Rejection of Mary as your mediator (2)

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
and the book also calls Mary "full of grace." to some that may mean sinlessness, but im sure you have a different interpretation (you have to of course, you wouldnt want to sound too Roman).

Are you telling me that you can say it with a straight face that "full of grace" means sinlessness?

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

lionroar0 said:
Heard this crap before.

Peace

I expected you to say more than just that. What sort of a post is this? Just a one-liner that what bbbbbbb said was "crap" and without justification too?

Please argue rationally or resist making a one-liner that means nothing but sounds ridiculous and offensive at the same time. And please don't add "peace" when what you said is hardly conducive to peace. Argue if you must, but don't call something crap without argument.

jckstraw72 · Sep 15, 2008

Are you telling me that you can say it with a straight face that "full of grace" means sinlessness?

im telling you that some people read that as an exception given in the Bible. its really not much of a stretch, or at all, really. if she's full of grace then there's no un-graced part of her. full=100%. really not a leap at all. are you really saying you can say with a straight face that God abandoned the Church for like 1700 yrs and let them wallow in false doctrines and supposed Mary worship? thats really some God you got there.

jckstraw72 · Sep 15, 2008

Please argue rationally or resist making a one-liner that means nothing but sounds ridiculous and offensive at the same time.

your last post to me was not an argument. you just asked a question that implied that you thought my statement was stupid. you basically did the exact same thing, except you did it in the form of a question.

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
im telling you that some people read that as an exception given in the Bible. its really not much of a stretch, or at all, really. if she's full of grace then there's no un-graced part of her. full=100%. really not a leap at all. are you really saying you can say with a straight face that God abandoned the Church for like 1700 yrs and let them wallow in false doctrines and supposed Mary worship? thats really some God you got there.

Your argument to support heresy is simple: if it's been done for a blooming long time, let's continue because God couldn't have allowed this heresy to have continued for a thousand years. In philosophy, there's a name for this sort of flawed argument but I don't remember it.

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
your last post to me was not an argument. you just asked a question that implied that you thought my statement was stupid. you basically did the exact same thing, except you did it in the form of a question.

It's true. I wasn't arguing. I was chiding him for writing an offensive meaningless one-liner. We sometimes have to remind posters that they are wrong to insult without a valid argument.

Rhamiel · Sep 15, 2008

Beamishboy

Ho ho ho! That's so funny!!! Scripture also says that He is without sin. Scripture also calls him the unblemished lamb. The spotless one. Scripture never once calls Mary that.

I was not trying to be funny, just to show that the Bible did not literaly mean everyone when it says all have sinned, we all agree Jesus is an exception, the Catholics and Orthodox believe that Mary was another exception, through the grace of God

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
im telling you that some people read that as an exception given in the Bible. its really not much of a stretch, or at all, really. if she's full of grace then there's no un-graced part of her. full=100%. really not a leap at all. are you really saying you can say with a straight face that God abandoned the Church for like 1700 yrs and let them wallow in false doctrines and supposed Mary worship? thats really some God you got there.

For at least hundreds of years, indulgences were sold to the poor people who were led by the RC church to believe that they could buy off their time in purgatory. Because it was believed and practised for hundreds of years, should we allow it to continue because God couldn't have abandoned the church to believe in such a false teaching for that long, could He? But it's been stopped, thanks to Luther.

MamaZ · Sep 15, 2008

Well actually it means favored one.. And full of grace would just be full of Gods undeserved Mercy not sinless.

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

MamaZ said:
Well actually it means favored one.. And full of grace would just be full of Gods undeserved Mercy not sinless.

Excellent point!!! So succinct and yet so full of truth. And I don't mean you are sinless, my dear MamaZ. hehe.

Condor · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
and the book also calls Mary "full of grace." to some that may mean sinlessness, but im sure you have a different interpretation (you have to of course, you wouldnt want to sound too Roman).

She better be full of grace. If not she would be in Hell. If God does not give 100% grace to anybody they will not be saved.

jckstraw72 · Sep 15, 2008

Your argument to support heresy is simple: if it's been done for a blooming long time, let's continue because God couldn't have allowed this heresy to have continued for a thousand years. In philosophy, there's a name for this sort of flawed argument but I don't remember it.

alright, well my God leads the Church, yours doesnt. Ill stick with my God.

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
alright, well my God leads the Church, yours doesnt. Ill stick with my God.

How can you make such a rude statement? It's as rude as if I were to say that my Church follows apostolic teachings as revealed in the NT; yours doesn't. Although I believe that wholeheartedly, it doesn't sound right to say it, does it? You should learn to be careful.

beamishboy · Sep 15, 2008

To declare that Mary is sinless (a very serious statement to make) and to base that purely on the one word which is variously translated "favoured" or "bestowed with grace" is tenuous at best. The same word (albeit a different conjugation) is used of the Ephesian church being bestowed with the same grace in Eph 1:6. But we know from Eph 2 that the Ephesian Christians were once terrible sinners.

The word "full" in "full of grace" is very much disputed. Even if Mary was called "full of grace", we must remember that at that point, she was carrying our Lord. To say that therefore she must have been sinless from the beginning is really stretching it way too much.

And since to declare someone sinless is in fact going against Scriptures, we must have clear unequivocal statement in the Bible that Mary is an exception before we can come up with a doctrine that she is sinless. To base it on one word that doesn't at all mean sinlessness is really, in my opinion, most imprudent.

lionroar0 · Sep 15, 2008

beamishboy said:
How can you make such a rude statement? It's as rude as if I were to say that my Church follows apostolic teachings as revealed in the NT; yours doesn't. Although I believe that wholeheartedly, it doesn't sound right to say it, does it? You should learn to be careful.

He can say it, because at the time there was only one Christian Church. This Church decided what was heresy and what wasn't.

Peace

MamaZ · Sep 15, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
alright, well my God leads the Church, yours doesnt. Ill stick with my God.

wow.. One must wonder who your God is then. For there are many members in the body of Christ with one Head.. Christ

E.C. · Sep 15, 2008

I shall now direct all to the canons from the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431.

Please browse thine sources as thou wishest.

Thekla · Sep 15, 2008

The word "full" in "full of grace" is very much disputed. Even if Mary was called "full of grace", we must remember that at that point, she was carrying our Lord. To say that therefore she must have been sinless from the beginning is really stretching it way too much.

Hi, Beamishboy,

I don't know what you mean by "very much disputed" ...
But Gabriel greets Mary and then says you will conceive (future). The greeting cannot logically apply to presently carrying Christ, as Gabriel states that she will conceive in the future.

RMDY · Sep 15, 2008

Go look up idolatry, idol, idolator in a thesaurus and see all the wonderful definitions associated with those words. You will find that words often associated with those three terms are considered to be associated with Mary in RC theology.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2008

JohnChapter14 said:
Go look up idolatry, idol, idolator in a thesaurus and see all the wonderful definitions associated with those words. You will find that words often associated with those three terms are considered to be associated with Mary in RC theology.

The Crafters of Idols will be stilled.

ooops. wrong verse LOL.

Hebrew 11:10 For he waited the of the foundations having a City of which an Artisan/tecnithV <5079> and architect/dhmiourgoV <1217> the God.

Reve 18:22 and sound of lyre-singers and of entertainers and of flutists and of trumpeters not no shall be being heard in Thee further.And every Artisan/tecnithV <5079> of every craft/tecnhV <5078> not no may be being found in Thee further. And sound of a millstone not no should be being heard in Thee further.

Reve 18:22 and sound of lyre-singers and of entertainers and of flutists and of trumpeters not no shall be being heard in Thee further. And every craftsman/tecnithV <5079> of every craft/tecnhV <5078> not no may be being found in Thee further. And sound of a millstone not no should be being heard in Thee further.

Rejection of Mary as your mediator (2)

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1 John 1:9

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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