Religion is necessary, but not sufficient, for morality

[Ken-1122]

Slavery has not ended

I agree! Just because a crime has been outlawed, doesn't mean it still doesn't happen.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes the "so called" Christian nations. But are they really today. Seems its a dying belief. From memory didn't Obama say the US was no longer a Christian nation but one of many faiths.

The only religious nations that I know of are some of the Muslim nations that have enacted Sharia law; all of the other nations are secular.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Both Christianity and Islam have produced successful cultures. But today, both fail. Islam failed some time ago and Christian nations are in obvious decline today. So what changed? The religious texts and early writings have not changed. I believe that intelligence and morality has dropped for both cultural and genetic reasons.

Someone with a good heart but a dysfunctional brain is not able to distinguish between good and evil. And religion cannot fix this. One needs intelligence to properly apply religious teachings. And one needs a moral sense to even care. Modern culture promotes stupidity and immorality both through how children are raised and through dysgenic selection which lowers the quality of the human gene pool.

I have written about these issues at length on my Arkian website. I have posted about this to a Mennonite forum and a Muslim forum. Now I hope to get general Christian feedback here.

Christianity hasn’t failed to fulfill the prophecy that Jesus revealed. We already expected that this would happen and only continue to get worse until Christ’s return.

 

[stevevw]

The only religious nations that I know of are some of the Muslim nations that have enacted Sharia law; all of the other nations are secular.

I don't think Christianity is a national thing anyway. Its more a life choice which can happen anywhere. So there may be Christians in any nation even ones that are not Christian and even against Christianity. Islam is more fundamental and a bit like fundamental Christians but more extreme (maybe). Though I think the difference is so called Christian nations will allow other beliefs to co exist but Muslim nations won't.

I think Christianity may be more underground as well or in the background nowadays. People just going about their lives helping others. They don't often talk about it but rather show it through their actions.

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't think Christianity is a national thing anyway. Its more a life choice which can happen anywhere.

Ken
I think that is the case with all religions; they aren’t a national thing unless it’s followers allow it to be. With Islam, there are some countries where it is allowed to become a national thing.

So there may be Christians in any nation even ones that are not Christian and even against Christianity. Islam is more fundamental and a bit like fundamental Christians but more extreme (maybe). Though I think the difference is so called Christian nations will allow other beliefs to co exist but Muslim nations won't.

How are you describing Christian/Muslim nations? I describe a Christian nation as one where the law of the land comes from an interpretation of the Bible, and a Muslim nation as one where the law of the land comes from an interpretation of the Quran. India has more Muslims than any other nation; even those in Middle East Asia where Sharia Law is often enforced. But in India the Muslims behave more like Christians behave in western nations; because they are outnumbered and aren't allowed to get away with what they can get away with in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia; etc.

 

[fschmidt]

This sub-forum isn't necessarily christian... ethics and morality certainly isn't confined to the big three.

Orpheus and Plato and Aristotle practically birthed ethics and morality... the religion they followed would later be called Hellene by the Kingdom of Judah. Today, they call it Pagan... aka non-Jacob. Pagan religions are folk-religions... ethnically determined at the beginning. Local gods had laws for their own people. Thor has laws for his people, and Zeus has laws for Crete, etc. But the Creator is the same for all people. Some people confuse their local god with the Creator God... that's where it gets sticky.

I've glanced at your website.
Let me ask you this: How many people do you suppose are pure-bloods today? DNA is biased and cannot be trusted because of the way they gather their material and question their volunteers... a few generations of migrants are given the status of indigenes, and they're off to the races. Blood grouping used to be useful, even in 1965 when they charted the miners of Wales. They found that the overlords of the mines were group A, while the actual miners were group O. Body-type O was short and stocky and tanned. A was Nordic. B is Asiatic.

Yes, ethics isn't confined to the big three religious texts, I just started with them because they are big, but I would be glad to add others to the Arkian idea if there was practical justification.

I don't know much about Orpheus, but Plato and Aristotle just presented ethics in a philosophical way. Both the Bible and Homer are very concerned about ethics. I personally have serious problems with Plato, I basically agree with Aristophanes in "Clouds". Whenever Plato's mindset becomes dominant, you get tyranny and then decay. The gospel of John basically saved the West from Plato.

The Arkian idea has nothing to do with pure-bloods. All races are the result of some mix of previous peoples forming a new gene pool. The Arkian idea is to form a new better gene pool, and high quality members of any race can join.

I have no problem with Paganism in theory. I follow the Old Testament and Jeremiah 35 shows that my one god has no problem with other groups with their own gods. But I haven't seen a moral Pagan community with my own eyes, so I can't judge whether it would work in modern times.

 

[stevevw]

Ken
I think that is the case with all religions; they aren’t a national thing unless it’s followers allow it to be. With Islam, there are some countries where it is allowed to become a national thing.

How are you describing Christian/Muslim nations? I describe a Christian nation as one where the law of the land comes from an interpretation of the Bible, and a Muslim nation as one where the law of the land comes from an interpretation of the Quran. India has more Muslims than any other nation; even those in Middle East Asia where Sharia Law is often enforced. But in India the Muslims behave more like Christians behave in western nations; because they are outnumbered and aren't allowed to get away with what they can get away with in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia; etc.

Christian nations are mostly in the west and parts of Europe where they were built on Christian values which we still see today even if they are no longer Christian nations. Most nations don't allow Christian or Muslim beliefs to rule unless they are fundamentalist's like in some Middle eastern nations.

But I think the big difference is even though western nations have been Christian they have not become theocracies like some Muslim nations and allow people to choose. Perhaps that is why people are falling away from Christianity.

 

[stevevw]

Was this done at gunpoint? How did they get these people to work without pay?

They promised them pay but didn't in the end or gave them only a small portion of what was owed. It was a bit more deceptive than putting a gun to anyone's head. In the end they either didn't get anything or a small portion which meant they worked hard for nothing or very little. The bosses often treated them harshly as well and many died. So there were paradelles to the treatment of slaves.

 

[Kylie]

Christian nations are mostly in the west and parts of Europe where they were built on Christian values which we still see today even if they are no longer Christian nations.

Why do you think that Christianity was the source of these values?

 

[Ken-1122]

Christian nations are mostly in the west and parts of Europe where they were built on Christian values

(Ken)
What are you calling “Christian values”? The idea that you shouldn’t steal, kill, bear false witness, etc. etc. have been around long before Christianity so they can’t be considered Christian values; Christian values would have to be values that originated via Christianity. So what are some of these Christian values that you speak of?

Most nations don't allow Christian or Muslim beliefs to rule unless they are fundamentalist's like in some Middle eastern nations.

(Ken)
Secular nations don’t allow Christian or Muslim beliefs to rule. Muslim nations allow Muslim beliefs to rule, and Christian nations if there were any, would allow Christian beliefs to rule.

But I think the big difference is even though western nations have been Christian they have not become theocracies like some Muslim nations and allow people to choose. Perhaps that is why people are falling away from Christianity.

(Ken)
In your view, how is a religious theocracy different than a religious nation?

 

[stevevw]

And when you read further, you noticed that I said it was not only irrelevant, but boring.

I frankly don't remember any readings from the last 3 books, and only the "exodus" part of Exodus.

That's because Exodus is a well known story of the Israelite's enslaved in Egypt and traversing through the Sinai. But the primary message which follows into the other books is about after escaping how they setup the nation of Israel through the covenant between them and God. Just as a basic example you may have heard the saying scape goat. Well one aspect of the sacrifices was that it made them right before God through animal sacrifice which was symbolic of Christs sacrifice once and for all.

So we can get an understanding of how these laws identified the people were unrighteous and how God made a prototype way for people to be made right for their sins leading up to Christs coming. Part of this was to establish the laws which not only included the moral laws but the ceremonial and ritual ones to help make the Israelite's a holy nation as Gods chosen people from which the line of Christ came. It all plays a part and though some parts seem irrelevant they are important in understanding the relationship between God and his people.

Really, "The Jews had old laws that don't apply to us as Christians because we have the new laws of Jesus" worked perfectly fine. One need not know about mixing fabrics to understand the "New Covenant".

Those types of laws or rituals applied only to the Hebrews as they were Gods holy chosen people. Those laws symbolically represented aspects of life that made the Hebrews impure before God as his chosen people. For example not eating certain foods, cleaning of hands etc. represented contact with death. So they could not be contaminated with these things as part of becoming pure. But these were not moral sins but more about making oneself pure to come before God. But these were superseded by the New Covenant in which we are made pure by Christ. Paul mentions this when he says that its not what you eat but what is in your heart that makes a person impure.

Do you think law students read invalidated laws in law school?

Yes, as the history of law is replete with laws we no longer use or are updated to what we have today. You could say modern law better reflects the spirit of the law, what it intends.

 

[Hans Blaster]

That's because Exodus is a well known story of the Israelite's enslaved in Egypt and traversing through the Sinai. But the primary message which follows into the other books is about after escaping how they setup the nation of Israel through the covenant between them and God. Just as a basic example you may have heard the saying scape goat. Well one aspect of the sacrifices was that it made them right before God through animal sacrifice which was symbolic of Christs sacrifice once and for all.

So we can get an understanding of how these laws identified the people were unrighteous and how God made a prototype way for people to be made right for their sins leading up to Christs coming. Part of this was to establish the laws which not only included the moral laws but the ceremonial and ritual ones to help make the Israelite's a holy nation as Gods chosen people from which the line of Christ came. It all plays a part and though some parts seem irrelevant they are important in understanding the relationship between God and his people.

Those types of laws or rituals applied only to the Hebrews as they were Gods holy chosen people. Those laws symbolically represented aspects of life that made the Hebrews impure before God as his chosen people. For example not eating certain foods, cleaning of hands etc. represented contact with death. So they could not be contaminated with these things as part of becoming pure. But these were not moral sins but more about making oneself pure to come before God. But these were superseded by the New Covenant in which we are made pure by Christ. Paul mentions this when he says that its not what you eat but what is in your heart that makes a person impure.

I think you've lost the plot. (Or just like see your words on the screen. Not sure which it is. You do have a verbosity problem.)

 

[stevevw]

(Ken)
What are you calling “Christian values”? The idea that you shouldn’t steal, kill, bear false witness, etc. etc. have been around long before Christianity so they can’t be considered Christian values; Christian values would have to be values that originated via Christianity. So what are some of these Christian values that you speak of?

Christian values were around before anyone made them laws. God mentions that people knew the law by the way they acted like there was a law and their conscience condemned them. As far as written Christian law we have the 10 commandments which happened before modern Christian values and which western nations based their law in part.

(Ken)
Secular nations don’t allow Christian or Muslim beliefs to rule. Muslim nations allow Muslim beliefs to rule, and Christian nations if there were any, would allow Christian beliefs to rule.

I think for Christian nations we sort of tried this with Monarchies but it didn't work. Part of Christian belief is the idea of free will. God could have brought Jesus and made a theocracy with Jesus as the head to over rule the Romans forcing everyone to follow God. Many thought that was what Jesus was doing but He said He came to establish Gods Kingdom not a human made one.

(Ken)
In your view, how is a religious theocracy different than a religious nation?

I think they are pretty much the same thing aren't they if you mean as far as ruling.

 

[stevevw]

I think you've lost the plot. (Or just like see your words on the screen. Not sure which it is. You do have a verbosity problem.)

Can you elaborate. I thought I covered a fair bit of ground with just those words considering we are talking about a long history about how the law and morality was established in the Old Testament and how it relates to Christians today. Its hard to take one aspect of Christian morality from just today without understanding its history.

I think its the same for all beliefs. We see a common story of how we established moral laws in stone handed down by God or some sort of god or an element of nature that is like a god. This was an important part of becoming who we are. The moral law is in our DNA so to speak but I think more in a transcendent way though we do embody the morals simply by the fact we have to live together.

We can derive some truths about morality from our experiences and stories about that time such as the Bible and other stories of legends and archetypes. Like how sacrifice today is part of morality such the type of sacrifice you make as far as what is the right thing to do can make a difference in setting yourself right with god and the universe. Culminating in the ultimate sacrifice of giving ones own life which seems to be paradoxical to an atheistic and naturalistic view of the world.

 

[stevevw]

Why do you think that Christianity was the source of these values?

Basically we can trace a history in the west going back to the time of Christ and the birth of Christianity.

 

[Ken-1122]

Christian values were around before anyone made them laws. God mentions that people knew the law by the way they acted like there was a law and their conscience condemned them. As far as written Christian law we have the 10 commandments which happened before modern Christian values and which western nations based their law in part.

(Ken)
Would you agree that they were around before Christianity? And after Christianity, they existed in places where Christianity was never even heard of? If so, how can you call them Christian values?

I think for Christian nations we sort of tried this with Monarchies but it didn't work. Part of Christian belief is the idea of free will. God could have brought Jesus and made a theocracy with Jesus as the head to over rule the Romans forcing everyone to follow God. Many thought that was what Jesus was doing but He said He came to establish Gods Kingdom not a human made one.

I think they are pretty much the same thing aren't they if you mean as far as ruling.

So do you agree, there are no Christian nations?

 

[stevevw]

(Ken)
Would you agree that they were around before Christianity? And after Christianity, they existed in places where Christianity was never even heard of? If so, how can you call them Christian values?

Christian values existed before Christianity. They were around in the Old testament and in other beliefs. All religions have similar morals about right and wrong. They existed when there was no written laws like abstract laws or truths. The Bible says that we know the law in our hearts because our conscience bears witness by condemning us when we breach these moral truths.

So do you agree, there are no Christian nations?

I don't think there are Christian nations today as in a theocracy. I don't think you have to be a theocracy to be a Christian nation. I am not sure of the % today but I think the US is still majority Christian belief and yet they don't call themselves a Christian nation today. So it depends on what you mean by Christian nation.

Christians have no nation and exist wherever they may be within secular nations or even anti Christian nations. I think the spirit of Christian values is still alive where people sacrifice themselves in helping others.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Can you elaborate.

Elaboration is the problem. There is too much discussion of the irrelevant here.

I thought I covered a fair bit of ground with just those words considering we are talking about a long history about how the law and morality was established in the Old Testament and how it relates to Christians today. Its hard to take one aspect of Christian morality from just today without understanding its history.

Most early Christians weren't Jews so the voided Jewish laws were of minimal import to them. Instead of providing evidence that I am wrong, you provide endless argumentation. Arguments aren't evidence.

This all started because I commented about how the biggest impediment to actual Christian morality is the selective dredging of the voided OT laws by Christians. Hence, I said that Christianity would be better (morally) if it had abandoned parts of the OT.

 

[Ken-1122]

Christian values existed before Christianity. They were around in the Old testament and in other beliefs. All religions have similar morals about right and wrong. They existed when there was no written laws like abstract laws or truths. The Bible says that we know the law in our hearts because our conscience bears witness by condemning us when we breach these moral truths.

Would you say Christian values are the same as Human values; or even secular values? If not, how are they different?

I don't think there are Christian nations today as in a theocracy. I don't think you have to be a theocracy to be a Christian nation. I am not sure of the % today but I think the US is still majority Christian belief and yet they don't call themselves a Christian nation today. So it depends on what you mean by Christian nation.

I’ve already stated my definition of Christian nation is Christian theocracy; what’s YOUR definition?
BTW Even though our laws are secular, 70% of Americans consider themselves Christian

2020 PRRI Census of American Religion

2020 PRRI Census of American Religion

www.prri.org

 

[Kylie]

Basically we can trace a history in the west going back to the time of Christ and the birth of Christianity.

But that's not the issue, is it?

First of all, it's not just tracing a history, it's tracing the history of these specific concepts.

Secondly, it's not just tracing it back to the time of Jesus. It's seeing if they can be traced back to BEFORE the time of Jesus. After all, if Christianity wasn't the source but just took concepts that already existed, then we should see these concepts around BEFORE Christianity, shouldn't we? But if Christianity really was the source of these concepts, then we shouldn't see them at all before Christianity.