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Rejection of evolution correlates with racism

2PhiloVoid

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What makes you think that we don't (or think that you do)? I don't have any problems reading this as the make-believe story of an ancient and foreign culture. I am bothered when people try to inject ancient and alien notions into our modern culture, which is why my original post that started this kerfuffle was a demonstration that the genetic evidence disproves the omnicide implied in this ancient (and I suggest) fictional story.

I think both you and I know that this thread's overall kerfuffle began with a correlation between holding a firm, literal interpretation of Creation as binding and social evidences of manifested racism. Then, we expanded from that base point to the seeming moral implications of believing the Great Flood has a connection with the moral magnitudes of the concepts of Genocide/Omnicide.

But it doesn't end there, does it? No, if we really want to get into this whole Racism/Genocide kerfuffle as it's emerging more and more, then to do the OP topic justice, we'd have to bring in the narrative of the Isrealite Conquest of Canaan. And THAT is where it really gets interesting. When this aspect is added into the equation, I think I've seen folks like yourself begin to really get not only emotionally incensed over the cited tensions but also begin to get much more political about censuring (and censoring) the biblical narratives from having any moral influence in the modern world as well. Am I wrong in this assessment?

I think I can ask this because it all still relates directly to the substance of this thread's OP, which comes down to a supposed clear tension between Bible morality and Modern morality ... ... and I say "supposed" because I often think that there are social and hermeneutical aspects of this whole kerfuffle that folks on all sides fail to attend to.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Except that the Bible does have explicit instructions on slavery, and also, one groups 'false professors' is not another's.
Mark of Cain and Ham is... yeah, that's stuff that really needs to be properly hashed out, I will say.

Explicit instructions in the Old Testament for the Israelites not for Gentiles which was abolished by Christ.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Adding today's science into the Bible breeds hostility, doesn't it?

Oh, look you "poll" me. Cool. Unlike chocolate and peanut butter, science and religion don't go together.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Explicit instructions in the Old Testament for the Israelites not for Gentiles which was abolished by Christ.

Except that Old Testament stuff has been and still is explicitly used by virtually every sect and denomination of Protestants and Catholics and everyone in between for some very horrible behaviour and thoughts, slavery and racism being the main ones (related to this thread).
 
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AV1611VET

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Except that Old Testament stuff has been and still is explicitly used by virtually every sect and denomination of Protestants and Catholics and everyone in between for some very horrible behaviour and thoughts, slavery and racism being the main ones (related to this thread).
Wow.

Imagine that.

What's your point?

Fahrenheit 451 the Bible?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Wow.

Imagine that.

What's your point?

Fahrenheit 451 the Bible?

Not in the slightest.

My point is there in black and white: that the Bible has been used to justify good and bad things throughout history, which is a heck of a lot more than evolution has been used to justify horrible things.

"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." - "Kill them all. God will know his own."
 
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Hans Blaster

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I think both you and I know that this thread's overall kerfuffle began with a correlation between holding a firm, literal interpretation of Creation as binding and social evidences of manifested racism.

No we don't both know that. I was speaking *specifically* about my genetic characterization of the mass-death of the flood on a specific sub-thread.

As for the OP, the study covers *all* religions and likely indicates that the same rejection of modern knowledge (such as evolutionary science) that is common in some anti-intellectual posters on this thread (not you the philosophy geek, of course) is correlated to racism. Creationism is just a symptom. (I do not cast judgements on the racial attitudes of the posters in this thread as I don't know them. There are CF members with disturbing racial attitudes, but I don't recall seeing them here.)


Then, we expanded from that base point to the seeming moral implications of believing the Great Flood has a connection with the moral magnitudes of the concepts of Genocide/Omnicide.

How many times to I need to say this: I was only commenting on the genetic impossibility of the mass drownings of the Noachian flood, not on the morality of Yahweh, or the geology of the flood, or anything else.

But it doesn't end there, does it? No, if we really want to get into this whole Racism/Genocide kerfuffle as it's emerging more and more, then to do the OP topic justice, we'd have to bring in the narrative of the Isrealite Conquest of Canaan. And THAT is where it really gets interesting. When this aspect is added into the equation, I think I've seen folks like yourself begin to really get not only emotionally incensed over the cited tensions but also begin to get much more political about censuring (and censoring) the biblical narratives from having any moral influence in the modern world as well. Am I wrong in this assessment?

As for Joshua's genocide of the Canaanites, there is no historical or archaeological evidence to support that. So while I might question the moral character of the people who created, amplified, and propagated that story, I really don't care and it is not relevant.

I think I can ask this because it all still relates directly to the substance of this thread's OP, which comes down to a supposed clear tension between Bible morality and Modern morality ... ... and I say supposed because I often think that there are social and hermenetical aspects of this whole kerfuffle that folks on all sides fail to attend to.

All I care about here is that people hang on to outdated ideas that are demonstrably bad. I really don't care how they get out of it including if they stay in forms of Christianity.
 
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AV1611VET

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My point is there in black and white: that the Bible has been used to justify good and bad things throughout history, which is a heck of a lot more than evolution has been used to justify horrible things.
Like abortion?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No we don't both know that. I was speaking *specifically* about my genetic characterization of the mass-death of the flood on a specific sub-thread.

As for the OP, the study covers *all* religions and likely indicates that the same rejection of modern knowledge (such as evolutionary science) that is common in some anti-intellectual posters on this thread (not you the philosophy geek, of course) is correlated to racism. Creationism is just a symptom. (I do not cast judgements on the racial attitudes of the posters in this thread as I don't know them. There are CF members with disturbing racial attitudes, but I don't recall seeing them here.)




How many times to I need to say this: I was only commenting on the genetic impossibility of the mass drownings of the Noachian flood, not on the morality of Yahweh, or the geology of the flood, or anything else.



As for Joshua's genocide of the Canaanites, there is no historical or archaeological evidence to support that. So while I might question the moral character of the people who created, amplified, and propagated that story, I really don't care and it is not relevant.



All I care about here is that people hang on to outdated ideas that are demonstrably bad. I really don't care how they get out of it including if they stay in forms of Christianity.

Ok. Thanks for providing a reasonable clarification of your perspective on all of this then. That's helpful.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I can see how this might be a concern, and I think it's a legitimate one with all of the crazy things that go on in our world. But in offering your evaluation of me, you now have me concerned about you. You say you can't see how an ancient account of a so-called act of “divine omnicide” doesn't actually translate into an across the board directive for any Christian simply to drop what they're doing and go and attempt to do likewise. Really?

Why not? A God who can justifiably commit an atrocity can just as justifiably command one... yes or no?

And it's a sin to disobey God.. yes or no?

Now, it's true that only the most fanatic of extremists would think that God would give such a command... but in a world of millions, we only need a few...it only took 19 to hijack a couple of planes...

So, tell me, Bradskii, how do you think any of us should be making moral justifications? Do you think there are any multivariate levels of social, psychological and/or ethical complexities present that we need to work through in order to discern distinctive nuances that may be at play in our moral deliberations? Or, do you instead think that “morality” is a simple thing to figure out?

Depends on who you ask... some people are very nuanced, and others are "The Bible says it; that settles it."

And someone who gets their marching orders from the Almighty Himself, well...

At this point, I want to also bring your attention to the fact that a little earlier in this thread, I and a few other posters were originally discussing the essence of the term “genocide,” a term which I think is more readily comprehensible and more common to our historical understanding of our world than is “omnicide.” The semantic difference between these terms being not too dissimilar from that of conceptually comparing things like “The Holocaust” and “Dr. Strangelove.”

Those words haven't been commonly used in our lexicon until recently because until recently, we haven't had the capacity to commit the actions those words describe... but we must accept that God has always had the ability, and back in the day, the desire, to do it.

I've never really had a problem in discerning between real life and make-believe, or between my own human ethical outlook and a divine one that is clearly encased within the conceptual matrix of an ancient, foreign culture.

Good for you -- but I've heard a rumor that God is eternal and unchanging... what He was, He always will be.

Some people believe that. Go figure.

Whether fortunately or unfortunately, knowing what “God wants” is a complex thing, even a complicated one. This is peculiarly so where the application of moral tropes from the Bible is concerned, and in this, I think we can both acknowledge that it's those who think Christian moral deliberation is a simple thing who have the most problem in sorting out their emotional penchants for unjustified violence from authentic moral actions.

If God condones, commands, or commits it, is it ever unjustified?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why not? A God who can justifiably commit an atrocity can just as justifiably command one... yes or no?
This is a loaded question. So, I won't answer it until you rephrase it in a more neutrally informed, non-Left and/or non-Right leaning form of inquiry. Can you do this...yes or no? If you can, then please do so and then I can move on and address the rest of your post here, TLK. :cool:

And it's a sin to disobey God.. yes or no?

Now, it's true that only the most fanatic of extremists would think that God would give such a command... but in a world of millions, we only need a few...it only took 19 to hijack a couple of planes...

Depends on who you ask... some people are very nuanced, and others are "The Bible says it; that settles it."

And someone who gets their marching orders from the Almighty Himself, well...

Those words haven't been commonly used in our lexicon until recently because until recently, we haven't had the capacity to commit the actions those words describe... but we must accept that God has always had the ability, and back in the day, the desire, to do it.

Good for you -- but I've heard a rumor that God is eternal and unchanging... what He was, He always will be.

Some people believe that. Go figure.

If God condones, commands, or commits it, is it ever unjustified?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Except that Old Testament stuff has been and still is explicitly used by virtually every sect and denomination of Protestants and Catholics and everyone in between for some very horrible behaviour and thoughts, slavery and racism being the main ones (related to this thread).

Really, which of these denominations support slavery and racism? And FYI slavery and racism are not related to this thread at all.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Really, which of these denominations support slavery and racism? And FYI slavery and racism are not related to this thread at all.

Any of the denominations in the American South before and during the American Civil War, so mainly Baptists and Protestant offshoots. The Catholic church in Spain and Portugal through the period of the Atlantic slave trade had no qualms over slavery since the slaves weren't Christian, and even the church of England benefited from slavery through their plantations in the Caribbean.

And... yes, racism is related to this thread. IT'S IN THE THREAD TITLE. And this whole thing between you and me started since you said that evolution promotes racism, a claim you have done nothing to back up.
 
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TLK Valentine

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This is a loaded question. So, I won't answer it until you rephrase it in a more neutrally informed, non-Left and/or non-Right leaning form of inquiry. Can you do this...yes or no? If you can, then please do so and then I can move on and address the rest of your post here, TLK. :cool:

I can -- but honestly, if we cannot agree that the deliberate killing of 99.9999% of all life on the planet would accurately be described as an act of atrocity by any rational, moral being, then I don't see the value of further conversation.

Nevertheless, I will do so -- strictly as an intellectual exercise:

A God that can drown 99.9999% of all life on the planet solely to wipe out a single race of people can easily command His followers to commit acts of similar morality, albeit on a smaller scale... yes or no?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I can -- but honestly, if we cannot agree that the deliberate killing of 99.9999% of all life on the planet would accurately be described as an act of atrocity by any rational, moral being, then I don't see the value of further conversation.
You probably don't mean for it to be the case, but from my view, assuming the dogmatic moral position that you imply here is a cop out from having to face, and do, heavy rational lifting. I could be wrong, but it almost sounds like you just want to use a verbal bully-tactic to establish your unknown ethics as beyond the human pale of argument. I'd expect as such from a Platonist, but not from an atheist.

Nevertheless, I will do so -- strictly as an intellectual exercise:

A God that can drown 99.9999% of all life on the planet solely to wipe out a single race of people can easily command His followers to commit acts of similar morality, albeit on a smaller scale... yes or no?

Maybe it's just me, but it appears we're at a philosophical impasse here, TLK. I can't answer your question because, like so many Christian evangelicals, you too are arbitrarily putting fences around what kinds of questions get to be asked and how they can be answered. To me, this kind of articulation of questions sounds like a communistic measure of subterfuge, an attempted preventive measure of sorts.

But here's the rub with me in all of this: I'm neither going to allow Plato into the Axiological hen-house, nor am I going to allow a dogmatic secularist to present a "just so" position as to what constitutes correct and sane thinking in Modern terms. No, as an Existentialist, I will rather only assume that neither of us fully knows all we could know or should know about about human morality in our shared world and that we both have to start from Ground Zero, especially if we're going to attempt to morally evaluate an Invisible, Transcendent, Holy, All-knowing, and Almighty biblically expressed divine entity who is our Creator and whom neither of us can capture and interrogate, let alone prove is Real.

With the above in mind, it seems to me that in order for me to be able to adequately and fully "judge" such a divine entity, I too would have to be a similar sort of divine being. The problem is--and I'm not sure if you share my axiomatic posture on this--I know that I am not a divine being of any sort, whatsoever. And my self-reflective human limitations prevent me from being able to say whether or not a biblical God of the sort I've summarized above is being "atrocious" if He were to decide that some Noachian period people and some other organisms needed to be removed from the face of the planet as a form of corrective punishment.

Now, obviously, if we were to consider a more usual, human level case of atrocious behavior, perhaps one in which a mere fellow human being is concerned, maybe one concerning some Russian dictator who invades other countries and wantonly mets out death and mayhem, in that instance I think I COULD very well morally judge that other human being for atrocities committed. I think you could, too.

But to morally evaluate a Biblical God? I can't honestly say that my epistemic prowess is such that I could, especially not in the same way. It would be at this point, then, that if further delibrative pressure is placed upon me to judge God anyway, I will ask: By which Ethical system? Is there an Absolute I must use? Do I need to burn my copy of William S. Sahakian's book, Ethics: An Introduction to Theories and Problems, [among other ethics literature] since merely to hold this book in my hands seems to indicate that the jury is still out on exactly which moral paradigm and which ethical system is paramount and the one that all of us MUST adhere to and comply with?
 
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AV1611VET

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I can -- but honestly, if we cannot agree that the deliberate killing of 99.9999% of all life on the planet would accurately be described as an act of atrocity by any rational, moral being, then I don't see the value of further conversation.
If you can give it a label ("atrocity") to support your feeling on the subject, so can I: "necessary evil."
 
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