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As far as salvation and purification. The death on the cross and the resurrection.
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As far as salvation and purification. The death on the cross and the resurrection.Catholics, and indeed all traditional Christians, view it in more holistic terms. It isn't a matter of using only Sacred Scripture or only something else. It's a simple recognition that Sacred Scripture doesn't necessarily contain all things necessary to guide one's life.
Oh? Interesting. I've met people who think a given practice should not conflict with Sacred Scripture. So long as it doesn't, it's fine. Others insist the practice must be explicitly authorized by Sacred Scripture. As with so many things concerning Protestantism, there is no consensus here.
Okay, so that's Purgatory as you see it.
What is "the completed work" of Our Lord in your view?
We could quote the meaning of Purgatory from the CCC, but why don t you tell us what the completed or finished work of Christ is according to Scripture. It would enlighten all.What is "the completed work" of Our Lord in your view?
We could quote the meaning of Purgatory from the CCC, but why don t you tell us what the completed or finished work of Christ is according to Scripture. It would enlighten all.
What's positive about Purgatory?
I would say that the simple thought of purgatory diminishes the power of the purification of the blood of Jesus. It is simply saying that Jesus' blood is not enough. Therefore you must go through another purification process in purgatory.
Well, that's not very specific but I guess it's good enough.As far as salvation and purification. The death on the cross and the resurrection.
So contrary to common misconception, Purgatory is not a "second chance". Eternal forgiveness is already assured. It's simply the means by which impurities are purged. If the Church had called this "Purgation" as opposed to "Purgatory", I think it would be better understood by non-Catholics. Would've, should've, could've, I guess.Catechism of the Catholic Church said:The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
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1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
I'm not the one who introduced that term into this discussion. Someone else did. I asked that person to define it. And he did... somewhat.We could quote the meaning of Purgatory from the CCC, but why don t you tell us what the completed or finished work of Christ is according to Scripture. It would enlighten all.
And what if Scripture says that the person s *works* are put through the furnace just like gold, silver, and precious stones.That the person is saved (as through fire).
And what if Scripture says that the person s *works* are put through the furnace just like gold, silver, and precious stones.
Yeah? Well Mormons believe that if you do enough good deeds you can become a god of your own world. Yet they claim to get that information from the same place Roman Catholics do.Well, that's not very specific but I guess it's good enough.
With respect, my gripe with certain types of Protestantism is that it is simplistic to the point of being reductionist. You sin, you ask forgiveness, you move on, that's the end of it.
Um, no. That's not the end of it.
If a small boy smashes out his neighbor's window, the neighbor can decide to forgive. And is that the end of it? The boy has forgiveness. Can he move on?
No, the window is still smashed out. What happens with that?
So the boy agrees to mow lawns all summer until he's saved up enough money to pay the neighbor back for the cost of the window. Is it over now?
No, of course not. How does the neighbor know the boy won't do the same thing again later on? The boy genuinely promises from his heart that he won't do this again. So NOW it's settled.
Sin is analogous to that. If you sin, you can seek forgiveness from God. And He is gracious and just to forgive.
But that's not the end of the story. Logically it can't be. There's still the effects of your sin. Sure, you've been forgiven for sinning. But the harm you caused lingers.
Now, in life you can address this with Confession and acts of penitence to purify your soul. You've already been forgiven. But there are disciplines (purifications one might say) to be addressed.
However, Purgatory is the means by which this is addressed after death. As the Catechism would have it...
So contrary to common misconception, Purgatory is not a "second chance". Eternal forgiveness is already assured. It's simply the means by which impurities are purged. If the Church had called this "Purgation" as opposed to "Purgatory", I think it would be better understood by non-Catholics. Would've, should've, could've, I guess.
Still, point is that this mortal must put on immortality. This corruptible must be made incorruptible. Purgatory.
If you're interested in discussing Mormons, start a new thread. They have absolutely nothing to do with this one and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to change the subject.Yeah? Well Mormons believe that if you do enough good deeds you can become a god of your own world. Yet they claim to get that information from the same place Roman Catholics do.
We could quote the meaning of Purgatory from the CCC, but why don t you tell us what the completed or finished work of Christ is according to Scripture. It would enlighten all.
No, it absolutely has to do with this thread. Mormons don't believe in Sola scriptura. They also believe God inspired their prophets the exact same way Catholics believe the Church and the pope does. How can you know for sure that the Mormon Church is not the "one true church" Jesus was speaking of?If you're interested in discussing Mormons, start a new thread. They have absolutely nothing to do with this one and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to change the subject.
Again, if you're so determined to discuss the Mormons, start a new thread. I will not participate in a discussion about them in this thread.No, it absolutely has to do with this thread. Mormons don't believe in Sola scriptura. They also believe God inspired their prophets the exact same way Catholics believe the Church and the pope does. How can you know for sure that the Mormon Church is not the "one true church" Jesus was speaking of?
Ok...then I will rephrase my question. How do you know that the Roman Catholic Church is "the one true church" that Jesus was speaking about and not other religions who make the same claim for similar reasons?Again, if you're so determined to discuss the Mormons, start a new thread. I will not participate in a discussion about them in this thread.
Exactly. And that is precisely why Purgatory is incompatible with the Gospel. Since Christ is the propitiation for our sins, since the believer's sins have been remitted, since we have been justified by grace through faith (and not by works of righteousness which we have done), since we already possess the imputed righteousness of Christ, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of eternal life, what Christ will do is perfect all the saints (those saved by grace) at the Resurrection/Rapture.I know that Jesus was delivered over to death for the sake of ours sins, and raised for our justification.
I already tried that one. They didn't budge.Exactly. And that is precisely why Purgatory is incompatible with the Gospel. Since Christ is the propitiation for our sins, since the believer's sins have been remitted, since we have been justified by grace through faith (and not by works of righteousness which we have done), since we already possess the imputed righteousness of Christ, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of eternal life, what Christ will do is perfect all the saints (those saved by grace) at the Resurrection/Rapture.
Christ has already done everything necessary to pay the sin debt, and the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, keeps on cleansing us from all our sins. There is nothing left to be done in any imaginary Purgatory. But our works will be tested by "fire". That which is gold, silver and precious stone, will be accepted. Everything else will be burned up. Accordingly there will be rewards and crowns, or no rewards and no crowns.
Exactly. And that is precisely why Purgatory is incompatible with the Gospel.
The Church Fathers had theology, liturgy and customs that I believe can only refer to the Catholic faith. Needless to say, they were not evangelical Christians. In fact, I have my doubts that they would even recognize evangelical Christian services AS worship. Further they affirm as commonplace orthodoxy things many evangelicals will bend over backwards to deny. There are other reasons but, call me cynical, something tells me you'll probably find a way to reject those too.Ok...then I will rephrase my question. How do you know that the Roman Catholic Church is "the one true church" that Jesus was speaking about and not other religions who make the same claim for similar reasons?
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