Regarding the necessary instruction in Theology

[whitetiger1]

You're confused? The statement--yours--hit the nail on the head. And it's refreshing, too, considering all the posts we read regularly in which somebody or other is insisting that his POV is absolutely the truth and no one with any sense can deny it. Once we all realize that we cannot be absolutely free from having made a mistake, we can turn to debating what is true according to all the evidence available to us. It's all a matter of probabilities in the end.



No. Not so




What else would you call the furious inter-denominational discussions and accusations we have around here?




Nothing I said added up to THAT!



or that.

Than Christianity is a failed mission. If God really created the universe and everything in it and He is not a God of chaos than He should be powerful enough to give objective truth not let everyone find their own from Scripture and hope they are right

 

[Albion]

Than Christianity is a failed mission.

Not in the least. It could be the one and only true religion. In fact, I am persuaded that it is.

If God really created the universe and everything in it and He is not a God of chaos than He should be powerful enough to give objective truth

From all that I have learned, He did just that.

not let everyone find their own from Scripture and hope they are right

He COULD have made us all robots, I suppose, but it appears that we have been given mental faculties sufficient to sort through information and form opinions.

 

[Montalban]

I'm afraid we can't go and ask them, don't you think?

Yes we can - the church still teaches what they teach

In any case, you don't study somebody because he's absolutely right in everything. Even the ECF erred from time to time.

So you propose a system of an individual who errs from time to time over a collection of people who err from time to time?

How's that better?

 

[whitetiger1]

Not in the least. It could be the one and only true religion. In fact, I am persuaded that it is.

How do you know for sure?

From all that I have learned, He did just that.

We all can use a good laugh, thanks. With all the little "truths" it's anything but that, there is no single truth agreed on anywhere.

He COULD have made us all robots, I suppose, but it appears that we have been given mental faculties sufficient to sort through information and form opinions.

So again no real truth just opinions. This isn't about being robots, if your God is the God than there should be somewhere that has ibjective truth not just blindly bumbleing through life hoping that we get it right, that is not truth.

 

[Montalban]

Adam's sin was that by eating the fruit he could obtain knowledge.

This same sin of pride is going on today with people being their own pope when it comes to discerning the 'truth' of the bible.

 

[whitetiger1]

Adam's sin was that by eating the fruit he could obtain knowledge.

This same sin of pride is going on today with people being their own pope when it comes to discerning the 'truth' of the bible.

Boy do I ever see that

 

[Albion]

How do you know for sure?

The weight of the evidence (the consistency of Scripture, the historical record dealing with the events and personalities described there, and much else).

So again no real truth just opinions.

That's what you said before, but I don't agree. There is absolutely no reason to think that real truth is not there and available to us.

if your God is the God than there should be somewhere that has objective truth not just blindly bumbleing through life hoping that we get it right, that is not truth.

I completely agree.

 

[Albion]

people being their own pope when it comes to discerning the 'truth' of the bible.

No one BUt the Pope thinks he has been given the power of being infallible.

 

[whitetiger1]

The weight of the evidence (the consistency of Scripture, the historical record dealing with the events and personalities described there, and much else).

How do you really know for sure, how can you be absolutely sure.

That's what you said before, but I don't agree. There is absolutely no reason to think that real truth is not there and available to us.

If it's there than it should be apparent, there should be a way or somewhere to turn to get objective truth (I learned from Evangelicals here that such a thing does not exist in any form because if it did it would be wrong so we have to find our own version). Just from the many different Christian truths being presented here it can be seen it is not apparent.

I completely agree.

Interesting

 

[whitetiger1]

No one BUt the Pope thinks he has been given the power of being infallible.

That's not quite true, I know it's been three days since my vacation from Catholicism but I don't think it changed that fast. Catholics believe the Pope is only infallible in a very narrow window not all the time and there are many requirements for such to happen.

 

[Montalban]

No one BUt the Pope thinks he has been given the power of being infallible.

Actually he and his church do.

I don't see how your system is different in that you are the judge of the 'weight of evidence'.

 

[Albion]

How do you really know for sure, how can you be absolutely sure.

Let's not go around in circles. I answered that question in #47 and in a more basic way about ten back. you're not going to ask me how I really, really, really, really, know for sure next, are you?

If it's there than it should be apparent, there should be a way or somewhere to turn to get objective truth (I learned from Evangelicals here that such a thing does not exist in any form

Well, of course there is. You may have misunderstood the "evangelicals" you referred to, but those I have read posts from on CF seem to be clear enough about this.

 

[Montalban]

Let's not go around in circles.

That's the nature of the 'logic' of your argument though.

You discern the truth. How? You do! How? You do. And so on.

 

[Albion]

Actually he and his church do.

No one but the pope thinks he (the one doing the thinking) considers himself to be endowed with infallibility.

I don't see how your system is different in that you are the judge of the 'weight of evidence'.

That's the very point you guys aren't getting. It isn't different as far as knowing with absolute certainty that your judgment is correct. We are all in the same boat there, but there are greater and lesser probabilities. The word of God, for instance, is much more likely to be correct than the pretentions of the bishop of Rome, for example.

 

[Dorothea]

As I said before, we were given the fullness of the Truth by Christ and then instilled in us, the Church at Pentacost by the Holy Spirit. We know that those greats in the OT knew God and knew how to live and what He willed for the righteous people in the OT. This is the same for the NT righteous and those pious and holy people who followed these righteous people. I truly believe this. If there is no real truth in what Christ taught His people, then I don't see how one is to grow and gain union with God. Just how I see it.

 

[Albion]

That's the nature of the 'logic' of your argument though.

On the contrary, it is only the questions being asked of me that are in danger of doing that by repeating and repeating what has already been covered.

You discern the truth. How? You do! How? You do. And so on.

Weight of the evidence.

 

[Dorothea]

I was just reading a part (well, my hubby was reading it to me while I was lying down during my acupuncture treatment) in the book about Fr. Seraphim Rose, that I thought was really important. I'll share it here:

"True Christianity," he stated in a lecture, "does not mean just having the right opinions about Christianity--this is not enough to save one's soul. St. Tikhon (of Zadonsk) says: 'If someone should say that true faith is the correct holding and confession of correct dogmas, he would be telling the truth, for a believer absolutely needs the Orthodox holding and confession of dogmas. But this knowledge and confession by itself does not make a man a faithful and true Christian. The keeping and confession of Orthodox dogmas is always to be found in true faith in Christ, but the true faith of Christ is not always to be found in the confession of Orthodoxy... The knowledge of correct dogmas is in the mind, and it is often fruitless, arrogant, and proud... The true faith in Christ is in the heart, and it is fruitful, humble, patient, loving, merciful, compassionate, hungering and thirsting for righteousness; it withdraws from worldly lusts and clings to God alone, strives and seeks always for what is heavenly and eternal, struggles against every sin, and constantly seeks and begs help from God for this.' And he then quotes Blessed Augustine, who teaches: 'The faith of a Christian is with love; faith without love is that of the devil.' St. James in his Epistle tells us that the demons also believe and tremble (James 2:19).

"St. Tikhon, therefore, gives us a start in understanding what Orthodoxy is: it is something first of all of the heart, not just the mind, something living and warm, not abstract and cold, something that is learned and practiced in life, not just in school."

*from the book Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works


Incidentally, while listening to this being read to me today, I got choked up...it truly touched my heart.

 

[whitetiger1]

Let's not go around in circles. I answered that question in #47 and in a more basic way about ten back. you're not going to ask me how I really, really, really, really, know for sure next, are you?

Considered it ask. So far it's just you opining nothing objective.

Well, of course there is. You may have misunderstood the "evangelicals" you referred to, but those I have read posts from on CF seem to be clear enough about this.

Actually no, everyone has a different truth here. There is nothing unified in Christian truth as I see anymore. I was Catholic but after you all showed me there is no objective truth I been reduced to wondering around and asking what is Christian truth. The answer seems to be what we make of it from Scripture and maybe we might get it right

 

[whitetiger1]

That's the very point you guys aren't getting. It isn't different as far as knowing with absolute certainty that your judgment is correct. We are all in the same boat there, but there are greater and lesser probabilities. The word of God, for instance, is much more likely to be correct than the pretentions of the bishop of Rome, for example.

How do you know, because you said so?

 

[whitetiger1]

If there is no real truth in what Christ taught His people, then I don't see how one is to grow and gain union with God.

This It seems from many here there is not.