Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[pescador]

No but I think that Judaism has nothing to do with Christianity other than shared roots. That goes for Catholics and Protestants too. The roots belong to all. But the branches are different.

If you reply to my post, please include all of it. You're not my editor.

I wrote, "Nobody is comparing them; it's like apples and oranges. Just because apples exist doesn't mean that oranges don't.

The First Covenant is still in effect for those that are under God's law: the Jews. If you believe in God, your either under the First Covenant or the Second. Jew or Christian.

BTW, are you anti-Semitic?"

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In case you're not aware, Jews and Christians believe in the same God.

The roots don't "belong to all". The Jews are the root; Jews and Gentiles are the branches.

Romans 11:17-24, "Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God—harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And even they [the Jews]—if they do not continue in their unbelief—will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If you reply to my post, please include all of it. You're not my editor.

I wrote, "Nobody is comparing them; it's like apples and oranges. Just because apples exist doesn't mean that oranges don't.

The First Covenant is still in effect for those that are under God's law: the Jews. If you believe in God, your either under the First Covenant or the Second. Jew or Christian.

BTW, are you anti-Semitic?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In case you're not aware, Jews and Christians believe in the same God.

The roots don't "belong to all". The Jews are the root; Jews and Gentiles are the branches.

Romans 11:17-24, "Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God—harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And even they [the Jews]—if they do not continue in their unbelief—will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?

Well to include your long post to which I am not going to bother to answer to every accusation .... the roots are the same, not the teachings. Messianics are in your opinion under the law. I’m sure they would disagree unless they were actual Jews, to which some would say following every ordinance is the way. Jesus would disagree since He broke them down to two to follow.

 

[HIM]

It is disconcerting that so many don’t see the stop/start between old and new, but that’s probably because time overlaps for all of His lessons to be fulfilled within each believer.

That is an issue, but that is not what this thread is about.

 

[HIM]

Those who live by God's OT law are still under the First Covenant.

His law, His Word through Christ is in the heart and mind. How can one who professes not live by It that has become part of them?

 

[HIM]

Well to include your long post to which I am not going to bother to answer to every accusation .... the roots are the same, not the teachings. Messianics are in your opinion under the law. I’m sure they would disagree unless they were actual Jews, to which some would say following every ordinance is the way. Jesus would disagree since He broke them down to two to follow.

He did not brake them down to two to follow.

He said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:40

Hang = suspends or depends, not brake them down to two to follow. Please don't insert or assert what is not there.

Hang is translated from the Greek word κρεμάννυμι. Here is Strong's and Thayers' entry. Also provided is what words was the word used for to translate the Hebrew in the OT to the the Greek in the LXX.

κρεμάννυμι
kremannumi
krem-an'-noo-mee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to hang: - hang.

LXX related word(s)
H2388 chazaq = fasten
H5414 natan hoph. = give
H8511 tala = suspend
H8518 talah qal,ni,pi = suspend

Thayer Definition:
1) to hang up, suspend
2) to be suspended, to hang
2a) used of one hanging on a cross
2b) used of the Law and the Prophets, they is summed up or hanging on two precepts
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged form of a primary verb
More in NTW: G6408

 

[HIM]

We are.

Just not the Sabbath.
Why?

 

[HIM]

↑
Back to the point being made in the beginning. Their falling way, their rebellion, their unbelief. Was their lack of commitment, trusting God and in all things and forsaking sin; not them wanting to turn back to their OT religion. What you you are asserting is an assumption that can not be proven in Hebrews. So why go there?

Clare73 said:
"See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."
NB: There is an issue of not holding firmly, of falling way (rebellion, apostasy) by the NT Hebrews that the writer is addressing. They were considering a return to their OT religion, perhaps because of persecution by their fellow Hebrews, or threats of their
families to disinherit them, or both.

Done. . .in post #1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

No, what is emphasized in bold is commentary in your post and is not scripture and can not be proven with the text of Hebrews anywhere. The sinful unbelieving heart is defined in the passages as one that is living in sin not one that is reverting back to OT religion. Verses say harden not your hearts as in the provocation. In their provocation they grieved God. With Whom was he grieved? Them that sinned through their evil hearts of unbelief, the disobedient, the uncommitted, they that departed from the Living God that is who.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

 

[Bob S]

We can believe any thing we want. The fact is what we believe may not be true and trying to convince others of false believing is heresy..

pescador, are you aware that the covenant given to Israel was conditional?

Ex 19:5 Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

See the "IF"? God put a stipulation in the covenant that Israel never kept. The covenant became void, the land of Canaan taken away from them and finally at Jesus death the vail of the Temple was ripped finalizing the end of the Levite priesthood. For some reaon we are not privy to it took seventy more years for the Temple was destroyed and animal sacrifices to end. The sacrificial system ended when Jesus became the sacrifice for all mankind. At Calvary Jesus also ratified the new covenant with His own blood.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

The invitation for Israelites to come and accept Jesus and the new and everlasting covenant is still open. Jews have been warned not to refuse Jesus. The new covenant is the only way to eternal life. There is no old covenant because it was replaced with the better covenant with better promises.

Jews are just playing house. Everyone's reward comes from Jesus Christ. I certainly am not anyone's judge. All I can do is read the results of not accepting the new covenant.

 

[Nathan@work]

Just not the Sabbath.
Why?

I never said that.

 

[HIM]

I never said that.

So because Christ is in us therefore the the Sabbath is in our heart and mind and we should observe the Sabbath Friday sunset to Saturday sunset because that is what he did as the Word manifested in the flesh. So we having the Word manifested through Him in our flesh because of His indwelling will be doing the same. Amen.

 

[Nathan@work]

So because Christ is in us therefore the the Sabbath is in our heart and mind and we should observe the Sabbath Friday sunset to Saturday sunset because that is what he did as the Word manifested in the flesh. So we having the Word manifested through Him in our flesh because of His indwelling will be doing the same. Amen.

I never said that either.

You cannot dictate how the Spirit leads me, and I cannot dictate how the Spirit leads you.

If that is what the Spirit is leading you to do then all is well.

If it is what man made tradition is leading you to do - under the guise of being righteous - then be careful because there is a cliff up ahead.

 

[HIM]

I never said that either.

You cannot dictate how the Spirit leads me, and I cannot dictate how the Spirit leads you.

If that is what the Spirit is leading you to do then all is well.

If it is what man made tradition is leading you to do - under the guise of being righteous - then be careful because there is a cliff up ahead.

It is to be the same Spirit. It will not lead you to sin or me. That is our own doing. If one does not observe the Sabbath they have not guarded, kept what God has placed in their heart, the commandments, His Word, His Spirit through Christ. Therefore they are sinning, Missing the mark. That what God has intended. A life in Him through Him.

 

[Nathan@work]

It is to be the same Spirit. It will not lead you to sin or me. That is our own doing. If one does not observe the Sabbath they have not guarded, kept what God has placed in their heart, the commandments, His Word, His Spirit through Christ. Therefore they are sinning, Missing the mark. That what God has intended. A life in Him through Him.

I agree, He will not lead you to sin. Which is exactly why you need to follow where He is leading you.

Man will lead you to sin. You will even lead yourself to sin. But the Spirit never will.

Anything shy of perfect is sin.

 

[pescador]

Well to include your long post to which I am not going to bother to answer to every accusation .... the roots are the same, not the teachings. Messianics are in your opinion under the law. I’m sure they would disagree unless they were actual Jews, to which some would say following every ordinance is the way. Jesus would disagree since He broke them down to two to follow.

So it's obvious you don't understand what I wrote. I never said nor implied that Messianics are under the law. Obviously, a Messianic believes in the Messiah, thereby putting the Mosaic law in its proper place. How can a Messianic not be an "actual Jew"? I am worried about your confusion about this issue!

Also, what on Earth does "Jesus would disagree since He broke them down to two to follow" mean?

 

[pescador]

His law, His Word through Christ is in the heart and mind. How can one who professes not live by It that has become part of them?

The Mosaic law is written in what we refer to as the Old Testament. It is available in many formats: printed Bibles, Torah scrolls, online, etc.

If you live by the Law then you had better start buying some animals for sacrifice on the altar. Or do you follow just part of the Law?

 

[pescador]

We can believe any thing we want. The fact is what we believe may not be true and trying to convince others of false believing is heresy..

pescador, are you aware that the covenant given to Israel was conditional?

Ex 19:5 Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

See the "IF"? God put a stipulation in the covenant that Israel never kept. The covenant became void, the land of Canaan taken away from them and finally at Jesus death the vail of the Temple was ripped finalizing the end of the Levite priesthood. For some reaon we are not privy to it took seventy more years for the Temple was destroyed and animal sacrifices to end. The sacrificial system ended when Jesus became the sacrifice for all mankind. At Calvary Jesus also ratified the new covenant with His own blood.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

The invitation for Israelites to come and accept Jesus and the new and everlasting covenant is still open. Jews have been warned not to refuse Jesus. The new covenant is the only way to eternal life. There is no old covenant because it was replaced with the better covenant with better promises.

Jews are just playing house. Everyone's reward comes from Jesus Christ. I certainly am not anyone's judge. All I can do is read the results of not accepting the new covenant.

You wrote, "pescador, are you aware that the covenant given to Israel was conditional?"

Yes.

 

[pescador]

It is to be the same Spirit. It will not lead you to sin or me. That is our own doing. If one does not observe the Sabbath they have not guarded, kept what God has placed in their heart, the commandments, His Word, His Spirit through Christ. Therefore they are sinning, Missing the mark. That what God has intended. A life in Him through Him.

Well I guess that, by your reasoning, if one does not observe the Sabbath they have not guarded, kept what God has placed in their heart, the commandments, His Word, His Spirit through Christ. Therefore they are sinning, then Jesus and His followers were sinners because they violated the Sabbath. Obviously that is not the case, so you reasoning is wrong.

Matthew 12:1-8, "At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on a Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pick heads of wheat and eat them. But when the Pharisees saw this they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is against the law to do on the Sabbath.” He said to them, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry— how he entered the house of God and ate the sacred bread, which was against the law for him or his companions to eat, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that the priests in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are not guilty? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what this means: ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

He did not brake them down to two to follow.

He said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:40

Hang = suspends or depends, not brake them down to two to follow. Please don't insert or assert what is not there.

Hang is translated from the Greek word κρεμάννυμι. Here is Strong's and Thayers' entry. Also provided is what words was the word used for to translate the Hebrew in the OT to the the Greek in the LXX.

κρεμάννυμι
kremannumi
krem-an'-noo-mee
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to hang: - hang.

LXX related word(s)
H2388 chazaq = fasten
H5414 natan hoph. = give
H8511 tala = suspend
H8518 talah qal,ni,pi = suspend

Thayer Definition:
1) to hang up, suspend
2) to be suspended, to hang
2a) used of one hanging on a cross
2b) used of the Law and the Prophets, they is summed up or hanging on two precepts
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged form of a primary verb
More in NTW: G6408

But apparently loving God and others is the focus point.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So it's obvious you don't understand what I wrote. I never said nor implied that Messianics are under the law. Obviously, a Messianic believes in the Messiah, thereby putting the Mosaic law in its proper place. How can a Messianic not be an "actual Jew"? I am worried about your confusion about this issue!

Also, what on Earth does "Jesus would disagree since He broke them down to two to follow" mean?

I’m not interested in discussing Judaism (law)on a Christian only forum. If you care to discuss Christianity(grace) we may have something to talk about.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That is an issue, but that is not what this thread is about.

ok fine.