Religious Fatalism

[nill]

You really ought to familiarize yourself with what you are arguing against if it so important to you.

Amen. This is "ask a Calvinist," MercyBurst, not "argue a Calvinist." Has it even been made clear to you yet that you don't actually know what you think you're arguing against? Let go of your pride! Maybe you're wrong, you know! Will you choose to let God move you, or will you rebel?

;-)

 

[JimfromOhio]

By asking in His name, seeking, knocking. Especially the asking part, I provide a series of links:

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Ask Matt 21:22, Mark 11:24, Luke 11:9,10, Luke 18:1, John 14:13, John 15:7, John 16:23, 1st John 3:22
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

There are plenty of verses about asking, and none of them requires a previous election. I say a person is elect after they are saved, not before. God knew who would be saved before they got saved, but they can not claim the name of christ and His righteousness until after they are saved.

So.. nothing can revive a dead spirit other than seek and ask? Forgetting the Holy Spirit?

 

[JimfromOhio]

The reformed group is quite small isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Presbyterian_Church_of_North_America




I've joined at least three different churches that had more members than all of RPCNA combined!!!! One was independent baptist, one was independent non-denominational, and one was a Christian Church. The Christian Church had almost twice as many members as all the RPCNA combined.

I notice you denomination doesn't use music instruments (sort of like the primitive baptists).

I'm a praise worship musician that plays guitar, so y'all can count me out.

I do sympathize with your position on morality issues however.

But you don't know the history why PCA was created to break away from PCUSA? It appears you don't fully understand all of the denominations.

 

[bradfordl]

I only repented once. I ask for forgiveness everyday, but only once did I turn away from a life that was dead in trespasses and sins. The Holy Spirit has been with me since then.

A distinction without a difference. But its a cute little rejoinder.

As a praise musician it is my goal to be transparant and to pour out the holy spirit upon our congregation. I'd probably prefer to be unseen by the congregation anyway. I'm a shy kind of guy.

Good to hear. Maybe you should suggest that to your "Praise Team Leader" or whatever they call the person in charge. That's been my biggest problem with "praise teams". They tend to be ego boosting avenues rather than God-glorifying efforts. Have a little problem with you thinking you "pour out the Holy Spirit" on anyone. Somebody already has that job, and He might not like you thinking you can take it away from Him.

Brad

 

[MercyBurst]

Maybe you should suggest that to your "Praise Team Leader" or whatever they call the person in charge.

We're not on stage to "perform." If somebody wants a perfect symphony they can go elsewhere.

That's been my biggest problem with "praise teams".

That's a bifg problem with musicians in general, and some pastors too.

They tend to be ego boosting avenues rather than God-glorifying efforts.

Have a little problem with you thinking you "pour out the Holy Spirit" on anyone.

He gave us a light. We can let His light shine, can't we?

Somebody already has that job, and He might not like you thinking you can take it away from Him.

Brad

I'm just a conduit, that's all. That's the way it should be anyhow. It's the same way with preaching.

The power is His, and it is shared through song, prayer, worship, and reading His word.

 

[MercyBurst]

So.. nothing can revive a dead spirit other than seek and ask? Forgetting the Holy Spirit?

Not at all. I asked the Holy Spirit.

Do you think God will save somebody that doesn't want to be saved? You'll tell me nobody can resist His call. Satan and 1/3 of the angels in heaven resisted God in His very presense. We aren't in God's presense, yet you say the "elect" are more compelled than they were. The elect haven't even seen God yet. Satan has.

I've got a question for you. Do you love God? Isn't love a voluntary thing? Do you think satan loved God? Don't you think God knew about that?

Don't you think God wants people that genuinely love Him rather than smothering them to death with His sovereign will?

Satan wants to rule by forcing people to do everything his way. Satan tells God that nobody will love Him. Satan says his way is right, where everyone is forced to do things his way. Satan tells God all the believers are really phonies that just love God because of what God has blessed them with. I know this by reading the book of Job. Satan hates genuine love. Genuine love is what Jesus showed on the cross. Genuine love is unconditional. Genuine love requires no pre-requisite condition like "election", only a willing heart. This is why calvinism bothers me. There's no love in it -- only God's iron-fisted will.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Not at all. I asked the Holy Spirit.

Do you think God will save somebody that doesn't want to be saved? You'll tell me nobody can resist His call. Satan and 1/3 of the angels in heaven resisted God in His very presense. We aren't in God's presense, yet you say the "elect" are more compelled than they were. The elect haven't even seen God yet. Satan has.

I've got a question for you. Do you love God? Isn't love a voluntary thing? Do you think satan loved God? Don't you think God knew about that?

Don't you think God wants people that genuinely love Him rather than smothering them to death with His sovereign will?

Satan wants to rule by forcing people to do everything his way. Satan tells God that nobody will love Him. Satan says his way is right, where everyone is forced to do things his way. Satan tells God all the believers are really phonies that just love God because of what God has blessed them with. I know this by reading the book of Job. Satan hates genuine love. Genuine love is what Jesus showed on the cross. Genuine love is unconditional. Genuine love requires no pre-requisite condition like "election", only a willing heart. This is why calvinism bothers me. There's no love in it -- only God's iron-fisted will.

How can a spiritually dead person ask for the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit is required to quicken a dead person to be alive?

 

[heymikey80]

The big difference is that you have to be elect before you can be saved according to calvinist teaching, and this was a stumbling block for some people that became believers like myself. I was a hell bound sinner and I knew it. After God saved me, I became elect.

So God didn't choose you until after you chose God? Isn't that counter to what God Himself said? "You did not choose Me, but I chose you ...."

Calvinists clearly see that your awareness of your salvation couldn't possibly occur until you've been reborn by the Spirit of God. Again, it goes without saying. You couldn't in fact be aware of anything other than that you're Hell-bound. The thought that you could find out your election when the Spirit has not moved on you ... is rather strange.

So your awareness of your election has reached you in your faith. Great! God chose you in Jesus from before the foundation of the world. Now if you read Paul plainly you know it was His intent all along. But even if you reject such a clear statement by Paul, it doesn't affect your salvation. God saves all those who rely on Christ Jesus. Not just those who get a passing grade on a theology exam (and not even all those who get a passing grade).

Nobody should be seeking a passing grade -- but a Passing Grace. The kind of Grace that Passed Over the Israeli houses in Egypt.

It's fine to reject those a doctrine that's poorly understood. But to toss a Christian doctrine because non-Christians believe something wrong about it -- is that even sane, much less reasonable? Who should I be listening to for doctrines about God? God? Or non-Christians?

In the fundamentalist view, all you have to be is a sinner that is ready to repent and accept Jesus. ALL believers meet that condition. Even a 6 year old can understand it.

Calvinism does embrace the fundamentals of the Gospel.

God certainly desires nothing more than for those who are perishing and rushing toward death to return to the way of safety. This is why the gospel is today proclaimed throughout the world, for God wished to testify to all the ages that he is greatly inclined to pity. Calvin, Commentaries, Ez 18:23
​

In point of fact a Calvinist church is a church embracing the fundamentals. It doesn't make a system out of them -- it doesn't make a fundamentalism out of them. But if fundamentalists really unified around the fundamentals and not their own system against such teachings, then Calvinist churches must be embraced as brothers.

 

[MercyBurst]

So God didn't choose you until after you chose God? Isn't that counter to what God Himself said? "You did not choose Me, but I chose you ...."

I've already answered this one but I'll repeat from a previous post.

Salvation is a mutual decision where God says yes, and the believer says yes. God said yes first, at the cross long before I was ever born.

Love is a mutual decision where both parties say yes. Now that I am alive I said yes to Christ and the promises He made 2000 years ago.

Love = Decision

Salvation = Love

therefore

Salvation = Decision

If salvation is not a decision then I never ever chose to love God, when in fact I know for a FACT that I did chose to love God. He always loved me.

I can not please God unlesss I first beleive Him. Therefore the logical relationship extends even further:

Faith = Love = Salvation = Decision

And for the final logical analysis:

1 John 4:8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God = Love

and again in Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Deut 6:5, Deut 10:12 Mark 12:30 Luke 10:27
38 This is the first and great commandment.
great 1st Cor 13:13
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Thou Lev 19:18, Matt 5:43, Matt 19:19, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Rom 13:9, Gal 5:14, Jam 2:8
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I might add that our salvation hangs upon God's love as well. Without God's love there would be no grace.

I really believe salvation should focus on God's LOVE rather than on OUR own election -- that sounds so braggadocia.

Calvinists clearly see that your awareness of your salvation couldn't possibly occur until you've been reborn by the Spirit of God. Again, it goes without saying. You couldn't in fact be aware of anything other than that you're Hell-bound.

I was hellbound, I agree. If I was predestinated in the calvinist sense, then I wasn't hellbound prior to being saved. But I argue most clearly that I was hellbound and I knew it was coming for me as an ABSOLUTE FACT. This is why I don't believe in prior election in the calvinistic sense. I believe it after I was saved, but I was on the road to hell, no question about it.

God did 100% of the saving, because I asked Him to. I didn't command God to save me, I didn't tell Him to kiss my butt, I didn't swear at Him or curse Him, I just humbly asked Him to please save me. You tell me God will save the elect by forcing His will all over them. I do not beleive this. God wants people that genuinely love Him, not pre-programmed robots.

 

[MercyBurst]

It's fine to reject those a doctrine that's poorly understood. But to toss a Christian doctrine because non-Christians believe something wrong about it -- is that even sane, much less reasonable? Who should I be listening to for doctrines about God? God? Or non-Christians?

If any doctrine diminisihes God's love or God's righteousness then I have some issues with it.

Calvinism force-feeds God's will on the believer. Dominance is not love.

Universalism says everyone is going to heaven. Sin is not righteousness.

 

[bradfordl]

Troll alert!

 

[MercyBurst]

Troll alert!

Talking about God's love sends them running.

 

[MercyBurst]

Amen. This is "ask a Calvinist," MercyBurst, not "argue a Calvinist." Has it even been made clear to you yet that you don't actually know what you think you're arguing against? Let go of your pride! Maybe you're wrong, you know! Will you choose to let God move you, or will you rebel?

;-)

I'm asking, and all I get is the same old stuff about election.

So tell me, are you allowed to love God? Love IS a decision. I haven't heard anyone say otherwise.

Can genuine love exist without free will? I am inclined to believe real love can not exist without free will. Can anyone clarify this?

 

[nill]

I'm asking, and all I get is the same old stuff about election.

So tell me, are you allowed to love God? Love IS a decision. I haven't heard anyone say otherwise.

Can genuine love exist without free will? I am inclined to believe real love can not exist without free will. Can anyone clarify this?

No, actually, MercyBurst, you're not asking, and what you are getting, you're constantly reinterpreting, "Oh, everything Calvinists talk about must be related to election!" I can't speak for everybody, but does it get on my nerves? Yes.

What you haven't heard or have heard is obviously irrelevant to you, because, as you've demonstrated, once you are inclined to believe whatever you want, you're not willing to be convinced otherwise. For goodness' sake, you're not even willing to be corrected on something you're wrong about and don't understand (which has, once again, been demonstrated within just this thread).

For instance: "So tell me." Don't bring your smart-aleck attitude to questions, MercyBurst. You are obviously not here to learn about what the doctrines of grace actually are and instead are here to rant and rave about how much you despise Calvinism in--surprise!--the Calvinism forum!

Puh, "Talking about God's love sends them running." More accusations. More trolling. Your bridge is lonely. It's waiting for you.

 

[MercyBurst]

No, actually, MercyBurst, you're not asking, and what you are getting, you're constantly reinterpreting, "Oh, everything Calvinists talk about must be related to election!" I can't speak for everybody, but does it get on my nerves? Yes.

What you haven't heard or have heard is obviously irrelevant to you, because, as you've demonstrated, once you are inclined to believe whatever you want, you're not willing to be convinced otherwise. For goodness' sake, you're not even willing to be corrected on something you're wrong about and don't understand (which has, once again, been demonstrated within just this thread).

For instance: "So tell me." Don't bring your smart-aleck attitude to questions, MercyBurst. You are obviously not here to learn about what the doctrines of grace actually are and instead are here to rant and rave about how much you despise Calvinism in--surprise!--the Calvinism forum!

Puh, "Talking about God's love sends them running." More accusations. More trolling. Your bridge is lonely. It's waiting for you.

An empty, dieing presbyterian church is a lonely place too. It waits for you as well.

Ok, you aren't telling me about God's love, but you are using the "T" word.

So I am coming to a final conclusion that you just reinforced: Calvinist doctrine does not truely allow me to love God, because Love requires a choice by me that I am not allowed to have because God is like an iron-fisted dictator with His own will. Ok I understand it now. Y'all have educated me. Thanks everyone and Goodbye.

Oh, and by the way. Someone on the baptist forum requested that I come over here and ask a calvinist. So I did.

 

[nill]

An empty, dieing presbyterian church is a lonely place too. It waits for you as well.

Ok, you aren't telling me about God's love, but you are using the "T" word.

So I am coming to a final conclusion that you just reinforced: Calvinist doctrine does not truely allow me to love God, because Love requires a choice by me that I am not allowed to have because God is like an iron-fisted dictator with His own will. Ok I understand it now. Y'all have educated me. Thanks everyone and Goodbye.

Oh, and by the way. Someone on the baptist forum requested that I come over here and ask a calvinist. So I did.

It's a conclusion you already had when you posted and decided wouldn't change. Don't play the victim of big, bad, mean, ol' Calvinists when you don't show any interest in learning. You know you wouldn't tolerate the same thing if anyone else came over to the fundamentalist forum and pretended to ask a question with the sole intent of dismissing all your beliefs and telling you how wrong you are and how you are a dying church without the gospel, yadda yadda yadda.

 

[MercyBurst]

It's a conclusion you already had when you posted and decided wouldn't change. Don't play the victim of big, bad, mean, ol' Calvinists when you don't show any interest in learning. You know you wouldn't tolerate the same thing if anyone else came over to the fundamentalist forum and pretended to ask a question with the sole intent of dismissing all your beliefs and telling you how wrong you are and how you are a dying church without the gospel, yadda yadda yadda.

Sounds like an old lady.

 

[nill]

Sounds like an old lady.

...okay?

 

[bradfordl]

54 years old and still behaving like an adolescent. May be an indication as to why doctrines any more complicated than "Jesus Loves Me" seem to be outside of your grasp. Keep drinking milk, friend.

But as for loving God, read this:

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

If you were able, before any intervention by the Holy Spirit, to decide to love God, why then did the He need to shed it abroad in your heart? And this:

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Love is volitional, yes... a decision. But unless and until a heart is changed from stone to flesh, it cannot decide to love God. A stone does not have the capacity to love. Where you err is that you don't yet acknowledge the depth of your depravity prior to salvation. You still assume that you weren't such a bad guy, and that all unsaved folks aren't so bad; at least not so bad that they can't choose to love. Some day you will understand, because nothing that is hidden will not be exposed, that the love decisions you thought yourself and unsaved humanity capable of was never really love. Then you'll accept the truth of God's giving you the ability to love Him before you could. The unsaved love only themselves and their idols. Having hearts of stone, their wills are bereft of the ability to choose the good and eschew the evil, they are incapable of loving another human, much less God.

So, explain to us how the love of God is evident in your childish attacks on brethren here. You claim to have "decided" to love God, and if that's true, then this would be true as well:

1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Is playing the roll of argumentative and insulting troll an act of love? You're not here to learn anything, nor to help anybody, just to thumb your nose at folks who hold to a biblical theology that you blame for your youthful rejection of the Gospel.

Now that's Christian behaviour, right? To blame someone or something besides yourself for your own sin? Rejecting the Gospel at age 14 was your sin, not anyone elses. Your placing of blame elswhere is just another symptom of your unwillingness to accept your own total depravity. Oh, you were pretty bad, but not so bad that you couldn't "decide" to ask Christ to save you, not so bad that you couldn't "decide" to love God, and not so bad that you couldn't "decide" to accept the offer of the Gospel. Those were pretty impressive decisions to make, don't you think? Especially for a man with a heart of stone?

You seem to be quite impressed with yourself; made all those commendable decisions without any interference from God; 54 year-old "praise band" musician (still have that pony-tail?); wannabe troll. Do you even see the caricature you present?

Sir, I'm of the belief that you just don't have the tools in the shed to do the job you've set out to accomplish here, and it may be better for your self-esteem to go a-trolling elsewhere.

SDG,

Brad

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is "Ask a Calvinist", not "Debate a Calvinist".