Remaining a virgin until marriage

[rusmeister]

Virginity isn't something I think to be really proud of or ashamed of.

Your point that all of us are sinners is taken. However, this statement appears to denigrate the particular value Christianity DOES place on virginity. Agreed that we shouldn't be "proud" of it in the sense of vanity. But taken any further than that, and this statement appears to be saying that it doesn't matter at all - quite a (wrong-)heady message for people struggling to be chaste, especially the young and unmarried.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

Then you misunderstand what I'm getting at. Virginity doesn't make us any better than anyone else. When it comes down to it we are all in the same boat, and that is that we are all sinners that have fallen short of God's grace. We can't "one up" somebody else in holiness. I've seen some people that seem to be so proud of their virginity that they go to the point of smugness and arrogence over it. They look down on those that aren't and feel that they are more deserving of Heaven and God's love than someone who isn't. That's what I was meaning when I wrote that some have overvalued virginity and made it into an idol. There are some churches that seem to incourage that kind of thinking too. Then there are those that have such a radical message of purity put into them that they become very inhibited and feel as if they have comprimised their purity or have somehow become "dirty" when they get married and are expected to have sex. That's somewhat the message that I got when I was young but now I look at that as being misguided. Both of those messages give virginity more value than it should have and will cause problems later on. I'm not married, never have been, so I haven't gone there yet but it doesn't make me more holy or more deserving of Heaven than anyone else. I think that a good message to send about virginity is that when you aren't married it serves you greatly and it is the state you want to be in and you should rejoice in it, but don't let it become something that makes you feel better than others or makes you look down on others because you might be and they aren't. That's the pride thing that I meant. I think it does matter, but we can't let ourselves walk around thinking "I'm so much better than you because I'm a virgin and you aren't." That kind of attitude is what I meant was wrong.

 

[rusmeister]

Then you misunderstand what I'm getting at. Virginity doesn't make us any better than anyone else. When it comes down to it we are all in the same boat, and that is that we are all sinners that have fallen short of God's grace. We can't "one up" somebody else in holiness. I've seen some people that seem to be so proud of their virginity that they go to the point of smugness and arrogence over it. They look down on those that aren't and feel that they are more deserving of Heaven and God's love than someone who isn't. That's what I was meaning when I wrote that some have overvalued virginity and made it into an idol. There are some churches that seem to incourage that kind of thinking too. Then there are those that have such a radical message of purity put into them that they become very inhibited and feel as if they have comprimised their purity or have somehow become "dirty" when they get married and are expected to have sex. That's somewhat the message that I got when I was young but now I look at that as being misguided. Both of those messages give virginity more value than it should have and will cause problems later on. I'm not married, never have been, so I haven't gone there yet but it doesn't make me more holy or more deserving of Heaven than anyone else. I think that a good message to send about virginity is that when you aren't married it serves you greatly and it is the state you want to be in and you should rejoice in it, but don't let it become something that makes you feel better than others or makes you look down on others because you might be and they aren't. That's the pride thing that I meant. I think it does matter, but we can't let ourselves walk around thinking "I'm so much better than you because I'm a virgin and you aren't." That kind of attitude is what I meant was wrong.

Don't want to quibble over things we actually agree on.
I actually agreed with you:

Your point that all of us are sinners is taken.

No argument on using virginity to be "holier than thou".

I was speaking only to the possible devaluation of virginity - to say that it is something that is not of value, that it doesn't matter. Some of your statements appeared to be skirting that.

give virginity more value than it should have

I don't think we can quantify its value. It is clearly a desirable state spiritually (although one that many young people feel a strong desire to get out of). If we can agree that it IS a good thing, perhaps we can wrap this point up.

 

[cowboysfan1970]

Of course it's a good thing. You would have to know my background to understand why I posted that about virginity becoming an idol. I was raised with some very strict beliefs about things like that. What I really mean about virginity being overvalued is that some can do that through what they have been taught about it. These are people that have basically been taught that when they have sex even with their spouse that they have lost some purity. When they get married and the time comes they either can't or don't want to let their virginity go. What they miss is that when you aren't married being a virgin is good and what you want to be but when you get married it's served its purpose and it's now time to cast it aside.

 

[rusmeister]

Understood and reasonable. But if they get married in an Orthodox church, then they get read the riot act on the sanctity of marriage and the bed undefiled, and on the equivalency of the sacrifice of self in marriage to the monastic life, so those strange, un-Orthodox ideas should be dispelled.

 

[Aloha Joe]

If you are honored for resisting temptation, let the honor come from others. Anytime we exmaine ourselves, and conclude we're more pious for any reason than others, whom we see have sinned, we sin by our pride.

My priest always tells me, that when I judge others, or think about the sins of others, it's because I've either already committed the same sin, and recognize it for that reason, or I'm about to fall into the same sin. He always gives great examples of saints who've worked to hide the sins of others, rather than praise themselves for virtue, but I don't remember any specific stories right now.

You are worthy of honor for your abstainence, but no doubt you've sullied yourself with enough other sins to make a sailor blush. Try to meditate on this, to obtain godly humility. I recognize pride, because I'm guilty of it continually. Lord have mercy.

Basil

Quoted for troof.

I've got a few years on the OP, and I too have been blessed by God's grace not to have "gone there" (don't worry, Mom, you'll get a grandkid eventually). I bristle, though, at the use of the term "pure" to describe those who have made this choice; I'm quite well-defiled enough by my sins to know how antonymous that word is with my spiritual state. I know far too many "non-virgins" purer than I--people who display a love, kindness, humility, patience and generosity which bring tears to my eyes, and which I can only hope to match by my life's end.

My sins are innumerable (one perhaps being a judgment of the OP--forgive me), and dealing with them will take a life time; questioning why others don't remain virgins (the answer's rather apparent to my own raging libido) seems inappropriate, and a steep, frictionless slope to that sin which the Scriptures repeatedly call an abomination: pride.

Not that I know anything about pride--I'm the humblest person I know!

 

[rusmeister]

This for me is really odd - the idea that the spiritual grace and value attached to virginity should make one less sinful in the eyes of God. I just don't get it, it's not Orthodox, I haven't seen anyone argue that position and subsequently don't get the ire or objections that people make to that idea. It's as if I said "Murder is evil" and people objected as if I were saying that all killing is necessarily evil (and thus condemning soldiers, for example).

The extreme and opposite errors are, as has been pointed out, thinking that virginity is a badge of superiority vs thinking that it makes no difference at all whether one retains one's virginity or not.

In short,
1)Virginity IS a good thing, just as marriage is
2)It doesn't make you "better" than others, but it is a valued state to be in. (not to be confused with "Virginia" )

 

[Aloha Joe]

This for me is really odd - the idea that the spiritual grace and value attached to virginity should make one less sinful in the eyes of God. I just don't get it, it's not Orthodox, I haven't seen anyone argue that position and subsequently don't get the ire or objections that people make to that idea.

Perhaps I perceived (misperceived?) a more prominent note of self-congratulation, of moral "compare and contrast", in the original post than did you, sir. While no one argued that "virginity makes one less sinful" in quite those words, the OP did ask if there was anything wrong with being "proud of [her] purity". Virginity before marriage is of course wonderful and right, which is why I've made that same choice--but it does not provide a "purity", in my mind, of which to be proud. Is not purity defined by so much more than that choice?

Also imbedded in the OP's question was the admission of pride. Should one be proud of one's virginity ("purity")? Should one be proud at all? I'm inclined to say "no, one shouldn't". Pride and self-congratulation are better replaced with humility (of which I need much more) and deep gratefulness (also lacking, thenkyewverymuch) for God's grace and protection in this area.

Perhaps I sound (am?) too severe or judgmental, and if that's the case, I ask forgiveness. Perhaps it's because I'm aware of my own pride regarding the issue (I've learned, often the painful way, that I have very little reason to be proud of "my" righteousness), aware of my own ability to mask self-righteous pride as a humble lament, simply to afford me the opportunity to toot my horn undetected (have I done so in these posts?).

To answer the OP's question regarding why more people don't remain virgins until marriage:

1) Sex feels good-to-awesome.
2) The reproductive drive is a powerfully imbedded biological (near-) imperative.
3) Sex (inappropriately and incompletely, if premarital) fills a hunger for companionship, affection and intimacy in a way that other interactions do not.
4) Popular culture is an effective enabler.
5) Outside of the context of a sincere Christian faith, there is little philosophical imperative to resist biology.

King David, who had no shortage of wives and concubines, killed an innocent man to sate his appetite--that pesky libido can pack a mean punch.

I'm a bit tired, so it's very possible I'm being a jerk without knowing it--I trust you'll kindly let me know if that's the case

 

[cowboysfan1970]

In short,
1)Virginity IS a good thing, just as marriage is
2)It doesn't make you "better" than others, but it is a valued state to be in. (not to be confused with "Virginia" )

That's basically how I was trying to put it.

 

[Kristos]

did somebody order those plaques yet?

 

[Dewi Sant]

Good post Rusmeister.

As for Virginia, what could be more lovely than living in a state which not only honours Virginity but also HRH Queen Elizabeth I?

It does sicken me that people seem to presume that Queen Elizabeth didn't die a virgin, assuming somehow that everyone must lose thier virginity...maybe it's just the people I know, but there does seem to be amazing doubt in peoples minds that life-long virginity isn't possible, even in the monastery .
I have three late great aunts however which prove their theories wrong, living as three virgin sisters, unmarried in the same house till death.


I suppose that in a society which believes it depends on money for entertainment, sex seems to be the cheapest thrill.


Lord Have Mercy!