Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Albion]

Again, you say it is true.

That's right.

But on what do you base that assertion.

It's easy to ascertain whether or not any church accepts those books. Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc etc. all accept these books as God's revelation.

And, BTW, we're not talking about versions of the Bible, or interpretations of the Bible, but about the books themselves. That's what Sola SCRIPTURA refers to.

 

[Chandler50]

That's right.


It's easy to ascertain whether or not any church accepts those books. Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc etc. all accept these books as God's revelation.

And, BTW, we're not talking about versions of the Bible, or interpretations of the Bible, but about the books themselves. That's what Sola SCRIPTURA refers to.

I know this, all of the examples I gave accept different books as inspired, interpretation is a whole other ball game. Again, Catholics believe seven more books are inspired then Protestants. Coptic Christians accept even more books as authoritative. Eastern Orthodox Christians accept different books. Your argument that the 66 books are universally accepted is a red-herring. If you claim a Bible is authoritative that is missing books inspired by God, then you have a partial authority, not a complete one. Then even more so sense you also deny oral tradition as well.

 

[tulipbee]

You can view the entire list from the apostle St Peter to now at this link:
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=List_of_Popes

St. Irenaeus has been wrong on many case and yet Catholic makes his guesswork a tradition. That's not good. On top of that, more guesswork when they say, "cannot be positive whether this identification of the pope as being the Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21 goes back to an ancient and reliable source, or originated later on account of the similarity of the name."
I've about had it it with "might be", "could be", "maybe", "we think" and then they make it a tradition unauthorized by God. Are ya'll kidding us?

 

[Chandler50]

St. Irenaeus has been wrong on many case and yet Catholic makes his guesswork a tradition. That's not good. On top of that, more guesswork when they say, "cannot be positive whether this identification of the pope as being the Linus mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:21 goes back to an ancient and reliable source, or originated later on account of the similarity of the name."
I've about had it it with "might be", "could be", "maybe", "we think" and then they make it a tradition unauthorized by God. Are ya'll kidding us?

Then there is no way you can view the Bible as authoritative, because it was this group of men that established the Bible we know today.

 

[tulipbee]

I know this, I all of the examples I gave accept different books as inspired, interpretation as a whole other ball game. Again, Catholics believe seven more books are inspired then Protestants. Coptic Christians accept even more books as authortative. Eastern Orthodox Christians accept different books. Your argument that the 66bools are universally accepted is a red-herring. If you claim a Bible is authoritative that is missing books inspired by God, then you have a partial authority, not a complete one. Then even more so sense you also deny oral tradition as well.

66 books is the one. 73 book isn't the one. 66 book has been scientifically proven that it even refutes the atheists. The proof are here: http://www.theomatics.com it proves the other books are not inspired by God but the RCC say it is anyway cause some Pope liked it.

 

[tulipbee]

Then there is no way you can view the Bible as authoritative, because it was this group of men that established the Bible we know today.

You just blew it. Praise God brought the Reformation period.

 

[Goatee]

73 or 66. The most important thing is that Jesus Christ is the Son of the True living God!!

Petty arguments over books and Sola Scripture are worthless. Its what you do with your love of God that matters! Jesus has given us the Keys to heaven! We have to use them properly!

God doesn't end on the very last page of the Bible! He is not wrapped up in its covers! He lives in us all. In our Souls, our Hearts. The Kingdom of God is within us.

Too many words can mean getting lost. I for one aim to concentrate on what Jesus taught us. He is the living 'Bible'.

 

[tulipbee]

73 or 66. The most important thing is that Jesus Christ is the Son of the True living God!!

Petty arguments over books and Sola Scripture are worthless. Its what you do with your love of God that matters! Jesus has given us the Keys to heaven! We have to use them properly!

God doesn't end on the very last page of the Bible! He is not wrapped up in its covers! He lives in us all. In our Souls, our Hearts. The Kingdom of God is within us.

Too many words can mean getting lost. I for one aim to concentrate on what Jesus taught us. He is the living 'Bible'.

Brushing the bible aside agian?

 

[Goatee]

Brushing the bible aside agian?

Your words not mine. The Bible is important but living out the Words of Jesus is more important!!

 

[Albion]

I know this, I all of the examples I gave accept different books as inspired, interpretation as a whole other ball game. Again, Catholics believe seven more books are inspired then Protestants. Coptic Christians accept even more books as authortative. Eastern Orthodox Christians accept different books. Your argument that the 66bools are universally accepted is a red-herring.

Nonsense. Do all of these accept the same 66 or not? Well, yes, they do. That's about as much of a consensus among the thousands of denominations in existence as there is.

And, as already noted, even those who want to call the Apocryphal books, or some of them, inspired...do not base any dogmas upon them. So what's the reason for arguing over including them in a discussion about where to turn for divine guidance?

But let's not forget that you don't offer any alternative that's better, the matter of the Apocrypha aside. Each of the Catholic churches has a different idea of what Tradition teaches from each of the others.

What's believed in...is the WORD Tradition, not Tradition itself.

Finally, that's to say nothing of the many irregularities and contradictions that each of them has built into knowing what counts as Tradition! We really ought not to be discussing Tradition as an alternative to Scripture or supplement to it unless and until we can point to a coherent standard rather than each church picking whatever legend, custom, or opinion from the past that it wants to use in order to say "THAT's what the Church has always believed."

In short, you have offered nothing that improves upon the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Conclusion
​

Utilizing all facets available, I find it undeniable that Jesus, the apostles, and the early church fathers taught and understood that our authority derives from both holy tradition and holy scripture. There is simply no evidence for the claim that the Bible alone is sufficient for our authority. If we truly believe that God is living and active in our lives today, then limiting His divine revelation to a group of seventy-three written works outside of His explicit mandate is heresy. God's word is not stagnant and neither is his authority; they are living and active, revealed through holy tradition and holy scripture.

No need to guess at Christs' view on sola-scriptura hammering of the church magisterium

Christ's doctrine on "sola scriptura testing" - resulted in hammering the traditions of the Jewish magisterium of His day and promoting the authority of the Word of God - yes even as found in the Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

 

[BobRyan]

I know this, I all of the examples I gave accept different books as inspired, interpretation as a whole other ball game. Again, Catholics believe seven more books are inspired then Protestants. Coptic Christians accept even more books as authortative. Eastern Orthodox Christians accept different books. Your argument that the 66bools are universally accepted is a red-herring. If you claim a Bible is authoritative that is missing books inspired by God, then you have a partial authority, not a complete one. Then even more so sense you also deny oral tradition as well.

Which one of the 66 books do any of the groups you listed reject??

 

[ebedmelech]

Exactly, God's word. Not written scripture.

Really?

Listen to what Jesus did when He started His ministry...Luke 4:16-21:
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.
17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Why did Jesus read from Isaiah and pronounce to those people in that synagogue that "today THIS SCRIPTURE is fulfilled in your hearing"? Jesus knew what you evidently don't know...those books written by the prophets held God's authority and were directed by God to be written!

*If scripture is not the authority for the church (God's people) why is Psalm 119 in the bible?

*Why did God tell Moses to write His words in a book...when He gave Moses the Law? Exodus 34:27:
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Once again (as you simply want to overlook), Why is Jesus constantly appealing scripture as THE AUTHORITY?

*John 7:37, 38:
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”

Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 44:3:
3 ‘For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring
And My blessing on your descendants;

The apostle Peter, on Pentecost quotes scripture...Acts 2:15-36...lets see how many passages he appeals to as authority of what's happening:
15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit And they shall prophesy.
19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above And signs on the earth below, Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood, Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Joel 2:28-32)
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 For David says of Him, ‘I saw the Lord always in my presence; For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’ (Psalm 16:8-11)
29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’ (Psalm 110:1)
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

You can hold your stand (as you continue to do), but all you're showing is that you would rather trust your church rather than scripture. Yet I know many Catholics who remain in your church but they trust scripture over your churches many erroneous teachings. I for one am thankful for much of the history we have from the RCC BEFORE they began to stray from the word of God (the bible).

I thank God for men like John Calvin, Jan Hus, Martin Luther, William Tyndale,and Ulrich Zwingli!!! Just a few men who stood against your church so that people were able to trust God's word instead of follow erroneous RCC church teachings that in many cases were exactly what Jesus said "traditions of men".

Your church does exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 15:1-8 which is written for our instruction:
Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ (Exodus 20:12) and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.’ (Exodus 21:17)
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,”
6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’” (Isaiah 29:13)
Notice (again), Jesus quotes scripture as the authority over the erroneous teaching of the Pharisees, just as the MANY MEN of the Reformation did to call people to the scriptures OVER the teachings of your church or any other church!

 

[Chandler50]

Finally, that's to say nothing of the many irregularities and contradictions that each of them has built into knowing what counts as Tradition!
_______
In short, you have offered nothing that improves upon the Bible.

Really? Does the Bible mention the issue of abortion. Does the Bible mention in vitro fertilization. The answer is no. You can try to create an answer for these issues from random passages; but the fact of the matter is that those issue are not explicitly addressed. Do you think God would leave us high and dry, or would he leave a church on earth that would be able to address these issues?

Also, the Church has never changed an infallibly taught doctrine, ever. There has never been 'contradictions' ion tradition that have been taught as infallible. If you know of any please point them out.

 

[Chandler50]

Which one of the 66 books do any of the groups you listed reject??

I clearly stated that they all do accept the 66 books, and that the question is a red-herring. This is because the issue is that adhering to even one less book then what is inspired would result in only holding only a partial authority (if sola scriptura is your thing).

 

[Chandler50]

Really?

Listen to what Jesus did when He started His ministry...Luke 4:16-21:
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.
17 And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”
20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Why did Jesus read from Isaiah and pronounce to those people in that synagogue that "today THIS SCRIPTURE is fulfilled in your hearing"? Jesus knew what you evidently don't know...those books written by the prophets held God's authority and were directed by God to be written!

*If scripture is not the authority for the church (God's people) why is Psalm 119 in the bible?

*Why did God tell Moses to write His words in a book...when He gave Moses the Law? Exodus 34:27:
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Once again (as you simply want to overlook), Why is Jesus constantly appealing scripture as THE AUTHORITY?

*John 7:37, 38:
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”

Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 44:3:
3 ‘For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring
And My blessing on your descendants;

The apostle Peter, on Pentecost quotes scripture...Acts 2:15-36...lets see how many passages he appeals to as authority of what's happening:
15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit And they shall prophesy.
19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above And signs on the earth below, Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood, Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.
21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ (Joel 2:28-32)
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 For David says of Him, ‘I saw the Lord always in my presence; For He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 ‘Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, Nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
28 ‘You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’ (Psalm 16:8-11)
29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’ (Psalm 110:1)
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

You can hold your stand (as you continue to do), but all you're showing is that you would rather trust your church rather than scripture. Yet I know many Catholics who remain in your church but they trust scripture over your churches many erroneous teachings. I for one am thankful for much of the history we have from the RCC BEFORE they began to stray from the word of God (the bible).

I thank God for men like John Calvin, Jan Hus, Martin Luther, William Tyndale,and Ulrich Zwingli!!! Just a few men who stood against your church so that people were able to trust God's word instead of follow erroneous RCC church teachings that in many cases were exactly what Jesus said "traditions of men".

Your church does exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 15:1-8 which is written for our instruction:
Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ (Exodus 20:12) and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.’ (Exodus 21:17)
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,”
6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’” (Isaiah 29:13)
Notice (again), Jesus quotes scripture as the authority over the erroneous teaching of the Pharisees, just as the MANY MEN of the Reformation did to call people to the scriptures OVER the teachings of your church or any other church!

I did not see one verse that stated the written scripture is our only authority. Sola scriptura in not about whether the Bible is an authority; obviously it is because it is inspired by God. However, the fact that Christ gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter and installed a church on earth shows that His revelation has not ceased. Otherwise, why start a church? More, why start a church specifically left in the charge of one man? Because Christ has not ceased His revelation and uses the Church a conduit.

 

[Chandler50]

No need to guess at Christs' view on sola-scriptura hammering of the church magisterium

Christ's doctrine on "sola scriptura testing" - resulted in hammering the traditions of the Jewish magisterium of His day and promoting the authority of the Word of God - yes even as found in the Ten Commandments.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

The elders consisting of scribes and pharise es are in fact the "magisterium" even Paul admits to this. And Jesus shows how they claim to "sit in the chair of Moses" as church magisterium .


Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. (Matthew 23:1-3)

Did you even read my post of just skip to the conclusion? Because addressed Mark chapter seven in length under section two, 'The Bible Endorses Holy Tradition.'

 

[Chandler50]

You just blew it. Praise God brought the Reformation period.

How did I 'blow it'. I stated that the 66 books you hold as authoritative was established by the Catholic church (with an additional seven that Martin Luther removed on his own authority, not God's) and if you do not view the Church as an authority, then you logically could not hold anything the Church does as authoritative, to include your current biblical canon. Your argument falls apart if the Catholic Church is not an authority.

 

[Chandler50]

There are lots of warnings about the traditions of man, for example: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition G3862 of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Col 2:8

A discussion of this sort should focus on discerning the difference between what is of God and what is of man. Jesus clearly teaches: "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." Mark 7:8 "You ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone." Luke 11:42

The tradition I speak of is church tradition or 'Holy Tradition'. This is not the same a traditions of man because it originates from God. Obviously, all tradition of man is inherently bad because we all are sinful, but Holy Tradition that originates form God is not.

 

[Chandler50]

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

Sola Scriptura is sufficient, if you truly believe!

I am afraid I will need more then a cute acronym to be convinced. Besides, with that logical the Bible is useless for someone who passes away on the moon.