people, prominent Christians, in the establishing the foundations of this country...and yikes...that just blows the whole premise...of a country founded on Christian "Religious Freedom"

Not to mention the whole error in understanding and the myth of "Separation of Church and State" as Constitutional.

Rarely will one even simply consider...that the First Amendment protects the people from the government enforcing by LAW...any religion on the people...

...but it by no means...protects the government from people influencing religous values on the government...by the will of the people...and for now...that means...the majority...is STILL Christian...and certainly do have a say....as WE THE PEOPLE...in HOW we are governed.

But no worries...Bri...this will not be the case much longer.

And I for one...am NOT going to going into the whole "Free Masonry" debate again...and yes...it is evil...more than many people realize. 'nuff said...

The point IS...a MAJORITY of the people identify themselves as CHRISTIAN...and therefore...should not be disdained for applying their CHRISTIAN values to our communities and our nation...in a goverment of WE THE PEOPLE...

And ...just because YOU deem my thoughts a huge, rambling mess...doesn't make it so Brian...

Which...I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and point out is what...typical Liberal DEBATE TACTIC NUMBER 2 or something...

Don't address the points...at least not BEFORE undermining the credibilty or intelligence of the author...

Seriously B...I thought you were better than that... Well, as least you promote yourself as better than that...you know...putting your money where your mouth is and such...

The only thing worse than an outright, in your face, full frontal assault...

...are the covert...honey drippers...that try and pass themselves off...reasonable and altruistic on the outside...but inside...are just the same as those they criticize...

done with you my "friend"...and done with this discussion...

I still love ya dude...but I think it's better we just part ways...for both of us.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

I did read it...which is why the crux of the point I was making wasn't on the Founding Fathers...

Toss in a couple Masons to the hundreds of people, prominent Christians, in the establishing the foundations of this country...and yikes...that just blows the whole premise...of a country founded on Christian "Religious Freedom"

Not to mention the whole error in understanding and the myth of "Separation of Church and State" as Constitutional.

Rarely will one even simply consider...that the First Amendment protects the people from the government enforcing by LAW...any religion on the people...

...but it by no means...protects the government from people influencing religous values on the government...by the will of the people...and for now...that means...the majority...is STILL Christian...and certainly do have a say....as WE THE PEOPLE...in HOW we are governed.

But no worries...Bri...this will not be the case much longer.

And I for one...am NOT going to going into the whole "Free Masonry" debate again...and yes...it is evil...more than many people realize. 'nuff said...

The point IS...a MAJORITY of the people identify themselves as CHRISTIAN...and therefore...should not be disdained for applying their CHRISTIAN values to our communities and our nation...in a goverment of WE THE PEOPLE...

And ...just because YOU deem my thoughts a huge, rambling mess...doesn't make it so Brian...

Which...I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and point out is what...typical Liberal DEBATE TACTIC NUMBER 2 or something...

Don't address the points...at least not BEFORE undermining the credibilty or intelligence of the author...

Seriously B...I thought you were better than that... Well, as least you promote yourself as better than that...you know...putting your money where your mouth is and such...

The only thing worse than an outright, in your face, full frontal assault...

...are the covert...honey drippers...that try and pass themselves off...reasonable and altruistic on the outside...but inside...are just the same as those they criticize...

done with you my "friend"...and done with this discussion...

I still love ya dude...but I think it's better we just part ways...for both of us.

Cris, let me say this very clearly.

I meant absolutely no offense in anything in my post to you. None whatsoever.

I was simply meaning to direct you to my post that I thought you may have missed.

I was, and still am, prepared to discuss all your points you brought up. I was totally fluffing your bunny with the rambling remark.

(did I use that phrase correctly?)

 

[A New Dawn]

And you may choose to overlook my point about the Masons. I invite you to address it. Masonic teachings and values were as much a part of the founding of this nation as Christian values.

Methinks someone is watching too much National Treasure and DaVinci Code.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Methinks someone is watching too much National Treasure and DaVinci Code.

Nice dismissal. Let me know when you are ready for me to take your ideas and postings seriously. Because I really am interested in the points you bring up.

 

[A New Dawn]

Pretty much. I love the US as much as the next person (no really...go USA!), but it is just a country after all. Countries come and go. They change names, they change borders...they change governments.

God is eternal! And that is where we should keep our focus. When I really stop and think about it, calling the US a "Christian Nation" boils down to idolatry. Idolizing something man made. I don't say that to offend anyone who advocates it, so please don't take this observation personally.

What you see as idolatry another sees as furthering the kingdom by making our actions match our faith. It is easy to say "I believe X, Y, and Z", but keep your beliefs so close to your vest that you don't appear any different from your neighbor who is atheist. Someone whose faith is so strong that it controls their lives, who believes in morality, who believes that this is one method that God calls us to be stewards, spends their life living out their faith. I'm not sure how that can be considered idolatry, except by those who don't really understand God's call in our life.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

What you see as idolatry another sees as furthering the kingdom by making our actions match our faith. It is easy to say "I believe X, Y, and Z", but keep your beliefs so close to your vest that you don't appear any different from your neighbor who is atheist. Someone whose faith is so strong that it controls their lives, who believes in morality, who believes that this is one method that God calls us to be stewards, spends their life living out their faith. I'm not sure how that can be considered idolatry, except by those who don't really understand God's call in our life.

I think we do agree that Christian principles can and should guide the US. That I am not disputing.

I am simply saying I have a problem with calling the US a Christian Nation.
That is all.