Rejection of Mary as your mediator

[RMDY]

I don't believe in this ideology. So Roman Catholics, I do not mean to be disputive here and cause division, but I honestly am perplexed by some of you.

Now, some of you hold her in high esteem. I don't argue you about your love for her. But, I do ask one thing:

In the Roman Catholic ideology, is a person in danger of going to hell if you reject the Roman Catholic ideology of Mary interceeding for you and just reduce her to someone who put her faith in Jesus or even deny a lot of "things" Mary "does" for people?

 

[seashale76]

I don't believe in this ideology. So Roman Catholics, I do not mean to be disputive here and cause division, but I honestly am perplexed by some of you.

Now, some of you hold her in high esteem. I don't argue you about your love for her. But, I do ask one thing:

In the Roman Catholic ideology, is a person in danger of going to hell if you reject the Roman Catholic ideology of Mary interceeding for you and just reduce her to someone who put her faith in Jesus or even deny a lot of "things" Mary "does" for people?

Not being part of the Catholic Church, I can only answer this question from an Orthodox perspective. Mary, the Theotokos (God bearer) does intercede for us through prayer, as do ALL the saints. When a person asks the Theotokos, or any other saint, to pray for them, it is just like when we ask for anyone else to pray for us. The saints are alive in Christ. So, while a person wouldn't go to hell for rejecting their prayers, it would certainly be a shame for them not to take advantage of the opportunity. Those in the Church are ALIVE in Christ, because God is the God of the living and not the dead.

As the Paschal Troparion says: Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!

 

[simonthezealot]

it would certainly be a shame for them not to take advantage of the opportunity.
!

I don't get this, why would it be a shame?
It seems a shame not to go directly to the creator of this universe via the one and only true mediator Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior.

 

[seashale76]

I don't get this, why would it be a shame?
It seems a shame not to go directly to the creator of this universe via the one and only true mediator Jesus Christ our LORD and Savior.

Straw man. We DO go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them?

 

[WarEagle]

Straw man. We DO go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them?

If somebody ever prayed to me, that's exactly what I'd tell them. And if I ever found out that somebody in our church was praying to the dead, I'd have to ask them why they believe the dead can help them.

 

[seashale76]

If somebody ever prayed to me, that's exactly what I'd tell them. And if I ever found out that somebody in our church was praying to the dead, I'd have to ask them why they believe the dead can help them.

Well, since you are insinuating that you believe your god is the god of the dead and not the living then I suppose people praying to you and to the dead would be more than useless.

However, the God I worship is the God of the living. The saints of the Church are ALIVE in Christ. I will ask them to pray for me, as I ask my other brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, and I them.

 

[namericanboy]

I don't really think anyone denies 'absent from the body, present with the Lord in the spiritual realm...I don't have to "pray" to give my prayer request.I can pnone , fax or give it to them...I have to somehow "contact" those gone on, given the effect that they can "hear" simultaneous prayers to them need special attributes>

 

[seashale76]

I don't really think anyone denies 'absent from the body, present with the Lord in the spiritual realm...I don't have to "pray" to give my prayer request.I can pnone , fax or give it to them...I have to somehow "contact" those gone on, given the effect that they can "hear" simultaneous prayers to them need special attributes>

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! Perhaps this misconception came about from bad translation? At any rate, I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

 

[E.C.]

Straw man. We DO go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to seashale76 again.

Curse-ed reputation nazis...

 

[E.C.]

If somebody ever prayed to me, that's exactly what I'd tell them. And if I ever found out that somebody in our church was praying to the dead, I'd have to ask them why they believe the dead can help them.

The saints and the Theotokos are not dead. They are alive in heaven. Their bodies, which their souls have zero connection to, are dead.

To say that the saints are dead, is to say that their souls are still on this earth with their bodies. To say this is to say that Christ never resurrected which is to say that He never conquered death. To say that is to say that we have nothing to live for.

 

[WarEagle]

The saints and the Theotokos are not dead.

There is no evidence to suggest that they did not die.

They are alive in heaven.

And dead to us.

To say that the saints are dead, is to say that their souls are still on this earth with their bodies.

To whom is the Bible referring when it talks about "the dead in Christ"?

To say this is to say that Christ never resurrected which is to say that He never conquered death. To say that is to say that we have nothing to live for.

Christ did conquer death. However, people still die.

 

[namericanboy]

No body saying there spirit bodies are dead...No matter what pray means you stll have to have a means of "contact" outside this realm...I never saw Paul or Timothy try to contact Stephen after he passed from this earth..God iis able with His attributed to trancend the realms...We know in Hebrews the saints can "observe" us .We have no teaching we are to somehow get in contact with them...If I read it and saw examples in scripture Like Jesus agve on how to pray , I would do it in a heartbeat...Some one finds a scriptures on a deserted isle...I'll bet they will just contact the Lord from what the scriptures teachh and give example. This practice was developed by man after the original apostles..

 

[E.C.]

No body saying there spirit bodies are dead...No matter what pray means you stll have to have a means of "contact" outside this realm...I never saw Paul or Timothy try to contact Stephen after he passed from this earth..God iis able with His attributed to trancend the realms...We know in Hebrews the saints can "observe" us .We have no teaching we are to somehow get in contact with them...If I read it and saw examples in scripture Like Jesus agve on how to pray , I would do it in a heartbeat...Some one finds a scriptures on a deserted isle...I'll bet they will just contact the Lord from what the scriptures teachh and give example. This practice was developed by man after the original apostles..

You are thinking of necromancy which is contact of the body. Greek, necros means body. Necromancy is forbidden because it is meant for contact with bodies and to learn things. Prayer to the saints is not this.

Veneration was established by the Apostles themselves. St. Ignatius of Antioch was martyred in Rome in the early 2nd century; around 10...2 I believe. He was chosen by St. Peter to lead the Church in Antioch, but was taken to Rome and martyred.

When we pray to the saints, all we are doing is asking "can you pray for me?" We are not asking "What did you have for lunch on such-and-such date?" It is not communication as you seem to make it out to be which would fall under necromancy.


Just because something was developed by man after the Apostles does not automatically give it the stamps of evil and heresy. If that is the case than throw out your Bible.

 

[E.C.]

There is no evidence to suggest that they did not die.

Everlasting life.

And dead to us.

Dead bodies and death are different.

To whom is the Bible referring when it talks about "the dead in Christ"?

Not sure, need verse for context checking.

Christ did conquer death. However, people still die.

Their bodies die. The soul and body separate. The soul lives, while the body dies because without the soul the body is nothing.

 

[Catholic Christian]

I don't believe in this ideology. So Roman Catholics, I do not mean to be disputive here and cause division, but I honestly am perplexed by some of you.

Now, some of you hold her in high esteem. I don't argue you about your love for her. But, I do ask one thing:

In the Roman Catholic ideology, is a person in danger of going to hell if you reject the Roman Catholic ideology of Mary interceeding for you and just reduce her to someone who put her faith in Jesus or even deny a lot of "things" Mary "does" for people?

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity" He didn't, according to the Bible
.
So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but most Christians believe in the Trinity.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.

Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite people to read this information:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.as

 

[namericanboy]

So your saying God allows the saints that passed on the ability to "hear" our prayers..What scripture teaches this..

 

[E.C.]

So your saying God allows the saints that passed on the ability to "hear" our prayers..What scripture teaches this..

I believe Hebrews and Revelation.

 

[Catholic Christian]

So your saying God allows the saints that passed on the ability to "hear" our prayers..What scripture teaches this..

(quote):

One charge made against [asking the saints to pray for us] is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

(source):
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[WarEagle]

Everlasting life.

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that they did not die.

Dead bodies and death are different.

You're right. Death is the event that produces dead bodies. However, that they experienced death and their bodies are dead means that they are dead.

Not sure, need verse for context checking.

1 Thess 4:16

Just so you know, the word translated as "dead" here is nekros, which means literally "dead".

Their bodies die.

Thus, they are dead.

 

[prodromos]

You are thinking of necromancy which is contact of the body. Greek, necros means body.

Correction young man. "Nekros" means "dead". It can also mean "body" in the sense of a corpse, but it is the primary meaning of "dead" which forms the root of "necromancy" as they are trying to gain knowledge from the spirits of the dead and not their corpses.

This is of course quite different from seeking intercessory prayer from those who are alive in Christ. We simply ask them to combine their prayers to our heavenly Father with ours. We do not seek to have them speak to us in order to gain knowledge of future events as is the primary purpose of necromancy.

John