Religion and Science

[LewisWildermuth]

No I wouldn't 'tar' scientists as atheists because they choose not to honor God.

Who says that they choose not to honor God? They might choose to honor God in a different way then what Vossler might like, but that would be far from choosing not to honor God.

 

[random_guy]

Who says that they choose not to honor God? They might choose to honor God in a different way then what Vossler might like, but that would be far from choosing not to honor God.

I know. The argument doesn't make any sense. Why is it required to publicly honor God? If this was the way it was meant to be, then there'll always be someone saying, "That's not enough. How come those scientists don't honor God publicly every day they wake up?" If people think that publicly honoring God is the best way, I guarentee you it will turn into a shouting match of who loves God more by who honors God more publicly.

 

[vossler]

Lady Kate,

I thought we had agreed to disagree. Now you're coming for seconds. What's up? Is there a stone we've left unturned that you've just got to have answered or is it just that you can't help yourself?

 

[vossler]

Maybe it shows that you don't have much interest in science? I think you've said that openly quite a few times.

Yes, I don't have much of an interest in studying science, but I do follow the news and what's going on, whether it is sports, science or anything else.

 

[KerrMetric]

Yes, I don't have much of an interest in studying science, but I do follow the news and what's going on, whether it is sports, science or anything else.

This explains a lot. And the news outlets are notorious for screwing up science reports. And if you don't study it then how can you expect to understand it and comment upon its validity which you seem very prone to do?

 

[Numenor]

No I wouldn't 'tar' scientists as atheists because they choose not to honor God. Again, you and others wish to twist my words to say what you'd like them to say. I don't know why that is, but it's not for me to figure out, I simply gave an observation on what it could be, obviously only God knows. Here's what I see! Countless athletes, actors, musicians praise God, yet I haven't heard a single scientist do so. What does that say, only God really knows.

Christians in Science.

Francis S Collins is the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. Check out the list of his publications and you'll see all the ones he written about Science and Faith. Is this the kind of thing you're looking for or were you wanting the grandiose statement of faith at the top?

Again, you conveniently skip over my most important point and focus on a secondary observation. Why won't you comment on that point? Do you agree with it?

Forgive me, what point was that again?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Lady Kate,

I thought we had agreed to disagree. Now you're coming for seconds. What's up? Is there a stone we've left unturned that you've just got to have answered or is it just that you can't help yourself?

We agreed on nothing... you "agreed to disagree" and then went into your "Scientists are Atheists because they don't praise God in public the way I'd like them to" argument.

I never agreed to disagree on that.

 

[vossler]

Christians in Science.

Francis S Collins is the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. Check out the list of his publications and you'll see all the ones he written about Science and Faith. Is this the kind of thing you're looking for or were you wanting the grandiose statement of faith at the top?

I didn't get to see anything that glorifies God. None of the publications that I saw were available for viewing. Maybe you could give me a direct link?

Forgive me, what point was that again?

Why should science and religion (God specifically) be considered oil and water? God is the author of science and should be consulted and drawn into everything that is science, not treated as if He were a leper.

 

[vossler]

We agreed on nothing... you "agreed to disagree" and then went into your "Scientists are Atheists because they don't praise God in public the way I'd like them to" argument.

I never agreed to disagree on that.

Fine we don't agree to even disagree.

I didn't say all scientists were atheists, only most were.

According to a Gallup Poll only 10% of the national population have atheistic beliefs concerning our origins, yet 55% of scientists do, hence my word most when referring to scientists are atheists.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Fine we don't agree to even disagree.

I didn't say all scientists were atheists, only most were.

Semantics.

According to a Gallup Poll only 10% of the national population have atheistic beliefs concerning our origins, yet 55% of scientists do, hence my word most when referring to scientists are atheists.

And I don't see the word "atheism" in there anywhere... just a belief in naturalistic evolution. 55% of scientists polled believed that God did not direct evolution... not that there is no God.

More semantics? perhaps, but I wouldn't want to see anyone's words get twisted around... especially not the Poll's.

 

[vossler]

Semantics.



And I don't see the word "atheism" in there anywhere... just a belief in naturalistic evolution. 55% of scientists polled believed that God did not direct evolution... not that there is no God.

More semantics? perhaps, but I wouldn't want to see anyone's words get twisted around... especially not the Poll's.

Did you miss under the heading Naturalistic Evolution the sub-heading:

"Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process."

Sounds rather atheistic to me, but then again I could be wrong.

 

[chaoschristian]

Did you miss under the heading Naturalistic Evolution the sub-heading:

"Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process."

Sounds rather atheistic to me, but then again I could be wrong.

It says, "God had no part in this process."

It does not say, "And there is no God."

The wording of the poll would allow a deistic evolutionist to answer in the affirmative.

It also allows an atheistic evolutionist to answer in the affirmative.

Does anyone have a link to the source for this? I'd like to take a look at the whole thing.

 

[vossler]

It says, "God had no part in this process."

It does not say, "And there is no God."

The wording of the poll would allow a deistic evolutionist to answer in the affirmative.

It also allows an atheistic evolutionist to answer in the affirmative.

Does anyone have a link to the source for this? I'd like to take a look at the whole thing.

How many deistic evolutionists exist is anybodys guess, but I'd hardly think it to be statistically significant.

Well if we really want to get into this we could also say that of the 45% of scientists who do claim to be Christian, they would be like the rest of the populace and have a significant number of them who probably are not Christian. So in actuality if even 25% of scientists are true Christians that could be considered very high.

As for the link to the source, I'm sure you could go to Gallup.com and find it there.

 

[Tinker Grey]

How many deistic evolutionists exist is anybodys guess, but I'd hardly think it to be statistically significant.

Why?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Did you miss under the heading Naturalistic Evolution the sub-heading:

"Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process."

Sounds rather atheistic to me, but then again I could be wrong.

Well, you have been wrong in the past...

As I explicitly said... "God had no part in the process" does not mean the same as "There is no God."

It is a discussion of what God may or may not have done... what more you choose to read into it is entirely your own decision.

 

[Numenor]

I didn't get to see anything that glorifies God. None of the publications that I saw were available for viewing. Maybe you could give me a direct link?

There was nothing in the Christians in Science site that you thought was glorifying to God? Did you you actually read any of it?

And since you seem to want everyone else to do the leg work for you, here's an interview with Francis S Collins. Interesting to note that despite all his achievements and his great learning, what were the most influential books on him? Books by CS Lewis and Mere Christianity more specifically.

Edit: here's another interview with Christianity Today and one from PBS. good quote: "I'm not worried about God. I am worried about humans, because we have a long tradition of assuming greater importance for ourselves than we deserve."

Why should science and religion (God specifically) be considered oil and water? God is the author of science and should be consulted and drawn into everything that is science, not treated as if He were a leper.

This has been explained to you umpteen times already. Being a Christian wont automatically make you a better scientist and wont give you more accurate results than if you were an athiest, anybody who thinks that has their theology horribly wrong. Being a Christian doesn't make me a better soccer player than David Beckham. But does aknowledging that fact mean that I am separating sport and religion? Of course not, I take my faith with me everywhere I go including the soccer field.

 

[vossler]

There was nothing in the Christians in Science site that you thought was glorifying to God? Did you you actually read any of it?

Yes, still couldn't find it.

And since you seem to want everyone else to do the leg work for you, here's an interview with Francis S Collins. Interesting to note that despite all his achievements and his great learning, what were the most influential books on him? Books by CS Lewis and Mere Christianity more specifically.

After providing this and the following interviews I had high hopes to see a scientist who truly give glory to his Savior and maker. Unfortunately I was very disappointed.

No wonder I couldn't find God being glorified through his work in the previous link you provided, it doesn't exist because he didn't do it. All this interview did was tell of a couple of Christian books that had an influential in his life. Hardly a testimony on the awesome gift God gave him or the effect God had on his life. There was no direct credit given to God or whether His direction or influence in anyway effected his work.

Edit: here's another interview with Christianity Today and one from PBS. good quote: "I'm not worried about God. I am worried about humans, because we have a long tradition of assuming greater importance for ourselves than we deserve."

There was a nice quote I enjoyed reading in the Christianity Today piece "When a scientist discovers something that no human knew before, but God did—that is both an occasion for scientific excitement and, for a believer, also an occasion for worship." After reading that I was encouraged, but unfortunately that was the highlight of the piece. The rest of the interview was rather bland and there certainly wasn't any glory and honor given to Jesus or God. Since Jesus wasn't mentioned and references to God were of the milk toast variety; I can't say I was very inspired.

The PBS piece was even less inspiring, hardly the kind of material to bring anyone into a saving relationship with Jesus, especially since Jesus isn't even mentioned.

One thing I noticed about all three interviews is that God wasn't mentioned in a personal way. He was presented in the third person, as some unknown force or being.

This has been explained to you umpteen times already. Being a Christian wont automatically make you a better scientist and wont give you more accurate results than if you were an athiest, anybody who thinks that has their theology horribly wrong. Being a Christian doesn't make me a better soccer player than David Beckham. But does aknowledging that fact mean that I am separating sport and religion? Of course not, I take my faith with me everywhere I go including the soccer field.

Being a Christian should make you a better and more effective scientist.

If being a Christian has a small influence on your life then maybe, just maybe his power, grace, mercy and majesty haven't been given free reign in your heart.

 

[Numenor]

Yes, still couldn't find it.

Well you couldn't have looked very hard. I'm beginning to think that like all Creationists you will not be convinced unless you see an unachievable amount of evidence.

After providing this and the following interviews I had high hopes to see a scientist who truly give glory to his Savior and maker. Unfortunately I was very disappointed.

Aha now I know what you're expecting. You're expecting every Christian no matter aht walk of life to be shoving their faith down the throats of anyone who'll listen. I'm afraid we all know that that kind of witness is counter-productive in the long term.

Being a Christian should make you a better and more effective scientist.

Define 'better and more effective' scientist. Should Christian scientists always be the ones who are making the big breakthroughs? If they aren't is that because they don't take their faith seriously?

If being a Christian has a small influence on your life then maybe, just maybe his power, grace, mercy and majesty haven't been given free reign in your heart.

Frankly you are in no position to stand in judgement over the witness of the thousands upon thousands of Christian scientists the world over just because they do not live up to your expectations. I hope you use the same measuring rod against your own life. I hope you stand up at the end of your working day and tell everyone about the difference God has made in your life and about how God was made you a better worker.

 

[vossler]

Aha now I know what you're expecting. You're expecting every Christian no matter aht walk of life to be shoving their faith down the throats of anyone who'll listen. I'm afraid we all know that that kind of witness is counter-productive in the long term.

Why is it you and others wish to twist, distort and outright lie about what it is I'm saying. Could it be that what I'm saying is convicting?

Define 'better and more effective' scientist.

How about a scientist who not only provides lip service to God, but earnestly seeks His guidance and direction in everything he does.

Should Christian scientists always be the ones who are making the big breakthroughs?

Since we're God's children and as our Father in heaven, yeah I think He wants us to make the breakthroughs. Then if we're not available he'll use others.

If they aren't is that because they don't take their faith seriously?

If we're not, yes a possible reason is that we're not taking our faith and relationship with Him seriously.

Frankly you are in no position to stand in judgement over the witness of the thousands upon thousands of Christian scientists the world over just because they do not live up to your expectations. I hope you use the same measuring rod against your own life. I hope you stand up at the end of your working day and tell everyone about the difference God has made in your life and about how God was made you a better worker.

I'm not called to judge whether someone else is a believer or not. Each believer is called to do that themselves.

2 Corinthians 13:5 states:

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

I didn't judge anyone with my statement, I simply made an observation, that if Christ has a limited influence in your life quite possibly you haven't given Him full access to your heart.

If you wish to twist that statement in one of judgement and condemnation, I can't stop you. If you believe that statement to be not Christlike, I'd like you to show me via Scripture how it is. If so, I will repent.

If we're never to make any sort of judgements then how can we be discerning? Discernment by its very nature requires judgement.

I can refer you to Ephesians 4:1-3 which tells us how to act.

“Therefore, I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"

Have you been displaying that toward me? I'll leave you to judge.

Yes the people where I work know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. They know that it is only through Him that I can claim any victory and all that I am I am because of Him. Do I proclaim that each and everyday, yes. Maybe not always in words but in deeds and actions I most certainly try to live that out. I'm not always successful, but certainly more than I fail.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Why is it you and others wish to twist, distort and outright lie about what it is I'm saying. Could it be that what I'm saying is convicting?

Could it be that what you're saying is not all that convicting at all?

How about a scientist who not only provides lip service to God, but earnestly seeks His guidance and direction in everything he does.

And a scientist who does earnestly seek His guidance and direction, and still fails to make any revolutionary or world-changing breakthroughs... are they simply not praying hard enough?

The world is full of talented people, people who make things happen... as well as those who do not.

Similarly, the world is full of spirit-filled Christians... as well as those who are not.

Alas, there is little to no correlation between the one and the other. A Christian who practices science has as much possibility to come up empty as anyone else.

Since we're God's children and as our Father in heaven, yeah I think He wants us to make the breakthroughs. Then if we're not available he'll use others.If we're not, yes a possible reason is that we're not taking our faith and relationship with Him seriously.

Another possible reason is that somewhere out there, a nonbeliever is smarter than we are, and figured out on their own what God was trying to tell us, and simply did it first.

I'm not called to judge whether someone else is a believer or not. Each believer is called to do that themselves.

2 Corinthians 13:5 states:

"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

Then it would probably be best if you stopped judging others' faith.

I didn't judge anyone with my statement, I simply made an observation, that if Christ has a limited influence in your life quite possibly you haven't given Him full access to your heart.

Coupled with the judgement that those who do not publicly proclaim their faith have a limited influence from Christ.

If you wish to twist that statement in one of judgement and condemnation, I can't stop you. If you believe that statement to be not Christlike, I'd like you to show me via Scripture how it is. If so, I will repent.

How so? Christ clearly said judge not, lest ye be judged, so you've merely made the claim that you did not judge anyone when you said Christ had a limited influence on them.

You certainly won't repent so long as you insist that you've done no wrong.

If we're never to make any sort of judgements then how can we be discerning? Discernment by its very nature requires judgement.

Judgement of other people's faith?
...oh, I forgot, you didn't judge anyone, right? So it's a moot point.

I can refer you to Ephesians 4:1-3 which tells us how to act.

“Therefore, I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"

Have you been displaying that toward me? I'll leave you to judge.

Have you been displaying that to scientists? Or shall we refer you to Matthew 7:1-5?

Yes the people where I work know that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. They know that it is only through Him that I can claim any victory and all that I am I am because of Him. Do I proclaim that each and everyday, yes. Maybe not always in words but in deeds and actions I most certainly try to live that out. I'm not always successful, but certainly more than I fail.

And yet you hold scientists to a higher standard, and proclaim them "Atheists" when they don't live up to it.