Reincarnation

[Criada]

Formal Debate- Nemo Neem/Judechild Title:Reincarnation

Topic:Does the Bible and/or Jesus teach reincarnation?

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Stipulations:

Title: Reincarnation
Topic: Does the Bible and/or Jesus teach reincarnation?

1. Negative: judechild.; Affirmative: Nemo Neem
   
2. There will be up to 4 rounds.
3. Alternating posts. Nemo Neem will be the first to post.
4. Time limit between posts will be one week.
   
5. Each post will be no longer than 2000 words.
   
6. Outside sources allowed, acknowledging the 20% rule.
   
7. The debate may begin immediatly.

Please click here for link to the peanut gallery thread: Peanut Gallery: Formal Debate-Reincanation

 

[Criada]

4th March 2011, 06:03 PM
Nemo Neem

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Reincarnation
Debaters: Nemo Neem and judechild

Truly, the early Christians believed in reincarnation. Today, it's a hot topic as to whether it occurs or not - and if it does occur, then it contradicts biblical teaching about living once.

First, we must define what reincarnation is. Reincarnation is believed to occur when the soul or spirit, after the death of the body, comes back to life in a newborn body. This clearly contradicts biblical teaching, when it's assumed, upon Armageddon, the departed soul and the earthy body will be rejoined, thus fulfilling resurrection as taught by Jesus.

Though Christian doctrine rejects the concept of reincarnation, a large number of Christians profess the belief. In a survey by the Pew Forum in 2009, 24% of American Christians expressed a belief in reincarnation. In a 1981 Survey in Europe 31% or regular churchgoing Catholics expressed a belief in reincarnation.

And so, I ask: what happens to newborn babies who suffered SIDS or died in infancy? What about a child? A teenager? Isn't a human supposed to have lived a fulfilling life? Yes, things happen - but why be placed upon the earth with no purpose only to die?

The most obvious objection to reincarnation is that there is no evidence of a physical process by which a personality could survive death and travel to another body, and researchers such as Professor Stevenson recognize this limitation. Possible counter-arguments are that not all people reincarnate, or that most people do not have memorable deaths.

If, as the Bible, or Jesus teaches, "Be perfect as thy Father in Heaven is perfect," then how does a human fulfill this prophecy without a second chance? Not everyone can be perfect upon the first try. Indeed, perhaps if God feels that a human didn't quite make it, He'll grant a second chance to see if the departed can prove themselves.

And now, for a Biblical reference:

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after." (Ecclesiastes 1:9 - 11)

Solomon is saying that everything which exists was either recycled material, or something old made new.

 

[judechild]

“… and I will raise him on the last day” (John 6:54).

I would like to thank the moderating staff, and the forum for hosting this debate. Thanks in particular is due, of course, to my debating partner Nemo Neem; I hope our discussion will be useful for everyone who reads and participates.

Reincarnation is a cruel concept. It is cruel because it destroys human dignity, and cheapens human life.

Nemo asks “what happens to newborn babies who suffered SIDS or died in infancy? What about a child? A teenager? Isn't a human supposed to have lived a fulfilling life?” With this, he has passed judgment on the majority of humanity - which has died in childhood - by asserting that their lives were meaningless. One of the people he has passed his pitying judgment on is my cousin.

My cousin passed away - holding a crucifix - when he was seven after fighting with a severe illness for quite a while. He was so angelically full of love and joy, and though he was sometimes frightened by what was happening, his anxiety never lasted long; he is the undying image in my mind of bravery and of faith. When the Psalmist says “ Even when I walk through a dark valley, I fear no harm for you are at my side; your rod and staff give me courage,” I think of him.

To put it bluntly, how dare anyone say that his life was meaningless, or not “fulfilling.” I will defy anyone to tell me that his love means nothing, and that he was recycled into another consciousness where the bonds that had been formed between us also mean nothing, and have been forgotten and destroyed. Reincarnation is a very cruel system if it is able to destroy love, and make life in itself meaningless.

So I must ask two questions: what percentage of full human dignity do infants, children, and teenagers have? And does human life have value in itself?

Unfortunately, I do not think I can adequately respond to Nemo’s post, because I do not know what he is arguing. He conceded the point that the Bible teaches that we die only once when he says “ [reincarnation] contradicts biblical teaching about living once.” This teaching about living once is communicated explicitly in Hebrew 9:27: “it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment.” And so the first part of the debate is closed (“does the Bible… teach reincarnation?)... or at least, it seems that way until about the second half of Nemo’s post.

Nemo seems to be playing in two keys at once. The cacophony is caused by a mixture of causes for reincarnation. For roughly the first half of his post, Nemo asks rhetorically whether reincarnation is for people who die before reaching adulthood: “what happens to newborn babies who suffered SIDS or died in infancy? What about a child? A teenager?” During the second part, though, Nemo connects it with sanctification: “perhaps if God feels that a human didn't quite make it, He'll grant a second chance to see if the departed can prove themselves.” This speculation reveals our differing understandings of sanctification. In the Catholic view, sanctification is an action of God, not of humans’ ability to “prove themselves.” Nemo will need to clarify what he means by “proving ourselves” before we can continue in this aspect.

I am also uncertain what to think of Nemo’s categorical statement “truly, the early Christians believed in reincarnation.” This is quite an unsupported statement, and the juxtaposition of this with the admission that the Bible does not teach reincarnation is strange. Nemo will again need to clarify what he means.

For my part, over the course of the debate, I will show that the early Church did not believe in reincarnation.

In the Apostolic Period, and the centuries immediately following, no Christian writer supports the idea of reincarnation; the idea is Pre-Socratic and adopted by Plato, but it was never accepted by the Catholic Church. This is because Jesus – Who is the One who gives life “came so that they might have life” (Jn 10:10). Even those who have passed away can live in Him: “Who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him” (1 Thes. 5:10). Jesus, Himself possessing body and spirit, calls my entire being to Salvation: “may you entirely, spirit, soul, and body, be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thes. 5:23).

The idea of reincarnation is in fact repudiated by the early Christians. Exempli gratia, St. Irenaeus – the second century bishop - takes issue with Plato and his “cup of oblivion” explanation for why a person does not remember events of past lives: “For if the cup of oblivion, after it has been drunk, can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done, how, O Plato, do you obtain the knowledge of this fact . . . ?" In the mind of St. Irenaeus, the lack of memory of past events is a proof against the “doctrine of transmigration” (Against Heresies 2:33).

Another early writer, Origen, speaks of reincarnation as “foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures” (Commentary on Matthew, 13:1).

I will now turn attention to Nemo’s unusual treatment of Ecclesiastes.

The writer is not, as Nemo proposes, stating a belief in reincarnation; his purpose for writing is clearly given at the beginning: “vanity of vanities! All things are vanity! What profit has man from all the labor which he toils at under the sun?” (1:2-3). To show his point, the writer describes the mundane: the sun rises and falls, the rivers run, the wind blows, people - both on the internet and off - talk on and on and no one really listens… so that really, for all man’s work, nothing changes. And so, inspired to cause a change, the kingly writer describes the incredible in the next chapter: he builds palaces, plants vineyards, re-routs rivers, drives the exchange-rate for gold into a steep plummet… and for all that, the same thing; nothing changes. And what’s more, it will all be forgotten one day (see 2:16). That is why “there is no remembrance of the old” (1:11). It is not because of reincarnation, but because all the man does alone is vanity, and as useless as “a chase after the wind.”

WWW​

Jesus Christ, true God (“And the Word was God.” John1:1) and true Man (“whom do men say that the Son of man is?” Mt 16:13), died for us on the cross; He rose for us as well so that through baptism we could do the same: “for we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:4). Every effect is of the same nature as its cause, and so, since Jesus was Resurrected, not reincarnated, we may expect the same. We cannot earn heaven; that is impossible because of our nature which is inclined to sin, which is why the Canticle of Zechariah proclaims “Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, He has come to His people and set them free… to set us free from the hands of our enemies… by the forgiveness of our sins.”​

God is a Father, and He will forgive as a father forgives. He does not forgive as an impersonal judge, desiring perfection before legal forgiveness.​

I do not know why God allows newborns to die, or children in the womb, or children like my cousin, or St. Dominic Savio who died when he was 14; but the answer is not to declare that their lives weren’t worth the time. To do so would be to exalt our own worth over the worth of others. ​

Instead, we must learn to see Jesus in those who suffer and die. Christ Himself identified Himself with the suffering, He did not identify Himself with the rich and comfortable. After all, He said “blessed are the poor in spirit” and “blessed are they that mourn” (Mt 5:3,5); He did not say “Blessed are the rich” and “blessed are those who have not suffered.” ​

The person’s body, and the person’s spirit are two aspects of a single being. We see this through Jesus’ healings; Jesus healed the suffering in their souls through healing of their bodies. “There came a leper to Him, beseeching Him, and kneeling down said to Him: If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. / And Jesus having compassion on him, stretched for His hand; and touching him, saith to him: I will. Be thou made clean” (Mk 1:40-41). The man’s leprosy was gone (v. 42), but there is such a wonderful ambiguity as to what “and he was made clean” can mean.​

To conclude, the person who dies at a young age is a picture of Christ - an innocent victim of the effects of sin. The Holy Innocents (the children slain by Herod as he sought the Christ Child) are honored in the Catholic Church as martyrs because they did not only die for Jesus; they died in His place. Nemo may say that their deaths were frivolous, but in truth they possess a prophet-like dignity imbuing their persons; they certainly did not die for nothing. ​

Holy Innocents, pray for us.​

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi guys.

Is this debate still active?

Mark
Staff Supervisor

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It appears that this debate has stalled; I'm closing the thread. If the participants wish to continue, we can reopen it.

Mark