Remitting sins of others

[SharonL]

Sorry to bring this up again and I know I'll be pounded -

But...I posted a couple weeks ago about can we remit other peoples sins according to Job 22:30 "He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands."

There were mixed feelings, but I think I had a couple agree of you agreed with this.

I never believed this - but my friend and I were disagreeing about it. I'm still having problems with it - but that is what the Bible says.

Something happend yesterday that makes me really wonder if it is not so.

We have a man in our neighborhood who was dying - I did not know him well but I knew he was Mormon - I have really been concerned for his soul and have been praying to Jesus to come to him and show him that you are the King of Kings and Lord of all.

As I was going to exercise yesterday I was praying for different people - the Lord brought that verse in Job back to my mind very strongly and I said Lord if this is what you want me to do - I'll do it - so I prayed and stood in the gap for this man and repented of his sins as the Bible tells us that because of the cleaniness of our hands those that are not innocent will be saved. (again I am having problems with this) - but it was strange that God would bring that verse to my mind the very hour this man died.

I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit on me so strong that I knew It was not of my thinking.

What are your thoughts.

 

[Tenebrae]

sharon

could you check that reference again please, Job 20 only goes up to verse 29

 

[MikeMcK]

Sorry to bring this up again and I know I'll be pounded -

But...I posted a couple weeks ago about can we remit other peoples sins according to Job 20:30

There were mixed feelings, but I think I had a couple agree with me.

I never believed this - but my friend and I were disagreeing about it.

Something happend yesterday that makes me really wonder if it is not so.

We have a man in our neighborhood who was dying - I did not know him well but I knew he was Mormon - I have really been concerned for his soul and have been praying to Jesus to come to him and show him that you are the King of Kings and Lord of all.

As I was going to exercise yesterday I was praying for different people - the Lord brought that verse in Job back to my mind very strongly and I said Lord if this is what you want me to do - I'll do it - so I prayed and stood in the gap for this man and repented of his sins as the Bible tells us that because of the cleaniness of our hands those that are not innocent will be saved. (again I am having problems with this) - but it was strange that God would bring that verse to my mind the very hour this man died.

I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit on me so strong that I knew It was not of my thinking.

What are your thoughts.

That wasn't the Holy Spirit because such a thing as repenting for someone else is Unbiblical.

 

[Dondi]

I don't know abou "Job 20:30", but I did get this out of Job:


"And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." - Job 1:4-5

Apparently, Job believed he could make intercession for his sons by offering sacrifices to the Lord on their behalf. Would that be similiar to remitting one's sins?

 

[SharonL]

sharon

could you check that reference again please, Job 20 only goes up to verse 29

Sorry - it is Job 22:30

 

[Jillymac]

I don't have any scriptural back up for this, in fact I can't remember who said this, so take it or leave it.

It can happen that the town leaders can stand in on behalf of their city and repent for the sins that have taken over that city. There is somewhere in southern america (possibly mexico), the city leaders repented on behalf of the city, it was a miserable place, full of sin and wrong-doings (like most cities really) but when the leaders repented for themselves and their city, major changes started to take place for good - in fact, even the multi storey bank played worship music on every level. Big things started to change in the city.

I'm not saying we can stand on behalf of a single person, i'm unsure about this, however do you think it could be possible for the city leaders, who are responsible for the city to repent for the sins of the city?

Sharon I believe that we can pray for God to soften the hearts of the people who don't yet believe in order for them to receive the truth, however I don't think we can repent on behalf of them, it has to be a heart decision and we can't make choices of the heart for anyone but ourselves. From my understanding anyway.

 

[janny108]

I don't know abou "Job 20:30", but I did get this out of Job:


"And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." - Job 1:4-5

Apparently, Job believed he could make intercession for his sons by offering sacrifices to the Lord on their behalf. Would that be similiar to remitting one's sins?

Intercession (praying for) people is one thing, but repentance is between the person and God Himself.
Jan

 

[pdudgeon]

to understand this we need to realize that there are two levels of forgiveness--personal and corporate.

on a personal level we can decide not to hold someone at fault for what they have done against us. our decision is seen by the Father who then blots out that transgression in His book as being covered by Jesus' blood.

on a corporate level we can interceed for those whom the Father has placed under our responsibility.
In other words, if we are held accountable for what they do, then we are are also given the priviledge to interceed on their behalf to the Father, and to take their punnishment if necessary. Jesus would be the classic example.

but in the case given, the only request by the Holy Spirit was to interceed in prayer that the man might come to God before he died. you are not to assume either responsibility, guilt, or authority where God (in His mercy) did not require it of you.

 

[Tenebrae]

Sorry - it is Job 22:30

No probsThanks

 

[SharonL]

to understand this we need to realize that there are two levels of forgiveness--personal and corporate.

on a personal level we can decide not to hold someone at fault for what they have done against us. our decision is seen by the Father who then blots out that transgression in His book as being covered by Jesus' blood.

on a corporate level we can interceed for those whom the Father has placed under our responsibility.
In other words, if we are held accountable for what they do, then we are are also given the priviledge to interceed on their behalf to the Father, and to take their punnishment if necessary. Jesus would be the classic example.

but in the case given, the only request by the Holy Spirit was to interceed in prayer that the man might come to God before he died. you are not to assume either responsibility, guilt, or authority where God (in His mercy) did not require it of you.

Good word - helps me to understand it - I am totally confused on this - The way the word reads - the way my friend interceeded for her mother-in-law and the feeling I had to pray at the moment this man died.

Very confusing - Thanks again.

 

[CrazyforYeshua]

to understand this we need to realize that there are two levels of forgiveness--personal and corporate.

on a personal level we can decide not to hold someone at fault for what they have done against us. our decision is seen by the Father who then blots out that transgression in His book as being covered by Jesus' blood.

on a corporate level we can interceed for those whom the Father has placed under our responsibility.
In other words, if we are held accountable for what they do, then we are are also given the priviledge to interceed on their behalf to the Father, and to take their punnishment if necessary. Jesus would be the classic example.

but in the case given, the only request by the Holy Spirit was to interceed in prayer that the man might come to God before he died. you are not to assume either responsibility, guilt, or authority where God (in His mercy) did not require it of you.

I'm not sure I understand what I have underlined. We were not Yeshuas' responsibility, we are our own. It is up to us to decide to receive the gift of salvation that He offers, but it is not His responsibility whether we do or not. On that note, I believe it is the same with remitting others' sin, it is THEIR responsibility to be accountable for their own actions, and to ask for forgivness, we can't do it for them, otherwise, where would true repentence come in (on their part)?

 

[pdudgeon]

on a corporate level we can interceed for those whom the Father has placed under our responsibility.

ok, so let's find an example of people that are placed under authority. The quickest one that comes to mind is children. Children are under the general authority of their parents, who are responsible to raise them and care for them.
There are also specific areas of authority that children come under as they grow older. I'm thinking of teachers, bus drivers, coaches, etc. Those people would also be responsible for the care and nurture of the children in their specific care areas.

In other words, if we are held accountable for what they do, then we are are also given the priviledge to interceed on their behalf to the Father,

So it would make sense for a teacher to pray for her students that she/he would be able to teach and that they would learn what they needed to, for a bus driver to pray for the safety of the children on her bus as she transports them, or for a coach to pray that the children on his/her team learn good manners and conduct as well as plays.

Those are examples of corporate intercession.

and to take their punnishment if necessary. Jesus would be the classic example.

what the OP is talking about is taking spiritual authority over someone. that is not a mantle anyone assumes by their own power. it is given to them by God. Praying in intercession for someone is NOT taking spiritual authority over them.

 

[Christina M]

Job 22:30
He will even deliver one who is not innocent; Yes, he will be delivered by the purity of your hands."


So then, WHAT exactly does "deliver one who is not innocent.." mean? If we know God doesn't have grandkids....we are all responsibly to come to Him on our own, WHAT could this passage be talking about?

In Strong's it says this about the usage of the word "innocent" in the passage in Job:


1) to slip away, escape, deliver, save, be delivered
a) (Niphal)
1) to slip away
2) to escape
3) to be delivered
b) (Piel)
1) to lay, let slip out (of eggs)
2) to let escape
3) to deliver, save (life)
c) (Hiphil)
1) to give birth to
2) to deliver
d) (Hithpael)
1) to slip forth, slip out, escape 2) to escape


In the KJV, it says: He shall deliver the island of the innocent: and it is delivered by the pureness of thine hands.

It doesn't say "one who is not innocent"

But it seems to mean the same because when I look up "island of the innocent" it says:

island means:

1) not

and

innocent means:
1) clean, free from, exempt, clear, innocent


a) free from guilt, clean, innocent
b) free from punishment
c) free or exempt from obligations 2) innocent



I remember standing on this scripture when my ex-husband chose sin over God and me. I poured my heart out to the Lord and couldn't figure out how much more "clean" or "pure" my hands had to be....... it was very heart-wrenching. But, led me to believe this scripture does not mean what it appears to mean at first read.

 

[Christina M]

Both of these commentaries seem to indicate that others will be delivered by a righteous one's intercession.



Matthew Henry commentary:

That he should be a blessing to his country and an instrument of good to many (v. 30): God shall, in answer to thy prayers, deliver the island of the innocent, and have a regard therein to the pureness of thy hands, which is necessary to the acceptableness of our prayers, 1 Tim. 2:8. But, because we may suppose the innocent not to need deliverance (it was guilty Sodom that wanted the benefit of Abraham’s intercession), I incline to the marginal reading, The innocent shall deliver the island, by their advice (Eccl. 9:14, 15) and by their prayers and their interest in heaven, Acts 27:24. Or, He shall deliver those that are not innocent, and they are delivered by the pureness of thy hands; as it may be read, and most probably. Note, A good man is a public good. Sinners fare the better for saints, whether they are aware of it or no. If Eliphaz intended hereby (as some think he did) to insinuate that Job’s prayers were not prevailing, nor his hands pure (for then he would have relieved others, much more himself), he was afterwards made to see his error, when it appeared that Job had a better interest in heaven than he had; for he and his three friends, who in this matter were not innocent, were delivered by the pureness of Job’s hands, ch. 42:8.


Commentary by A.R. Faucett

30. island--that is, "dwelling." But the Hebrew expresses the negative ( 1Sa 4:21 ); translate "Thus He (God) shall deliver him who was not guiltless," namely, one, who like Job himself on conversion shall be saved, but not because he was, as Job so constantly affirms of himself, guiltless, but because he humbles himself ( Job 22:29 ); an oblique attack on Job, even to the last.
and it--Rather, "he (the one not heretofore guiltless) shall be delivered through the purity (acquired since conversion) of thy hands"; by thy intercession (as Gen 18:26 , &c.). [MAURER]. The irony is strikingly exhibited in Eliphaz unconsciously uttering words which exactly answer to what happened at last: he and the other two were "delivered" by God accepting the intercession of Job for them ( Job 42:7, 8 ).

 

[Christina M]

A related scripture:

2 Chron 7:14
Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and heal their land.

 

[pdudgeon]

I'm wondering also if this could be a Messianic passage?
it would certainly make more sense that way.

 

[SharonL]

A related scripture:

2 Chron 7:14
Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and heal their land.

Christina - thank you so much for all these explanations - this is a confusing one isn't it - You did a great job in pointing out all the possibilities. Thanks again.

 

[SharonL]

Both of these commentaries seem to indicate that others will be delivered by a righteous one's intercession.



Matthew Henry commentary:

That he should be a blessing to his country and an instrument of good to many (v. 30): God shall, in answer to thy prayers, deliver the island of the innocent, and have a regard therein to the pureness of thy hands, which is necessary to the acceptableness of our prayers, 1 Tim. 2:8. But, because we may suppose the innocent not to need deliverance (it was guilty Sodom that wanted the benefit of Abraham’s intercession), I incline to the marginal reading, The innocent shall deliver the island, by their advice (Eccl. 9:14, 15) and by their prayers and their interest in heaven, Acts 27:24. Or, He shall deliver those that are not innocent, and they are delivered by the pureness of thy hands; as it may be read, and most probably. Note, A good man is a public good. Sinners fare the better for saints, whether they are aware of it or no. If Eliphaz intended hereby (as some think he did) to insinuate that Job’s prayers were not prevailing, nor his hands pure (for then he would have relieved others, much more himself), he was afterwards made to see his error, when it appeared that Job had a better interest in heaven than he had; for he and his three friends, who in this matter were not innocent, were delivered by the pureness of Job’s hands, ch. 42:8.


Commentary by A.R. Faucett

30. island--that is, "dwelling." But the Hebrew expresses the negative ( 1Sa 4:21 ); translate "Thus He (God) shall deliver him who was not guiltless," namely, one, who like Job himself on conversion shall be saved, but not because he was, as Job so constantly affirms of himself, guiltless, but because he humbles himself ( Job 22:29 ); an oblique attack on Job, even to the last.
and it--Rather, "he (the one not heretofore guiltless) shall be delivered through the purity (acquired since conversion) of thy hands"; by thy intercession (as Gen 18:26 , &c.). [MAURER]. The irony is strikingly exhibited in Eliphaz unconsciously uttering words which exactly answer to what happened at last: he and the other two were "delivered" by God accepting the intercession of Job for them ( Job 42:7, 8 ).

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Christina M again.
​

Hey I tried.

 

[Christina M]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Christina M again.

​

Hey I tried.

Thanks anyway!


Isn't it cool to do this? I LOVE doing these rabbit trail studies.... this leads to that, which leads to this, which leads to that... All the while absorbing the Word at every step of the way!

He promises to reward those who diligently seek Him!

 

[Questioning Christian]

When Jesus told the apostles, "Whose sins you remit, they are remitted, and whose sins you retain, they are retained."

What did Jesus mean by that?

I don't have a definitive opinion on it [one of the .0000000000248795 % of the topics I don't have an opinion on ]