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Remember USS Liberty!!!

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FutureTeller

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The Israeli Armed Assault on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 :confused:

"Attack one American and you attack all Americans" was once proclaimed by President Clinton. More recently, an Assistant Secretary for State proclaimed that the U. S. government always protects its citizens. These are lies and meaningless words. These words were not true in 1967 (when Israel deliberately attacked the USS LIBERTY,) and unfortunately, and in spite of these beautiful words, they are not even true today. Moreover, there is no such thing as justice.

On that June day in 1967, the weather was beautiful... Clear and sunny, visibility unlimited... the LIBERTY, an elaborate state-of-the art intelligence gathering platform, was in international waters off the Gaza strip and was flying the Stars and Stripes. Israeli reconnaissance planes flew overhead for hours. Pilots and ship's crew waved to each other. Then, inexplicably, unmarked Israeli aircraft began attacking the ship.


The defenseless LIBERTY radioed for help. Two aircraft carriers in the Med responded by launching fighter aircraft. Unbelievably, they were recalled by the White House. RADM Geis, then commanding the carriers in the Sixth Fleet, called Washington personally to confirm the order. SecDef McNamara came on the line, then President Johnson. Johnson indicated to Geis that the aircraft were to be returned, that he would not have his allies embarrassed, and that he didn't care who was killed or what was done to the ship. Geis, like any good sailor, recalled the aircraft.

With no help forthcoming, the LIBERTY fell an easy victim to Israel's motor torpedo boat attack. FIVE torpedoes were lobbed at the Liberty, one hit amidships and instantly killed 25 sailors. A total of 34 died in the attack, 172 were injured.

President Johnson went on television and announced to the American people that TEN sailors were killed in the " six minute accidental" attack. Sailors were ordered not to discuss the incident with ANYONE under threat of court-martial. We waited for the investigation…and for the explanations and the answers. Why did Israel attack the ship? Why did the U. S. Government turn its back on the crew members? The answers never came. for the explanations and the answers. Why did Israel attack the ship? Why did the U. S. Government turn its back on the crew members? The answers never came.


James M. Ennes Jr. wrote:

There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.


]
 

Xen_Antares

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Nobody quite knows for sure why, or at least has come forward with the truth. I think the Israeli soldiers responsible for the attack wasn't aware it was really American. They were told it was Egyptian I think using an American flag to sneak past their defenses. What the governments of the United States and Israel are hiding, I do not know, but I believe in people, including soldiers. I think if the Israeli's knew they were shooting American's they would have stopped.

This happened in what 1966? 1967? This was a low period in US-Israeli relations, the US wasn't overly thrilled about Israel having nukes in the 1960s. In fact before President Kennedy was assassinated he was very forward with Israel on the weapons. There is speculation Israel was responsible for his death, again I can not confirm this and many people will call me a conspiracy nut for it. Could the attack on the USS Liberty be Israel's way of saying they arent afraid of the US? Any other attack on the US Navy would have led to war, thats how we became involved in both World Wars, the Spanish American War, the Vietnam War and was a major factor in the War of 1812. Strange isn't it?
 
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daidhaid

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Xen_Antares said:
Nobody quite knows for sure why, or at least has come forward with the truth. I think the Israeli soldiers responsible for the attack wasn't aware it was really American. They were told it was Egyptian I think using an American flag to sneak past their defenses. What the governments of the United States and Israel are hiding, I do not know, but I believe in people, including soldiers. I think if the Israeli's knew they were shooting American's they would have stopped.

I think the sailors on the Liberty are quite sure why.
As to the ship story. Geez anyone who would confuse any American Naval Vessel for a 3rd. world tramp is lying.
The Israelis were doing what they do best unprovoked attacks.
Israel is probably responsible for more mischief around the world than we will ever know.
The survivors of the Liberty have a website that easy to find. they don't think it was a mistake.
The attack wasn't a 5 minute mistake.
We should have wasted their entire air force for doing it.
It was a clear case of self defense for us with no real ambiguity.


Xen_Antares said:
This happened in what 1966? 1967? This was a low period in US-Israeli relations, the US wasn't overly thrilled about Israel having nukes in the 1960s. In fact before President Kennedy was assassinated he was very forward with Israel on the weapons. There is speculation Israel was responsible for his death, again I can not confirm this and many people will call me a conspiracy nut for it. Could the attack on the USS Liberty be Israel's way of saying they arent afraid of the US? Any other attack on the US Navy would have led to war, thats how we became involved in both World Wars, the Spanish American War, the Vietnam War and was a major factor in the War of 1812. Strange isn't it?

Probably they were tryng to prevent us gathering intel on their upcoming surprise attack on their neighbors. We might have tried to prevent them. It was so audacious we just swept it away.
Nam was keeping us busy we had big plans of our own.
Our Gov. sold those guys out.
Israel as an ally is a huge albatross around our necks.
 
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FutureTeller

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To know more about that issue, you can visit:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

You can visit: http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/stickers.htm to download the stamp above and more, if you want to spread this serious issue.



James M. Ennes Jr. wrote:

There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.


You can read more details under the above topic in:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm


If you like to know how much USA support and aids Israel despite of this, you can visit:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/index_usint.html
 
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IrishJohan

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I find it difficult to believe that Israel would deliberately target a US Navy ship to make a point. The risk involved in antagonizing such a vital ally would be grave indeed for the survival of their country. Our history has shown that we have gone to war over such matters more than once with very little mercy towards the attacker (till its over, then we make nice and rebuild them, but that's another story...).

Mistakes happen in combat. We've seen this in 'friendly fire' incidents in the Persian Gulf War, Afghanistan (ask the Canadians), and even Iraqi Freedom. Even the lack of widespread combat has shown this, with the accidental downing of an Iranian airliner a few years ago by American forces in the Gulf.

You've presented one side of the story, here's the other:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/liberty.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315949&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
 
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totheright

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I first heard about the Liberty from my Dad who was a Navy crypto tech at the time and knew some of the men aboard her. He recommended Assault on the Liberty to me which outraged me. I remain a fan of Israel but I am now much more of a realist as to our relationship with them.

I don't believe it was an accident. According to the book, Liberty was flying the holiday ensign which is the large U.S. flag and aircraft recce'd her position and should have seen the flag quite clearly.
 
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IrishJohan

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totheright said:
I first heard about the Liberty from my Dad who was a Navy crypto tech at the time and knew some of the men aboard her. He recommended Assault on the Liberty to me which outraged me. I remain a fan of Israel but I am now much more of a realist as to our relationship with them.
Still no good reason given just why Israel would deliberately seek to alienate if not antagonize its one main ally, something which especially back then could have threatened its very survival.

I don't believe it was an accident. According to the book, Liberty was flying the holiday ensign which is the large U.S. flag and aircraft recce'd her position and should have seen the flag quite clearly.
According to all official reports and released tapes of the incident, this flag wasn't so clearly seen by the pilots. Read the links I provided. There are many instances where markings or flags are thought by those accidentally targeted were enough, but in hindsight prove not to have been enough. Mistakes were made and those not intended to be targeted were fired upon. Ask those flying on a clearly marked Iranian civilian airliner the United States shot down over the Gulf; Canadian soldiers bombed by US aircraft in Afghanistan; American soldiers in American combat vehicles clearly marked fired upon by other Americans in the Gulf War; etc.
 
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totheright

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IrishJohan said:
Still no good reason given just why Israel would deliberately seek to alienate if not antagonize its one main ally, something which especially back then could have threatened its very survival.

According to all official reports and released tapes of the incident, this flag wasn't so clearly seen by the pilots. Read the links I provided. There are many instances where markings or flags are thought by those accidentally targeted were enough, but in hindsight prove not to have been enough. Mistakes were made and those not intended to be targeted were fired upon. Ask those flying on a clearly marked Iranian civilian airliner the United States shot down over the Gulf; Canadian soldiers bombed by US aircraft in Afghanistan; American soldiers in American combat vehicles clearly marked fired upon by other Americans in the Gulf War; etc.

One possible explanation has been suggested by other posters: that Israel had/was about to (it's been several years since I read the book) attack the Golan Heights.

Your analogy with the airliner fails. You're comparing a contact on a radar screen or an IFF squawk with a visual on an actual ship by Israeli military units. Plus military pilots are very well trained on silhouettes, so they should have known the difference. I would also guess, but don't know for sure, that the hull numbers on Egyptian ships are somewhat distinct, as American and Soviet ships were obviously different. Also, I'm somewhat skeptical that a helicopter pilot was able to see the ensign on a ship that was afire but that Israeli units were not able to beforehand.

I remain rather open on the topic and would find most interesting a debate between two experts on the subject presenting both sides.
 
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Citizen of Earth

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FutureTeller, I know exactly what you are up to and what you are hoping to promote ... and not that I entirely disagree with your position, but just make sure you direct your anger toward the Israeli government and elite and not against the Israeli people or Jews in general.

Promote a more peaceful Israel and cut US funding? Of course.
Stir up Jew-hating? No.
 
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alonesoldier

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I think it was a post intended to make a political statement about Israel by presenting an event that may have gone done a certain way in 1967. I think we have bigger fish to fry and I think it belongs in the political forum anyway.
 
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IrishJohan

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totheright said:
One possible explanation has been suggested by other posters: that Israel had/was about to (it's been several years since I read the book) attack the Golan Heights.
That's not enough for Israel to jeopardize its survival by attacking its only ally. I see no reason to believe this was anything other than a tragic mistake.

Your analogy with the airliner fails. You're comparing a contact on a radar screen or an IFF squawk with a visual on an actual ship by Israeli military units. Plus military pilots are very well trained on silhouettes, so they should have known the difference. I would also guess, but don't know for sure, that the hull numbers on Egyptian ships are somewhat distinct, as American and Soviet ships were obviously different. Also, I'm somewhat skeptical that a helicopter pilot was able to see the ensign on a ship that was afire but that Israeli units were not able to beforehand.
No analogy is perfect and I gave others. For more, see the links I provided.

I remain rather open on the topic and would find most interesting a debate between two experts on the subject presenting both sides.
Now this would be interesting...
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

This is from today's Jerusalem Post:
_____

USS 'Liberty' hit was unintentional, says CIA

By JANINE ZACHARIA

New documents released by the State Department relating to the period of the 1967 Six Day War include CIA memos that say Israel did not know it was striking an American vessel when it attacked the USS Liberty off the coast of the Gaza Strip on June 8, 1967, killing 34 American sailors and injuring 172. The memos say the attack was carried out "by mistake, representing gross negligence."

Along with the release of the documents, the historian for the top-secret National Security Agency said Monday he believed available evidence "strongly suggested" Israel did not know it was bombarding an American ship.

On Monday, the State Department hosted a conference on the 1967 war, including the Liberty incident, to mark the release of a new volume of historical papers from the Johnson Administration. The 542 declassified documents, roughly 1100 pages in length, were culled from the archives of the White House, State Department, Pentagon and various intelligence agencies. They cover May through November 1967.

Historians said the new documentation included little new on the Liberty incident itself. It is still not known, for example, why the USS Liberty, an intelligence-gathering ship, was allowed to linger so close to the war zone, or why Israel was not informed of its presence in the area. Analysts said however that while its original mission remains murky, it was now evident that the ship was not sent to spy on Israel since the bulk of linguists on board spoke Arabic or Russian and the ship had no Hebrew translators to monitor Israeli communications in real time.

The most significant documents, transcripts of tapes of communications between an Israeli air controller and helicopter pilots sent to rescue the wounded from the attack, were released last July.

Those intercepts showed that the Israeli rescue pilots first identified the ship as Egyptian and gradually realized, after spotting a US flag, that the ship was American.

"A CIA memo of June 13 reported they had no intercepts from the attacking planes and torpedo boats, but that the helicopter pilots' communication left little doubt that the Israelis had failed to identify the Liberty as a US ship," said Harriet Schwar, editor of the newly released volume.

"A follow-up CIA memo on June 21st noted that the Liberty had been identified prior to the attacks but concluded that the Israelis were not aware at the time of the attack that they were attacking a US ship. It concluded that the attack was not made in malice, but was by mistake, representing gross negligence. The Defense Intelligence Agency reached a similar conclusion," Schwar added.

David Hatch, the National Security Agency Historian, said of the intercepted communications of the rescue pilots: "While falling short of proof, the intercepts to me suggest strongly the Israeli attackers did not know they were aiming deadly fire at a vessel belonging to the United States. The intercepted communications between the air controller at Hatzor and helicopters dispatched in the wake of the attack show a progressive reversal of perception on their part."

Included on the panel was James Bamford, an investigative journalist, who has written that Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty spy ship. Jay Cristol, a Miami-based judge who has written a book arguing that the attack was a mistake was also present, as was Michel Oren, author of a book on the Six Day War.

Bamford stood by his assertion that Israel had deliberately attacked the ship and that the US and Israel had orchestrated a "big cover up."

He read from a recent declaration by Ward Boston, who served as senior legal counsel for the Navy's Court of Inquiry into the Liberty attack. That Court concluded there was insufficient information to make a judgment about why Israel attacked the ship.

In his affidavit, Boston says, he and the Court were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy's investigation, and that both he and the Court's president, Admiral Isaac Kidd, "believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire
crew."

"I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of mistaken identity. In particular the recent publication of Jay Cristol's book, "The Liberty Incident," twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack," Boston says.

Cristol's presentation for the Liberty panel was prepared in conjunction with Ernest Castle, the United States Naval Attache' at the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv in June 1967, who received the first report of the attack from Israel and advised the US, and John Hadden who was then the CIA Chief of Station in Tel Aviv. Both Castle and Hadden agree that the attack on the Liberty was a mistake.

Michael Oren, in his presentation, reviewed some of the mistakes Israel had made during the Liberty attack.

Earlier in the morning of June 8, the Israelis had surveyed and identified a ship in the area as the USS Liberty. A neutral green marker was placed on a model to represent the Liberty's position. Two hours later, the marker was removed since the ship's position would have changed by then and a new
senior Israeli official came on duty who was not informed of the Liberty's presence in the area, Oren explained.

The removal of the marker, a miscalculation of the speed at which the Liberty was traveling that would have indicated it was not a warship, and a breakdown in communication between the Israeli Navy and Army were all Israeli errors that contributed to orders to attack the ship.

The former Naval attache, Castle, said after the panel that he knew personally the Israeli official who had removed the marker and that it had ruined him" professionally and personally. The Israelis had no motive to attack the ship, he added.

The panel, which was open to the public, became raucous at times when survivors of the Liberty attack and a relative of a sailor killed in the incident yelled out to protest that the panel included two people who represented Israel's position, while survivors were not invited to participate.

One petty officer from the Liberty attempted to question Oren's credentials, saying someone who would have been "in diapers" at the time of the attack could not effectively analyze the incident. Others slammed Oren for being Israeli and suggested he could therefore not be impartial.

Link: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1073881745637
_____

The AFP's story is:

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A State Department conference failed to quell the raging controversy over Israel's attack on a US spy ship during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, as an expert panel was unable to agree whether the strike was intentional.

All but one of four panelists said they either accepted or tended to accept Israel's stated explanation -- that the attack on the USS Liberty had been a case of tragic misidentification and an accident.

A senior State Department official said Washington had not changed its initial, nearly 35-year-old assessment that the attack was the result of "gross negligence" on the part of the Israeli military, but not an intentionally hostile act against the United States.

But survivors and families of victims of the incident, many of whom believe Israel deliberately attacked the ship, angrily charged the State Department with helping cover up Israel's role.

Controversy has raged for years over the June 8, 1967, attack on the Liberty, a US signals intelligence ship, in international waters off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli jets and torpedo boats struck the ship, killing 34 US sailors and wounding 171.

Israel maintains that its forces mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian warship, but many dispute the Israeli account and demand a new investigation of the sinking.

The senior State Department official said the panel, part of a two-day conference on the 1967 war, had not intended to re-evaluate long-standing US acceptance of the Israeli explanation.

"In many respects, I think this is kind of a classic binational case of Murphy's Law: everything that could possibly go wrong on either side did," the official told reporters after the panel adjourned.

The official said nothing presented in new documents released Monday as part of the US diplomatic history of the 1967 war had changed the evaluation of Israel's explanation at the time.

"The unprovoked attack on the Liberty constitutes a flagrant act of gross negligence for which the Israeli government should be held completely responsible," the official quoted the US conclusion as saying.

However, that official and others, all of whom participated in the conference, admitted it was unlikely the panel had closed the matter or stemmed any of the controversy surrounding the case.

"I don't know if we settled anything, but I think perhaps we've shed a little light on different aspects of this question," Marc Susser, the State Department historian, told the conference.

One leading skeptic of the Israeli explanation is James Bamford, the author of several books on US intelligence.

Bamford, who repeated his call for a new investigation into the incident, argues that the Israelis intentionally sunk the Liberty to cover up a massacre of Egyptian prisoners of war on the Sinai.

Then US president Lyndon Johnson's administration hid the facts to avoid harming ties with Israel, Bramford claims.

Bamford urged in a 2001 book that intelligence data from a US spy plane in the area be released to shed light on the attack.

David Hatch, technical director for the Center for Cryptologic History, said at least some of those intercepts, released by the ultra-secret National Security Agency last year, indicated that the Israelis had not deliberately targeted a US vessel.

"While falling short of proof, the intercepts to me suggest strongly that the Israeli attackers did not know they were aiming deadly fire at a vessel belonging to the United States," Hatch told the panel.

The senior State Department official agreed with that analysis, although he allowed that there were still "some documents that could not be declassified" for the conference.

The conference also heard from Michael Oren, an Israeli historian, and Jay Cristol, a federal judge, both of whom have published investigations into the incident that have supported the Israeli explanation.

The panelists and their conclusions clearly irritated some in the audience, who appeared to believe that the United States was letting Israel -- which paid 12 million dollars in compensation afterwards -- get away with murder.

"There have been so many half-truths and misstatements made up here today," Liberty survivor Joseph Lentini said angrily before being cut-off by Susser.

"Let's hear from another survivor, one more survivor, two Israelis and one survivor," protested an unidentified man when Susser tried to end the question and answer period. "One more survivor has the right to talk."

"You're trying to whitewash it."

Link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040112/pl_afp/mideast_us_israel_040112233236
_____

Claims, such as Bamford's, that we deliberately attacked the USS Liberty to cover up an alleged massacre of Egyptian POWs in the Sinai are mendacious, ludicrous and border on the anti-Semitic (in addition to having no basis other than pure speculation or Arab propaganda). Claims that we deliberately attacked the USS Liberty in order to cover our intentions to attack Syrian forces on the Golan Heights are also ludicrous. That we were going to attack the Syrians was no secret. That Syria had already committed acts of war by shelling Israeli civilian communities well inside the 1949 armistice line is no secret. And that Sinai is a helluva long way from the Golan Heights is also not a secret. The biggest hole in the claims of those who insist (in the face of how many US investigations & inquiries? http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/liberty2.html) that we deliberately attacked the USS Liberty is, and continues to be, motive. We had everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so. But those have ulterior motives and/or whose emotions have got the better of their reason will not let the matter rest & probably never will. (Anyone who actually believes that the US deliberately and with malice aforethought bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade is dismissed, and rightly so, as either badly misinformed, a fool, a fanatic or someone with an ulterior axe to grind.)

BTW, Michael Oren, mentioned in both of the above articles, has written the following: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html.

Be well!

ssv (a reserve medic, with the rank of sergeant, in the IDF reserves) :wave:
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

The other whoppingly large hole in the claims of those who claim that we deliberately attacked the USS Liberty is that it necessarily assumes that a fairly large number of Israelis must have been in on the conspiracy and cover-up & be faithfully keeping the secret all these years. Anyone who knows Israel at all knows that this patently impossible! Israelis can't keep a secret for five minutes let alone keep one for 36 years! Whenever anyone in Israeli officialdom does something that is, or should be, kept secret, it's in the Israeli newspapers & on TV within 24 hours (usually less)! Keep a secret this big for 36 years??!! In this country??!! ROFLMAO!

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Covenant Heart

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In under-grad days, I took a number of upper-level courses in military and strategic studies. The class (8 or 10 students) had a number of professional soldiers including a German marine and a guy with the British SAS. On one of many occasions in which we discussed Middle East politics, the USS Liberty was raised. As ever, the "why" and "how could they NOT know" questions were raised. They were raised and then answered very matter-of-factly with words to this effect. "Of course the United States was interested; but their ship just got too close, the Israelis sent a message–that’s all."

There was no blame, no censure, no rationalizing or theorizing. And conspiracy theory certainly was not raised (responses to crises can do more to fuel suspicions than antecedent incidents). One student asked, "but WHY" a second time. To that, the reply was, "had she not been where she was, it wouldn’t have happened–period." So the consensus amounted to, "it doesn’t NEED to be explained; just stay clear." That’s all the answer you need.

I know that IrishJohan will have a problem with this. It will make no sense to others. Everything will be challenged. May I say in their defense that these guys were not callused. That’s just how they saw it. Mind, this conversation has been hosted many times and in many places. Plenty of people have and will continue to disagree. My point is that this is how those particular students and soldiers assessed the incident at that time.

Discussion is difficult. That’s to be expected. It’s political. So nothing will be resolved here. And in a hundred years, it will still be raised. Masters students will write theses on the subject. By then, politics may have changed so that discussion to proceed differently. My guess is that the sooner the politics goes, the more openly it can be addressed. Blessings!

Covenant Heart

http://www.ussliberty.org
http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com
 
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