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Relationships 101
- Thread starter Stanfi
- Start date
TriptychR
Investigative Retorter
the_man said:
Come now, sir. What do we do with people on this forum who say "Oh, I'd never have a chance with so and so; I'm too old/young/homely/poor."? We tell them to suck it up and try anyway! The fact is still that she engaged first, and I say there's a big difference between just being around and making googly eyes at someone and lying down at their feet while they're sleeping, asking them to protect you ceremonially. Saying her actions spoke volumes is an understatement. She was pretty much asking for it (and she might have been completley!).
Of course Boaz had to act as well, but what were his choices? Accept or reject. For all the people who say that men should only be pursuing, it should be the woman's choice whether to accept or reject, don't you think? She went to him. She asked of him. She imposed upon him. And I'm not saying that's wrong. You seem to be granting her the action yourself. I just hear a heck of a lot said to women around here about sitting and waiting for a guy to come along, and I think it's led to some confusion.
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TriptychR said:
It's in the Bible. But that does not mean that Ruth's method is THE biblical method on "how to find a man" or "how to get your man". None of can tell what would have happened had she not listened to Naomi and stayed home that night. By law Boaz was to redeem Naomi. He might have done it anyway - whether or not Ruth threw herself at his feet. Maybe someone else would have come riding along on a camel or horse or on foot and proposed to her. Or Boaz would have eventually noticed that Ruth does not follow younger men and so he might have a chance.
God has a purpose and plan for all of us. But that does not mean He has the same purpose and plan for all of us. God is not the author of confusion. If we are confused than it's because we add this confusion. I learnt the hard way that I can't just say: oh, she does this and it works out fine. So, I'll do the same thing. Or: oh, she does this and it doesn't work. So I better do the opposite. I remember in all instances, I spend too much time on what others do, how they do it, what they achieve and how I want the same thing or how I don't want this happening to me. I spent comparatively little or no time taking a rain check and consulting God. And then it rained.
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TriptychR
Investigative Retorter
I agree with you, carmi. It's all these commands from the outside saying "If you're a man, you must go after the woman." or "If you're a woman, you must let the man come to you." that cause people to automatically reject a potential relationship if things don't work out exactly that way. That's the confusion I was talking about. It seems to be popular thought that, by putting God in control of finding a relationship for you, that it will just one day be deposited neatly in a box on your doorstep. So if anything strange happens--say "life," for example--these people automatically shut down and run away.
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TriptychR said:
It seems that people sometimes think they have been wrong or it wasn't in God's will after all or, if things don't go smoothly immediately, they take matters in their own hand.
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the_man
" My heart is spoken for&
TriptychR said:
Hehe, is googly eyes at someone your idea of seduction? Anyway, yes she went beyond just sitting in a corner, playing with her hair and glancing at Boaz to invite him over, but lying at someone's feet was not a marriage proposal. In fact, what we would call "flirting" already occured, I'll explain this later. Let me liken what Ruth did to this modern day example. Let us say we have a man and a woman that are close friends. They spend time with each other and the time that they spend with each other increases. Our woman is waiting for our man to engage her for a relationship, but our man still does nothing. Infact, our man looks to spend time with other women as well as our woman. Upon learning this, our woman confronts the man saying "I desire marriage and I strongly feel that we should explore that possibility. However, if you are unwilling, then I cannot afford to give you any more of my time or myself". Our man has a decision to make.
This is very different than what most would take out of the passage. Most would take it as a license for the woman to engage. However, in the case of Ruth and Boaz (and in my adequate enough example) the circumstances were setup that the woman had not choice but to poke the man to engage. For some reason Boaz and our man did not have the courage(?) to enagage (because it does take courage). One could say that the "air" was there for something to happen, just nothing was happening.
Now even as I say this, a woman might think, hey, I like a man, so I sould poke him to engage with me. That most often will lead to a thorn at his side. I've seen many women chase a man down because she believes that something is there, when infact she is deceiving herself. The circumstances Ruth was under were extraordinary. Even our woman was not in normal circumstances (more normal today, I'll get to this later again). In order for a woman to pull a "Ruth", it would be under extraordinary circumstances as was described in the passage and my example.
TriptychR said:
Well, both men and women can accept or reject. I don't understand what you were trying to get at. I have met many women that wouldn't have minded if I engaged with them, but I did not. You can decline an invitation or accept it. You can deny engagement or receive it.
The confusion you speak of is many fold. It has very little to do with our discussion (i.e. our discussion is a very little part of the confusion). Think of it this way, the Bible describes many woman that were married and content with marriage. How many of those women poked their husbands to doing their duty to engage? Again, Ruth is not a normal circumstance. Part of the reason there is a lot of confusion is because men (in general) have not stepped up to the plate (not male bashing here, just calling it as it is). That has led to a lot of women being unhappy, confused and hurt. Another part is women (in general) have not been reasonable with men (not female bashing, just calling it as it is). That has led to a lot of men being wounded over and over again. Why do men and women have these tendancies? General society has played no small role. General society has a narrow definition of what a woman is and who a man should be and if you don't such criteria, you just aren't up to snuff (we all know it's nonsense, but it seems to influence us all).
And as far as women sitting on their hands waiting for a guy to come along, she is no different than a man who thinks a woman (actually, any woman) would make him feel more like a man. These two usually find each other and will not be happy.
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TriptychR
Investigative Retorter
So it was extreme circumstances that led Naomi to goad Ruth to cash in on Boaz's duty as a kinsman to protect her. I can dig that. For if Naomi said, "If you have the hots for Boaz so much, you should do this..." would this debate have followed through the way it has? This way, love between them seems on the backburner.
I still have a couple questions, though:
1. What did you take as them "flirting"? You said you would go into it later, yet didn't. Was that the whole deal of Boaz feeding Ruth and giving her more to glean?
2. How do women treat men unreasonably?
I still have a couple questions, though:
1. What did you take as them "flirting"? You said you would go into it later, yet didn't. Was that the whole deal of Boaz feeding Ruth and giving her more to glean?
2. How do women treat men unreasonably?
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the_man
" My heart is spoken for&
TriptychR said:
In our westernized culture, we put the feeling of love before the commitment of love. I.e. you fall in love and then you commit. In some other cultures the act of love comes before the feeling. i.e you commit to love and then you fall in love. That is why arranged marriages works well in other cultures. Not that either is the right or the wrong way (both have their advantages and disadvantages), just that the "hots" for someone was not a necessary prerequisite in those days.
TriptychR said:
Yeah, I meant that they had a thing going on before Ruth met him at the floor. They liked each other, it was obvious.
What I meant by that is that, just as men have their idea of what a woman should be, women also have theirs of what a man should be. And both can turn down a very good choice because of these. Have you watched the movie Emma? Harriet Smith (more like it Emma) was being unreasonable to turn down Robert Martins marriage proposal. Robert Martin wasn't the richest, smoothest brother on the planet, but for Ms Smith he is a very good match. That's what I meant by unreasonable (men do it too, but I had already mentioned an offense we commit).
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the_man
" My heart is spoken for&
TriptychR said:You explained your case and demonstrated to the ladies that you've seen the movie Emma. Well played, sir.
Haha, busted! I need a bumber sticker: "Real men watch Jane Austen movies". Seriously though, she is an excellent author and they have done well with the movies. Wherever knowledge and wisdom can be gained, I want to be there.
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