Relationship between Mathematics and Scripture

[RationalThought]

I am curious how others view the relationship between Mathematics and Scripture. This is different than the argument about the relationship between Science and Scripture, Mathematics is entirely abstract and not subject to falsification by observation.

My personal view is that Mathematics is more fundamental than Scripture. Where Scripture comes in conflict with Mathematical principles, I side with Mathematics, like in the case of consistency.

Thanks in advance for your input,


RationalThought

 

[Randall McNally]

I would say that is virtually self-evident. Scripture can only be fundamental if it is accurate, and that has not been accomplished to my knowledge.

 

[Kmart]

Of course you're right, but I don't know of anywhere that Scripture is "in conflict" with mathematics.

 

[JustJack!]

S.A.B. is the coolest.

2 Chronicles 4:2 Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

Since the molten sea was round with a diameter of ten cubits and a circumference of thirty cubits, we know that the biblical value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.)

Seemingly minor, but shouldn't the Bible be accurate and precise thoughout all ages?

 

[Kmart]

Seemingly minor, but shouldn't the Bible be accurate and precise thoughout all ages?

Yeah, that's pretty minor... did they even have decimals back then?

 

[JustJack!]

Yeah, that's pretty minor... did they even have decimals back then?

To say that is to say the Bible was influenced by the culture it was written in.

God is supposed to transend all cultures, at all times.

 

[Gracchus]

Of course you're right, but I don't know of anywhere that Scripture is "in conflict" with mathematics.

Logic is a branch of mathematics.
Scripture is in conflict with logic.

Q.E.D. Scripture is in conflict with mathematics.

 

[Randall McNally]

Yeah, that's pretty minor... did they even have decimals back then?

Considering that they had an objective standard for a cubit, it seems reasonable that they could have deduced fractions of a cubit therefrom.

 

[kedaman]

S.A.B. is the coolest.



Since the molten sea was round with a diameter of ten cubits and a circumference of thirty cubits, we know that the biblical value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.)

Seemingly minor, but shouldn't the Bible be accurate and precise thoughout all ages?

Nice one, being an irrational number, nobody could put it precisely, except God. Does it matter? Well, personally if I had a room full of paper listed with the decimals of pi, it wouldn't be much of a use. A friend of mine had a program generated pi up to the four billion'th decimal, but it was some use after all to add up to a sharing limit in a hub on Direct Connect, but wasting paper writing down those decimals that 99% of the bible consisted of them, especially in the ages where people copied them by hand, just isn't sane. The scripture was written by men who were inspired by God, they didn't have laser printers back then or 300G harddrives. People who take the scripture to be God's word are either meaning to say that its inspired by God, or are simply deluded. It is text subject to misinterpretation and mistranslation, on perishable paper in a fallible and everchanging human language written by fallible people, but it is inspired by God, and people who are inspired by God can do a decent job in translating as well as reading and interpreting what it says.

 

[Sheshonq]

Nice one, being an irrational number, nobody could put it precisely, except God. Does it matter?

There are scriptural precedents for saying "a little more than", or "a little less than", or "the third part of" something. But they weren't used here. Had the text said "a little more than three cubits", or "three cubits and the tenth part of a cubit", that would have dramatically increased the accuracy.

I think what the previous poster was saying is that if the Bible was written by an infallible God, then he can give dictation to humans who don't necessarily need to understand what they are writing. That is what happened when Ezekiel transcribed his visions, after all.

For that reason, trying to explain away this math error by saying, "Well, decimals and pi were not part of ancient Hebrew culture" does not work as an excuse. (And just a note - decimals weren't even necessary; pi is also defined as 22/7).

 

[Kmart]

This is an interesting thread... there are so many places where the bible doesn't make sense, it's strange to harp on a math problem, but it's also kinda cool...

Now here's something: Who made the universe to be so mathematically elegant in the first place?

 

[Alencon]

Since the molten sea was round with a diameter of ten cubits and a circumference of thirty cubits, we know that the biblical value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.)

Seemingly minor, but shouldn't the Bible be accurate and precise thoughout all ages?

Even I figure that's just rounded off to a nice convenient number and I'm a heathen!

You're expecting accuracy to decimal places in what is essentially a historical document?

 

[Randall McNally]

Now here's something: Who made the universe to be so mathematically elegant in the first place?

Is it? The universe is an awfully vast and complex place to be described by a single, nebulous adjective.

Planck-length and Planck-time have never seemed all that elegant, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Kmart]

Planck-length and Planck-time have never seemed all that elegant, but maybe that's just me.

The Planck-time blows my mind... If I remember correctly, it's like there's an inherent graininess to the universe... and stuff that happens within that time isn't subject to the laws of physics? That opens up all kinds of sci-fi possibilities... anyway, that stuff's pretty cool.

 

[RationalThought]

Thanks for the replies.

As to who made the universe so mathematically elegant in the first place, my personal answer is that the force that created the universe, call it God, the Tao, etc., acted in a mathematical manner, perhaps even was mathematical in nature.

I was unaware of the pi error. The biggest problems I encounter is when I try to apply the concept of consistency to the Bible, and the God of the Bible. I have always had a strong relationship with God, but I have found that the Bible does not accurately reflect that God. Consistency is one of the primary attributes of God, and the God related in the Bible is far from consistent. A consistent God would never act capriciously, get angry at times, choose one group of people over another, etc. I have found God's voice more in the principles and theorems of mathematics than in the scriptures. The idea that any human language can capture God's message has always seemed silly to me.

Again, thanks,


RationalThought

 

[kedaman]

There are scriptural precedents for saying "a little more than", or "a little less than", or "the third part of" something. But they weren't used here. Had the text said "a little more than three cubits", or "three cubits and the tenth part of a cubit", that would have dramatically increased the accuracy.

I think what the previous poster was saying is that if the Bible was written by an infallible God, then he can give dictation to humans who don't necessarily need to understand what they are writing. That is what happened when Ezekiel transcribed his visions, after all.

For that reason, trying to explain away this math error by saying, "Well, decimals and pi were not part of ancient Hebrew culture" does not work as an excuse. (And just a note - decimals weren't even necessary; pi is also defined as 22/7).

I'm not trying to excuse errors in the bible. There are errors and I know that.
I have a swedish bible that says almost 15 metres, they could have used fractions but what does it matter?

 

[Soldier of YAH]

Firstly, those who believe that they have found an 'error' in the scriptures, please let us know, for I am yet to find one. Most have been misunderstandings by the people reading it.

Also, different cultures have different counting systems. The ancient Egyptians used a accurate method of using fractions to represent numbers. They didn't use a decimal system. Some civilisations have even used base 60 for their counting systems as it can divide by 1,2,3,4,5,6. The aztecs used a sytem of tallies to keep a record of numbers. All these systems are different from the metric-decimal system we use, but just as effective.

Not all cultures use different symbols for their numbers either, like the system we use. The Romans used the letters I, V, X, L, C, D, M, to represent the numbers 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000 respectively. The Greeks and Hebrews used nearly their entire alphabet to represent numbers. All of these three systems don't use place value either. To represent 6 they use VI, which in place values would be 51.

The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, and so we can make numbers from the words of the two languages used. And that is where the interesting things start.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The very first verse in the Bible has:

• 7 Hebrew words
• 7x4 letters
• 3 nouns with a total of 7x2 letters and a numeric value of 777
• the one verb, 'created', with a value of 7x29
• two parts, 'In the beginning God created', with 7x2 letters, and 'the heavens and the earth.' with 7x2 letters.
• the numeric value of the first and last letters of each word totals 7x199
• the total value of the first and last letters of the verse is 7x71

Matthew 1:1-11 is the geneology of Christ, has:

• 7x7 Greek words
• of which 7x4 begin with a vowel
• has a total of 7x38 letters
• of which 7x20 are vowels and 7x18 are consonants
• 7x5 nouns are proper names
• 7 are common nouns
• 7x4 proper nouns are male ancestors of Christ
• 7 are not

Matthew 1:18-25 has

• 7x23 Greek words
• with a numerical value of 7x13,342
• and 7x15 forms
• 7x11 different words in the vocabulary
• with a numerical value of 7x7,321
• 7 proper names
• In speaking to Joseph, the angel uses 7x4 different words
• with 7x5 forms
• which have 7x24 letters

Seeing something happening here?

How about the names of Christ:

• 'Jesus' = 888
• 'Christ' = 8x185
• 'Saviour' = 8x176
• 'Lord' = 8x100
• 'Messiah' = 8x82
• 'The Son of Man' = 8x370
• 'The Truth' = 8x8
• 'Our Lord' = 8x221
• 'Jesus Christ' = 8x8x37
• 'Son of Man' occurs 88 times

Or the names of the Devil:

• 'The Adversary' = 13x28
• 'The Anti-Christ' = 13x147
• 'Belial' = 13x6
• 'Dragon' = 13x75
• 'Serpent' = 13x60
• 'The Demon' = 13x75
• 'Tempter' = 13x81
• 'Murderer' = 13x140
• 'Beelzebub' = 13x46

These types of patterns are littered throughout the entire bible, (the 66 books of the Authorised Version only - no apocrypha). The numbers occur more often in places with special meanings, hence we are able to give meanings to the different values, like:
8 = Resurrection
13 = Rebellion
11 = Instruction
37 = The Word of God
6 = Man under sin
5 = Grace
7 = The Seal of God, etc

Using the Law of Compound Probability, which measures the probability of all these different mathematical patterns happening at once, we get astounding results.

From the almost 200 features that I have found in different patterns, we get a probability of:
1.435885353 x 10^197

Or, in words, for every one hundred thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion books in the world, only one will have the features, or their equivalent. That is, the Bible.

I know of about at least 100 more features, but I have not been able to find them yet.

Ivan Panin was a aethiest Russian scientist and mathematician who was a major player in the discovery of these mathematical patterns. He has written several books about the phenomena.

Just a little extra about mathematics and the Scriptures.

Soldier of YAH

 

[theywhosowintears]

I am curious how others view the relationship between Mathematics and Scripture. This is different than the argument about the relationship between Science and Scripture, Mathematics is entirely abstract and not subject to falsification by observation.

My personal view is that Mathematics is more fundamental than Scripture. Where Scripture comes in conflict with Mathematical principles, I side with Mathematics, like in the case of consistency.

Thanks in advance for your input,


RationalThought

"There is a sense I suppose in which twice one is two; a sense in which two and two are four; a sense in which many other propositions of this kind are partly, if not wholly, true. It is difficult to see how merchants and accountants and other excellent & well meaning people could go back to their desks and counting houses if their faith in these arithmetical conclusions were seriously shaken.

I hasten therefore so say there is a plane of ledgers and cashbooks on which these propositions are approximately sound, but if you rise from that plane to a loftier one, you will find at once that they are completely untenable, they simply will not work. Solomon proves it at the City Gate once and for all, it may be true that half a sovereign and half a sovereign make one sovereign, it is obviously untrue that half a baby and half a baby make one baby. Let the sword do its deadly work… half a baby and half a baby will represent but the grim and gruesome mockery of a child.

Two halves of a baby make no baby at all. On this higher plane of human sentiment and experience the laws of mathematics collapse completely, when for example a man distributes his wealth amongst children, he gives to each a part but when a women distributes her love amongst her children she gives it all to each of them." F W Borum (sp?)

 

[RationalThought]

Firstly, those who believe that they have found an 'error' in the scriptures, please let us know, for I am yet to find one. Most have been misunderstandings by the people reading it.

Also, different cultures have different counting systems. The ancient Egyptians used a accurate method of using fractions to represent numbers. They didn't use a decimal system. Some civilisations have even used base 60 for their counting systems as it can divide by 1,2,3,4,5,6. The aztecs used a sytem of tallies to keep a record of numbers. All these systems are different from the metric-decimal system we use, but just as effective.

Not all cultures use different symbols for their numbers either, like the system we use. The Romans used the letters I, V, X, L, C, D, M, to represent the numbers 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000 respectively. The Greeks and Hebrews used nearly their entire alphabet to represent numbers. All of these three systems don't use place value either. To represent 6 they use VI, which in place values would be 51.

The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, and so we can make numbers from the words of the two languages used. And that is where the interesting things start.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The very first verse in the Bible has:

• 7 Hebrew words
• 7x4 letters
• 3 nouns with a total of 7x2 letters and a numeric value of 777
• the one verb, 'created', with a value of 7x29
• two parts, 'In the beginning God created', with 7x2 letters, and 'the heavens and the earth.' with 7x2 letters.
• the numeric value of the first and last letters of each word totals 7x199
• the total value of the first and last letters of the verse is 7x71

Matthew 1:1-11 is the geneology of Christ, has:

• 7x7 Greek words
• of which 7x4 begin with a vowel
• has a total of 7x38 letters
• of which 7x20 are vowels and 7x18 are consonants
• 7x5 nouns are proper names
• 7 are common nouns
• 7x4 proper nouns are male ancestors of Christ
• 7 are not

Matthew 1:18-25 has

• 7x23 Greek words
• with a numerical value of 7x13,342
• and 7x15 forms
• 7x11 different words in the vocabulary
• with a numerical value of 7x7,321
• 7 proper names
• In speaking to Joseph, the angel uses 7x4 different words
• with 7x5 forms
• which have 7x24 letters

Seeing something happening here?

How about the names of Christ:

• 'Jesus' = 888
• 'Christ' = 8x185
• 'Saviour' = 8x176
• 'Lord' = 8x100
• 'Messiah' = 8x82
• 'The Son of Man' = 8x370
• 'The Truth' = 8x8
• 'Our Lord' = 8x221
• 'Jesus Christ' = 8x8x37
• 'Son of Man' occurs 88 times

Or the names of the Devil:

• 'The Adversary' = 13x28
• 'The Anti-Christ' = 13x147
• 'Belial' = 13x6
• 'Dragon' = 13x75
• 'Serpent' = 13x60
• 'The Demon' = 13x75
• 'Tempter' = 13x81
• 'Murderer' = 13x140
• 'Beelzebub' = 13x46

These types of patterns are littered throughout the entire bible, (the 66 books of the Authorised Version only - no apocrypha). The numbers occur more often in places with special meanings, hence we are able to give meanings to the different values, like:
8 = Resurrection
13 = Rebellion
11 = Instruction
37 = The Word of God
6 = Man under sin
5 = Grace
7 = The Seal of God, etc

Using the Law of Compound Probability, which measures the probability of all these different mathematical patterns happening at once, we get astounding results.

From the almost 200 features that I have found in different patterns, we get a probability of:
1.435885353 x 10^197

Or, in words, for every one hundred thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion books in the world, only one will have the features, or their equivalent. That is, the Bible.

I know of about at least 100 more features, but I have not been able to find them yet.

Ivan Panin was a aethiest Russian scientist and mathematician who was a major player in the discovery of these mathematical patterns. He has written several books about the phenomena.

Just a little extra about mathematics and the Scriptures.

Soldier of YAH

Thanks for the reply.

I first encountered this Bible code theory about 30 years ago. I don't remember the author's name, but he was an NBA player. I find this sort of thing fascinating in the same way I find Chariots of the Gods and The Late, Great Planet Earth fascinating.

I have studied mathematics at the postgraduate level including set theory, topology, category theory, and measurement and probability. I am far from overwhelmed by this "evidence". As some of the books inspired by the recent Bible Code craze show, you can find almost any message in a book the size of the Bible.

If this has strengthened your relationship with God, I am happy for you. The aspect of mathematics I am interested in investigating concerning religions are principles and attributes. As I mentioned before, my relationship with God and my understanding of mathematics leads me to the conclusion that God is the very essence of consistency. Now once I attribute consistency to God, I have trouble recognizing God as I know Him in the Bible. For example, I believe that God loves mankind. Striking special deals with one group of people while denying even contacting everyone else on Earth fails my consistency test. I believe that God speaks to everyone, everywhere, at everytime. We all hear Him in the capacity of which we are capable. We are each special to God, and He tell us that if we follow Him, we will prosper in life. The easiest explanation for the Old Testament for me is that Abraham heard God say "Abraham, you are special to me. If you follow me, you and your family will prosper." And Abraham made the mistake of assuming that this deal was only made to him and his family. And that mistake has propagated ever since.

Again, thanks and may God's love be with you,


RationalThought

 

[Soldier of YAH]

This is not the Bible code.

I have read the Bible Code book, and it seems to me that it is very far-fetched. The method is obscure in its process. I'm not saying anything definite about the Bible code, because I really do not know.

But This is not the Bible Code.

This is Mathematics.

This uses a feature of the two languages that are used to write the Bible. Any Greek or Hebrew text can be turned into numbers, just not with the results of the Bible.

These features were discovered by a Russian aethiest,mathematician in 1885. His name was Ivan Panin. He has written several books and articles on the matter.

But the best thing about it is that you can do it yourself. Anyone can pick a bible passage, find the Greek of Hebrew equivalent, and start counting. This is an open, honest and provable discovery.

But it is not restricted to the writing itself! This feature is found in the story of the Bible as well.

Try:

• There being a 7 fold blessing to Abraham.
• of the 20 kings of Judah 7 were righteous
• There was a 7 fold sprinkling required on the Day of Atonement
• King David to Mary (Jesus' mother) was 77 (7x11) generations
• In Revelation there is 7 letters to 7 churches, 7 candlesticks, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 stars, 7 lamps of fire,7 angels, 7 bowels
• 7 miracles in the Gospel of John
• 7 angels appeared to Jesus
• Joshua marched Israel around Jericho for 7 days; and did it 7 times on the 7th day; accompanied by 7 priests with 7 trumpets

Read through the Laws, and the instructions for the different feasts, and even the dimensions of the Tabernacle found in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. You will see the specialisation of the number 7, as well as features of other numbers that can be related to their 'meanings'.

Bible Numerics is about the Bible and Numbers, not just in the script.

Soldier of YAH