Religious Fatalism

[MercyBurst]

What's the difference between Calvinism and fatalist philosophy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

 

[heymikey80]

What's the difference between Calvinism and fatalist philosophy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

Fatalism is the view that the human will doesn't matter, but the person is set on a course outside the control of his choices.

Predestination is the view that God foreordains the person to salvation, and by that to desire and choose Christ.

Fatalism neglects the will of man. Calvin's Predestination includes the will of man, but includes it within the underlying power of God. And so salvation does not originate in the heart of man, it enters the heart of man through the Spirit of God.

Plenty of people have accused Calvinism of meaning God initiates salvation, and not the person. Yes, God initiates and completes salvation in us. But to accuse Calvinism of fatalism as removing the involvement of people in their own salvation is absurd.

Boettner has a number of useful responses to this, because fatalism can be alleged on myriad grounds. I actually prefer to start at a particular answer and work my way outward -- "Motives to Exertion" would be where I'd start.

Calvinism does have some upsetting changes in concepts for people coming from an "I started it" version of Christianity. Predestination is a God's-eye view of human conversion. It's bound to be an upset. But most of the conclusions of those outside Calvinism are just wrong, and actually maliciously so. That's why the Synod of Dordt stated,

... it clearly appears that those of whom one could hardly expect it have shown no truth, equity, and charity at all in wishing to make the public believe:

• that the teaching of the Reformed churches on predestination and on the points associated with it by its very nature and tendency draws the minds of people away from all godliness and religion, is an opiate of the flesh and the devil, and is a stronghold of Satan where he lies in wait for all people, wounds most of them, and fatally pierces many of them with the arrows of both despair and self-assurance;
• that this teaching makes God the author of sin, unjust, a tyrant, and a hypocrite; and is nothing but a refurbished Stoicism, Manicheism, Libertinism, and Mohammedanism;
• that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
• that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness; that many infant children of believers are snatched in their innocence from their mothers' breasts and cruelly cast into hell so that neither the blood of Christ nor their baptism nor the prayers of the church at their baptism can be of any use to them; and very many other slanderous accusations of this kind which the Reformed churches not only disavow but even denounce with their whole heart.

Therefore this Synod of Dordt in the name of the Lord pleads with all who devoutly call on the name of our Savior Jesus Christ to form their judgment about the faith of the Reformed churches, not on the basis of false accusations gathered from here or there, or even on the basis of the personal statements of a number of ancient and modern authorities--statements which are also often either quoted out of context or misquoted and twisted to convey a different meaning--but on the basis of the churches' own official confessions and of the present explanation of the orthodox teaching which has been endorsed by the unanimous consent of the members of the whole Synod, one and all.
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[MercyBurst]

Plenty of people have accused Calvinism of meaning God initiates salvation, and not the person. Yes, God initiates and completes salvation in us. But to accuse Calvinism of fatalism as removing the involvement of people in their own salvation is absurd.

I believe God "offers" salvation for everyone, but not everyone accepts God's call. "Whosoever will may come", doesn't mean everyone comes, only those that choose to come. God makes His offer to everyone whether they take it or not. Once they come and accept God's will over their own they are predestinated to God's original plan before the universe was created. God's original plan was for man to have fellowship with Him. Adam and Eve (created in perfection) had the option to make a wrong choice (which was sin), and the rest of us (born in sin) are given the option to make the right choice (which is everlasting life in Christ). THis was God's plan from the beginning (for man to have fellowship with God). God never intended for man to go to hell, which is reserved for the devil and his angels. But there is no other alternative for unredeemed humanity.

Therefore this Synod of Dordt in the name of the Lord pleads with all who devoutly call on the name of our Savior Jesus Christ to form their judgment about the faith of the Reformed churches, not on the basis of false accusations gathered from here or there, or even on the basis of the personal statements of a number of ancient and modern authorities

My information is first hand.

I attended a reformed presbyterian for several years of my life. I went through the catachism when I was 14. None of us boys even had a clue what it was for. One of them asked me, and I said, "I guess it makes us more religious." Nobody ever offered the plan of salvation to me. The preacher told me sunday after sunday, "God shall judge the quick from the dead" and "the elect are predestinated to heaven." I guess I never got my elite membership card, huh.

Fortunately I blazed out of that graveyard, and found a real church. I got saved there. Nobody required me to be "elect" first. I came just as I was, and now I am saved. Praise God.

I dumped my Revised Standard Bible with all those watered-down footnotes that tell me Jesus is just "a son of God," you know -- just another ordinary joe, and it had all those disputes about this ancient authority vs. that ancient authority. Now I use a bible that tells me Jesus is Lord. Praise God.

 

[Beoga]

So it honestly looks like you came in here not to ask a serious question but to troll.

 

[nill]

MercyBurst said:

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"I attended a reformed presbyterian for several years of my life. I went through the catachism when I was 14. None of us boys even had a clue what it was for. One of them asked me, and I said, "I guess it makes us more religious." Nobody ever offered the plan of salvation to me. The preacher told me sunday after sunday, "God shall judge the quick from the dead" and "the elect are predestinated to heaven." I guess I never got my elite membership card, huh."

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Catechisms are teaching tools. Do you suppose them now to be evil or useless because Reformed Presbyterians (as well as several other denominations) use them? You surely may not fault a system of doctrine itself for your misunderstanding of the purpose of a catechism.

There is nothing unbiblical about what you seem to base as an accusation against that preacher or the theology of Calvinism: "God shall judge the quick from the dead," is apparently from Acts 10:42, which says, "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead." His use of the words "elect" and "predestinated" are nothing more than synonyms for terms that already appear in clear Biblical language, as in Ephesians 1:5, which says, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." There are, of course, other synonyms, such as calling us "elect," the "church," the "saints," "brothers," "beloved," and so forth.

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"Fortunately I blazed out of that graveyard, and found a real church. I got saved there. Nobody required me to be "elect" first. I came just as I was, and now I am saved. Praise God."

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That is insulting. But do you care that you mar the name of your brothers in Christ? Probably not. Describing the Reformed Presbyterian church simultaneously as without life--what else could you mean but the life of the Spirit of God, right?--and as false--for you found a "real" church, better than that old fake one, right?--apparently comes to you without any difficulty.

And not a surprise, as this is such an easy slander to make and to feel obligated to support, that you would accuse this theology of being elitist, by saying that it somehow requires you to become elect first. That is absurd; if you were shown that it is not true, would you even actually believe, or would you hold on to this accusation and hope it works on people who either are less discerning or already agree with you? You try to counter it by offering the opposing perspective: "I came just as I was, and now I am saved." Allow me to correct at least one of your errors here.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Did you think you could see the kingdom of God before you were born again? How can a person except as he is? And tell me, what were you, MercyBurst? I won't even wait for you to answer, for Scripture speaks so very clearly. This is what you were, and what I was, and we all were, as said by Ephesians 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." We were all by nature the children of wrath.

Yet how do you think you saw the kingdom of God? How do you think you saw your need for a Savior? How do you think you "got saved"? How do you think you were "born again"? Two answers:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved" (Ephesians 2:5).

Answer number one: You were not born because you chose to be born.
Answer number two: You were not made alive because you chose to be made alive.
And a third answer, for free: You have been saved by grace.

Therefore, your accusation that being one of the elect somehow is opposed to "coming just as you are" (which is ambiguous in itself, but oddly loved so dearly by modern evangelical altar-callers) is dishonest and false.

By the way, you need not tag "Praise God" at the end of such declarations of contrast against your previous church experience in your effort to emphasize that Reformed Presbyterians are unable to praise God.

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"I dumped my Revised Standard Bible with all those watered-down footnotes that tell me Jesus is just 'a son of God,' you know -- just another ordinary joe, and it had all those disputes about this ancient authority vs. that ancient authority. Now I use a bible that tells me Jesus is Lord. Praise God."

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Okay, well good for you. I'm supposing you saw the word "Revised" and thought it was close enough to "Reformed" that you thought you could bring yet another accusation against Calvinists, not even understanding that they're not even remotely related. Except for an R, two E's, and a D. But since this has absolutely nothing to do with your supposed "question" regarding fatalism, I can only agree with Beoga by drawing out what your thought process must have been when you posted here:

Step 1: Ask them a question.
Step 2: Forget the question and just tell them they're wrong.
Step 3: Keep guard under my bridge.

Well, that wasn't predictable. It's not like it happens every other day.

 

[MercyBurst]

duplicate post

 

[MercyBurst]

MercyBurst said:"I attended a reformed presbyterian for several years of my life. I went through the catachism when I was 14. None of us boys even had a clue what it was for. One of them asked me, and I said, "I guess it makes us more religious." Nobody ever offered the plan of salvation to me. The preacher told me sunday after sunday, "God shall judge the quick from the dead" and "the elect are predestinated to heaven." I guess I never got my elite membership card, huh."​

Catechisms are teaching tools. Do you suppose them now to be evil or useless because Reformed Presbyterians (as well as several other denominations) use them? You surely may not fault a system of doctrine itself for your misunderstanding of the purpose of a catechism.

I attended the catechism as a 14 year old, and I wasn't the only one that misunderstood it as I have already explained. When my friend Freddie asked me about our catechism "lessons" I said, "Well, I guess this just made us more religious." Yeah, I guess.

There is nothing unbiblical about what you seem to base as an accusation against that preacher or the theology of Calvinism: "God shall judge the quick from the dead," is apparently from Acts 10:42, which says, "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [COLOR=#00e0]to be[/COLOR] the Judge of quick and dead." His use of the words "elect" and "predestinated" are nothing more than synonyms for terms that already appear in clear Biblical language, as in Ephesians 1:5, which says, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." There are, of course, other synonyms, such as calling us "elect," the "church," the "saints," "brothers," "beloved," and so forth.

It sure didn't save me. I guess I just wasn't an elect person in that ritzy social church. Maybe, I just wasn't good enough. Maybe that was it.

"Fortunately I blazed out of that graveyard, and found a real church. I got saved there. Nobody required me to be "elect" first. I came just as I was, and now I am saved. Praise God."

That is insulting.

You'll NEVER KNOW how insulted the devil was. My salvation cut him to the quick.

But do you care that you mar the name of your brothers in Christ? Probably not.

They apparently cared nothing about my salvation. I'm ashamed for them.

Describing the Reformed Presbyterian church simultaneously as without life--what else could you mean but the life of the Spirit of God, right?--and as false--for you found a "real" church, better than that old fake one, right?--apparently comes to you without any difficulty.

I got saved my very first day by "whosoever will", hmmm... If Jesus had a nickname....

And not a surprise, as this is such an easy slander to make and to feel obligated to support, that you would accuse this theology of being elitist, by saying that it somehow requires you to become elect first.

After hearing it preached for so many years, that's the solid impression the preacher gave me. Was he doing it wrong? er, I guess you can blame it all on me for listening as a teenager.

That is absurd; if you were shown that it is not true, would you even actually believe, or would you hold on to this accusation and hope it works on people who either are less discerning or already agree with you?

I sat in the pews for years, but I didn't know the others agreed with me. That's a comforting thought though. Thanks for bringing it up. So I wasn't alone.... Very good point.

You try to counter it by offering the opposing perspective: "I came just as I was, and now I am saved." Allow me to correct at least one of your errors here.

You mean I wasn't saved. How could you know that?

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Did you think you could see the kingdom of God before you were born again?

Nope, I thought I had to be elect -- at least while I was a presby that's what I thought. A fundamentalist sure took care of that little problem for me. I'm glad too. Aren't you glad I got saved?

How can a person except as he is? And tell me, what were you, MercyBurst?

A sinner without hope. That's all I ever was, until somebody showed me "whosoever will."

I won't even wait for you to answer, for Scripture speaks so very clearly. This is what you were, and what I was, and we all were, as said by Ephesians 2:3, "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." We were all by nature the children of wrath.

Yep that was me alright before I got saved. I had that picture.

Yet how do you think you saw the kingdom of God? How do you think you saw your need for a Savior? How do you think you "got saved"? How do you think you were "born again"?

I asked.

Two answers:

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved" (Ephesians 2:5).

Answer number one: You were not born because you chose to be born.

I didn't choose to be a sinner either, but I was, and I was very very tired of being a sinner.

Answer number two: You were not made alive because you chose to be made alive.

Being made alive. Boy that was a great feeling. I just wanted to be dead to tresspasses and sins, yet the Lord completely surprised me with that bonus. I didn't even expect it, but it came with the package -- thank you Lord!!!!!

And a third answer, for free: You have been saved by grace.

I sure wasn't saved by feeling good about myself, that's for certain. I felt really yuck about myself until Jesus cleaned me up.

Therefore, your accusation that being one of the elect somehow is opposed to "coming just as you are" (which is ambiguous in itself, but oddly loved so dearly by modern evangelical altar-callers) is dishonest and false.

It got me saved, and so so many others too. No wonder the soul winning churches are growing, and the presbyterian church has been losing memership so drastically. I hear they've had some big layoffs down there in Birmingham -- and the financial woes too. People aren't giving like they did back in the 60s are they? I'm sorry that church is dieing.

By the way, you need not tag "Praise God" at the end of such declarations of contrast against your previous church experience in your effort to emphasize that Reformed Presbyterians are unable to praise God.

I praise the Lord for saving me. I'm sorry if that offends you.


"I dumped my Revised Standard Bible with all those watered-down footnotes that tell me Jesus is just 'a son of God,' you know -- just another ordinary joe, and it had all those disputes about this ancient authority vs. that ancient authority. Now I use a bible that tells me Jesus is Lord. Praise God."

Okay, well good for you. I'm supposing you saw the word "Revised" and thought it was close enough to "Reformed" that you thought you could bring yet another accusation against Calvinists, not even understanding that they're not even remotely related.

It's the presbyterian bible. Do you have a problem with your own bible?

Except for an R, two E's, and a D. But since this has absolutely nothing to do with your supposed "question" regarding fatalism, I can only agree with Beoga by drawing out what your thought process must have been when you posted here:

Step 1: Ask them a question.
Step 2: Forget the question and just tell them they're wrong.
Step 3: Keep guard under my bridge.

Well, that wasn't predictable. It's not like it happens every other day.

Well I haven't seen a Calvinist that even knows where to start with this one. I haven't seen an answer.... YET. Care to show me one?

 

[hopperace]

Let's be respectful of CF Rules, please.

 

[MercyBurst]

OK. I'm sorry about that. Could someone please answer the OP? thank you.

 

[nill]

Um, no. Stay under your bridge, please.

 

[MercyBurst]

Um, no. Stay under your bridge, please.

I shared my honest experience as a reformed presbyterian, and I am sorry that upsets you. Perhaps it can help you and others understand how the "predestinated elect" preaching comes across to the unsaved. We feel that we can never be good enough to be saved. We feel that we have to be elect before we can be saved. Calvinism is poor public relations to those that want to reach Christ. Calvinism stands in the door like a judgmental pharisee, and this really needs to change.

I have provided honest feedback, and perhaps it can help your denomination before it loses the other half of its remaining members. I hope so.

and Jesus said:

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth

Aren't you glad I got saved? Apparantly not. But you really should be, regardless of what you think about me as a person.

God bless.

 

[heymikey80]

Working quickly, I'm sorry I have a time crunch but I think there are immediate answers we can get into as we go along.

I believe God "offers" salvation for everyone, but not everyone accepts God's call. "Whosoever will may come", doesn't mean everyone comes, only those that choose to come. God makes His offer to everyone whether they take it or not.

Well, there are definitely people who do not receive God's call, but again ... Calvinism indeed has the universal call which not everyone answers.

It's real. People will really be condemned for not answering this call (cf. John 3:18).

Once they come and accept God's will over their own they are predestinated to God's original plan before the universe was created. God's original plan was for man to have fellowship with Him. Adam and Eve (created in perfection) had the option to make a wrong choice (which was sin), and the rest of us (born in sin) are given the option to make the right choice (which is everlasting life in Christ). THis was God's plan from the beginning (for man to have fellowship with God). God never intended for man to go to hell, which is reserved for the devil and his angels. But there is no other alternative for unredeemed humanity.

It just doesn't answer the real statement in Scripture "God predesignated those He loved." They are people God's predesignating, not ideals. The rest I would largely agree with.

My information is first hand.

So's mine. Within the church where I first believed it was largely accepted that whoever answers is saved -- and that's it. No further work or serious effort was made in changing or growing people after they'd been through the "thunk & dunk" of evangelism. Growth stopped. Conflict began. For outcasts like me, the "communion of the saints" was largely superficial. And I couldn't continue with them.

Both views of predestination are untrue: the one you grew up with and the one I grew up with. Predestination is not this idea that God does all the heavy lifting in my life without me. Predestination in Calvin's terms is the heaviest, most intense involvement of God with human lives and human wills, shaping and forming them will all of His abilities to fit them for glory. We're not "in the gilded yacht" riding the storm out. We're feeling the rain and wind and waves, strengthened by the storm, grown to overcome it, given the wisdom to handle it.

I don't doubt your experience in church, either. People confuse predestination for fatalism all the time -- both in opposition and in advocacy. And there are plenty of dead churches on both flanks of Christianity. In Calvinism this same view of predestination -- intense involvement of God and ourselves in our lives -- operates pre-faith.

The idea that we "don't have a message for the unelect" is exactly as ridiculous as a farmer claiming he can tell where the weeds will grow, so he won't plant there. I have no questions about your election, either. Nobody has "elect" tattooed on their foreheads. And formal memorizing -- well, I've never been able to memorize Scripture, much less the catechism. But there are also plenty of fairly uninformative Sunday School lessons as well.

After my experience I was out of the church until I met real Christians -- lots of them, with real Christian hands for tackling real problems in this world. And I had real problems. And they gathered and worked. The result was remarkable. They were all talking about the work of the Spirit in their lives pressing out into the world -- and that they were compelled to follow. They were all connected with Westminster School in Augusta, Georgia. And they were Calvinists, and had no questions about election either.

 

[JimfromOhio]

If God didn't make it happen, it didn't happen. If God wanted it to happen, it would happen. It's not fatalism. It's a confidence in God's providence. God's providence is always that we shouldn't be surprised to find this a mysterious paradox of what happens around the world for His purpose. I say this because Christians cannot walk independently of the Holy Spirit.

In In Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things according to the purpose of His own will." 'Providence" means God’s faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created are going according to His will. He is active in every detail of it. He’s active at every moment. He doesn’t stand back and let things happen because He decides to intervene if something or someone is not going according to His will. He governs the world moment-by-moment through providence, so that everything that happens, every detail of our life occurs by God's divine providence or by God’s express permission. He is in control of everything. Even the bad things that happen to us are circumscribed by a loving providence and God promises to use them all for our ultimate good. There is a verse in the Bible that God promises that there won’t be anything so bad happen to us that we’re not able to bear it. God does everything--He governs everything.” God doesn’t just sit back and wait until He wants to act and then do it through a miracle.” God constantly intervenes in our lives through providence.

I have yet not heard how those who don't like Calvnism explain how a spiritually dead person become alive?

 

[MercyBurst]

Well, there are definitely people who do not receive God's call, but again ... Calvinism indeed has the universal call which not everyone answers.

Are you saying God called but they didn't answer? I can agree with that.

It's real. People will really be condemned for not answering this call (cf. John 3:18).

It just doesn't answer the real statement in Scripture "God predesignated those He loved." They are people God's predesignating, not ideals. The rest I would largely agree with.

For God so loved the whole world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

So's mine. Within the church where I first believed it was largely accepted that whoever answers is saved -- and that's it. No further work or serious effort was made in changing or growing people after they'd been through the "thunk & dunk" of evangelism. Growth stopped. Conflict began. For outcasts like me, the "communion of the saints" was largely superficial. And I couldn't continue with them.

No discipleship, yeah that's not good either. It can happen in any church.

I don't doubt your experience in church, either.

Those people really weren't such bad people. They just didn't do what God commanded, to share the gospel. That's all.

The idea that we "don't have a message for the unelect" is exactly as ridiculous as a farmer claiming he can tell where the weeds will grow, so he won't plant there.

What is the message for the "unelect" and how can anyone know whether they are elect or not? But that's a smokescreen. The real question to ask is how to get right with the Lord. That's the question I asked, and I found the eternal answer.

I have no questions about your election, either. Nobody has "elect" tattooed on their foreheads. And formal memorizing -- well, I've never been able to memorize Scripture, much less the catechism.

I found out I was "elect" after I got saved, just like I found out I was clean after Jesus washed me.

After my experience I was out of the church until I met real Christians -- lots of them, with real Christian hands for tackling real problems in this world. And I had real problems. And they gathered and worked. The result was remarkable. They were all talking about the work of the Spirit in their lives pressing out into the world -- and that they were compelled to follow. They were all connected with Westminster School in Augusta, Georgia. And they were Calvinists, and had no questions about election either.

I have calvinist friends that I have discussed these questions with.

Here it is in a nutshell: When calvinists talk about election it makes the unsaved feel like they aren't good enough to be saved. Some of those unsaved people would reallly really like to be "elect", they'd really like to do it God's way, but they aren't allowed because they aren't "elect" enough. Why not just drop the book keeping, and offer the salvation message instead? That's what we fundies do, and it is very effective.

 

[MercyBurst]

I have yet not heard how those who don't like Calvnism explain how a spiritually dead person become alive?

They become spiritually alive by getting born again.

 

[JimfromOhio]

They become spiritually alive by getting born again.

Yes.. but how?

Self? Can we raise ourselves from physically dead alone?

I have scriptural support for my views however, I want to see what yours first.

 

[JimfromOhio]

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:10-11
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Through Adam, we are born spiritually dead. Through Jesus Christ, we are born-again spiritually. Romans 5:12 [ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Unregenerated person means spiritually dead person. Sin is separation from God meaning spiritually dead facing eternal death. Born-again means spiritually alive facing eternal life. The concept is this: Sin is where an unregenerate person runs away from God, meaning that a person called a "fugitive" that as a sinner, it is a person's inclination is to flee from God. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. When we have Jesus Christ in our lives, we no longer spiritually dead but spiritually alive even though our physical body will continue to decay and will die someday. A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY". The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved.

1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!” 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

The nineteenth-century Scottish commentator John Eadie described it as a case of "death walking". Spiritually dead people are like zombies--they don't know they're dead and they're still going through the motions of living.

 

[JimfromOhio]

We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive.

Romans 4:17-----God, who gives life to the dead.

Romans 8:11 -----If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

John 5:21 ----- For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

1 Corinthians 15:45 ---- And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:6-------who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

1 Peter 3:18 ------ For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

John 6:63----- It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Beoga]

I shared my honest experience as a reformed presbyterian, and I am sorry that upsets you.

I am sorry for your experience, however, that has no bearing on the correctness of theology of Presbyterianism. I believe one of two things has happened.
1. The preachers did not understand what Calvinism teaches.
2. In the 14 years you were in the church or w/e, you misunderstood what was being taught and since then have based your attacks on that misunderstanding.

Perhaps it can help you and others understand how the "predestinated elect" preaching comes across to the unsaved. We feel that we can never be good enough to be saved.

Then those preaching Calvinism have done their job. "There is none righteous, there is none who does good (Romans 3:10-13)." This is descriptive of all non-Christians. We were never good enough because we were wicked, enemies and haters of God. We wanted nothing to do with Him. There was no good found in us to make us savable. Yet, it is not about us, but about God who saves. It is due to the righteousness of Christ and the love, grace, and mercy of God that anyone is saved at all. Never take the focus off of the Creator and put it on the creature.

We feel that we have to be elect before we can be saved.

Well, logically this is true. Yet you seem to think that one must have definitive knowledge that they are elect before they are saved and this is simply not the case. Assurance of election comes with assurance of salvation.

Calvinism is poor public relations to those that want to reach Christ.

Choosing fishermen to be disciples is poor public relations. Calling the pharisees a brood of vipers is poor public relations. Turning tables over in the temple is poor public relations. The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.
God has never been about public relations, nor about pleasing man, but about His own Glory, even if that seems foolish to men.

Calvinism stands in the door like a judgmental pharisee, and this really needs to change.[/COLOR][/B]

There is a huge difference between the Pharisees, who had requirements for salvation, and Calvinist, who claim that it is not about your good deeds, but about God who saves.

I have provided honest feedback, and perhaps it can help your denomination before it loses the other half of its remaining members. I hope so.

and Jesus said:

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth

Aren't you glad I got saved? Apparantly not. But you really should be, regardless of what you think about me as a person.

God bless.

Don't misconstrue our correcting your misunderstanding of Calvinism with our lack of joy over a brother in Christ. You came in here with guns firing, not us. You are the one that personally attacked us. Just because you may disagree with us, that does not mean any of us wish you were condemned to Hell. God forbid. If your faith is genuine, then Praise God that, like me, He has extended great mercy to you and saved someone so undeserving.

 

[MercyBurst]

Choosing fishermen to be disciples is poor public relations. Calling the pharisees a brood of vipers is poor public relations. Turning tables over in the temple is poor public relations. The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.
God has never been about public relations, nor about pleasing man, but about His own Glory, even if that seems foolish to men.

Well then why not tell people about how to get saved instead of harping on election? Does election make a person feel better about themself, or what's the point of it?

I've been a christian now for 26 years. In my experience, election is irrelevant as a practicing christian. It's a nice thing to know, but it has nothing to do with the way I live my life for Christ.

Until Paul came along, none of the christians ever heard about it, and neither did the OT saints.



Speaking of PR issues check out this story:

http://www.layman.org/layman/news/2004-news/pcusa-membership-loss-in-03.htm

The Presbyterian Church (USA) lost 46,658 members during 2003 – higher than the projected downturn and the highest percentage loss in more than a quarter of a century.

The exodus reduced membership to 2,405,311 as of Dec. 31, 2003 – a loss of 1.85 million members since the PCUSA and its predecessor denominations had a peak membership of 4,254,597 in 1965.

It was more bad news statistically and financially for a denomination that has already reduced its headquarters staff in Louisville, Ky., from more than 700 employees to 494 to reduce the costs of its decline.

Not good to say the least. I'm one of those 1.85 million people that left. Maybe someone should listen before it's too late. People are leaving so fast there will nothing left in 100 years.