Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

[Chandler50]

If one less book was taken out or one more book was added then all of the 66 book falls apart making the numbers not add up. The numbers adding up to PERFECTION is what hold the 66 books together. It's more like if one letter was added or subtracted , it falls apart.

And where is that found in scripture, or tradition for that matters. Oh wait... It is found no where. Please use serious arguments that you can back-up with evidence.

 

[Chandler50]

Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Again, I addressed Mark Chapter seven in my OP. The apostles made a very clear distinction to condemn the traditions of man, not of the Church.

 

[Chandler50]

The Protestant church is the Catholic church. The RCC is just another denomination that offsprung the church. It all started with a pope they're not sure if it is the original second Pope. Some chief turned it into a tradition against the bible and the RCC started. How many denomination calls themselves the true church?

How many can trace their lineage to Christ Himself? Only the RCC. Your view is not original. St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote about heretics who attempted to start their own 'denominations' in the 200's outside of the Catholic Church. I will also be so kind as to provide you the reference I am using for my assertion:

“You have written also, that on my account the Church has now a portion of herself in a state of dispersion, although the whole people of the Church are collected, and united, and joined to itself in an undivided concord: they alone have remained without, who even, if they had been within, would have had to be cast out. Nor does the Lord, the protector of His people, and their guardian, suffer the wheat to be snatched from His floor; but the chaff alone can be separated from the Church, since also the apostle says, For what if some of them have departed from the faith? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God of none effect? God forbid; for God is true, but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4 And the Lord also in the Gospel, when disciples forsook Him as He spoke, turning to the twelve, said, Will you also go away? then Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the word of eternal life; and we believe, and are sure, that You are the Son of the living God. John 6:67-69 Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear and obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (St. Cyprian of Carthage - Letters 68:8 - 254 A.D.)

 

[tulipbee]

How many can trace their lineage to Christ Himself? Only the RCC. Your view is not original. St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote about heretics who attempted to start their own 'denominations' in the 200's outside of the Catholic Church. I will also be so kind as to provide you the reference I am using for my assertion:

“You have written also, that on my account the Church has now a portion of herself in a state of dispersion, although the whole people of the Church are collected, and united, and joined to itself in an undivided concord: they alone have remained without, who even, if they had been within, would have had to be cast out. Nor does the Lord, the protector of His people, and their guardian, suffer the wheat to be snatched from His floor; but the chaff alone can be separated from the Church, since also the apostle says, For what if some of them have departed from the faith? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God of none effect? God forbid; for God is true, but every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4 And the Lord also in the Gospel, when disciples forsook Him as He spoke, turning to the twelve, said, Will you also go away? then Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the word of eternal life; and we believe, and are sure, that You are the Son of the living God. John 6:67-69 Peter speaks there, on whom the Church was to be built, teaching and showing in the name of the Church, that although a rebellious and arrogant multitude of those who will not hear and obey may depart, yet the Church does not depart from Christ; and they are the Church who are a people united to the priest, and the flock which adheres to its pastor. Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” (St. Cyprian of Carthage - Letters 68:8 - 254 A.D.)

St. Cyprian of Carthage is like the Billy Graham letters. They both are the opinions of men. I read them lighly cause the Word doesn't confirm neither. The forefathers were unreliable and the popes shouldn't convert their writings into man made traditions. To start over is to be reformed and use made from God 66 book bible. RCC are like eating 50 cents half pounder McDonalds filled with cheap fillers to trick men into a healthy meal.

 

[tulipbee]

And where is that found in scripture, or tradition for that matters. Oh wait... It is found no where. Please use serious arguments that you can back-up with evidence.

You have just been refuted by Ivan panin's recent discoveries or http://www.theomatics.com Serious skeptics like you ought to peek at https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Ivan+panin&t=ftas&ia=about Where even the atheists can't meet the million dollar challenge of proving it wrong.

 

[Chandler50]

O ye of little faith.

What do you base your 'faith' on? My faith is based off Christ and his teachings spread throughout the world through His apostles.

By the way, did Christ come to earth, stay hidden, give His instructions to His apostles in private, then die? No. He had a public ministry where he proved to the masses through miracles that He is in fact God. He did not expect us the go on 'faith' that He is God, he proved that He is God.

Christ does not call us to be mindless drones defaulting on 'faith' to justify ignorance; He expects us to use our brains to discern between truth and false doctrine.

So by using my brain I know that I can have faith through Holy Tradition because the apostles wrote:

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." - Roman 10:17 (The Greek term here for 'word' is rhematos, which means spoken word, not written word).

If you do not subscribe the Holy Tradition (oral tradition) or the authority of the RCC, how could you ever hear the spoken word of Christ? How could you ever have faith?

 

[tulipbee]

Three men gets together and vote for the pastor to lead a newly planted church is sufficient. I'm done with my pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor... all the way back to broken apostic successions. The Protestants can read the bible by themselves. RCC wants to translate the bible for them so they can't learn the real truths. the RCC will lose profits.

 

[Chandler50]

St. Cyprian of Carthage is like the Billy Graham letters. They both are the opinions of men. I read them lighly cause the Word doesn't confirm neither. The forefathers were unreliable and the popes shouldn't convert their writings into man made traditions. To start over is to be reformed and use made from God 66 book bible. RCC are like eating 50 cents half pounder McDonalds filled with cheap fillers to trick men into a healthy meal.

So if you treat letter by the early church fathers (men who knew the apostles directly) the same as you would a letter from any preacher today? Then why do you treat the thoughts of a monk so highly? That does not make sense. Martin Luther is 1500 years removed from the apostles, but you say that his thoughts are authoritative, but the men who knew the apostles directly are not?

How do you justify this assertion?

How can you minimize God's authority by starting that He let His children on earth get the Bible wrong for 1200 years?

Do you honestly believe that the collective Church who lived while the NT was written, would choose to canonize books that were not inspired? What possible motive would they have to include the seven books in the canon if they thought they were not authoritative?

 

[Chandler50]

What refeence

Three men gets together and vote for the pastor to lead a newly planted church is sufficient. I'm done with my pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor and his pastor is ordained by his pastor... all the way back to broken apostic successions. The Protestants can read the bible by themselves. RCC wants to translate the bible for them so they can't learn the real truths. the RCC will lose profits.

Do you have a credible reference that claims apostolic succession was ever 'broken'. We have tons of evidence that there was never a break in apostolic succession.

Please also provide a biblical reference that a pastor is 'voted' by a minimum of three people. I know you cannot, because it is not in the Bible. You claim sola scripture, but you adhere to extra-biblical teachings?

Please stop making assertion and accusations without providing a reference, I have been providing references for all of my assertions, and I would appreciate if you do that same.

 

[Chandler50]

You have just been refuted by Ivan panin's recent discoveries or http://www.theomatics.com Serious skeptics like you ought to peek at https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Ivan+panin&t=ftas&ia=about Where even the atheists can't meet the million dollar challenge of proving it wrong.

I said provide credible resources. You know, peer-reviewed articles and books that have been thoroughly researched and debated. The website you wrote (www.theomatics.com) provides not outside references for their assertions, and quite frankly looks like website dedicated to aliens or some non-sense.

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68570236, member: 235244"]Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.[/QUOTE]

Nor does Christ make the circular argument "your doctrine is unholy because it is unholy" -

This is a "not so subtle point" that keeps getting glossed over. circular arguments don't work.

Again, I addressed Mark Chapter seven in my OP. The apostles made a very clear distinction to condemn the traditions of man, not of the Church.

Yes you appealed to the circular argument that the Jew's doctrine and tradition were unholy because they were unholy.

As was pointed out before - that sort of circular argument does not work.

What we have in Mark 7 is the very form of "sola scriptura testing" that you claim - does not exist in Christ's teaching.

Apparently this post on Mark 7
Yesterday at 5:12 PM #194
was a choke point for the argument against sola scriptura. It demonstrates the very method that the argument against sola scriptura claims - should not exist.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Chandler50]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68570236, member: 235244"]Nothing in Christ's statement to the magisterium in Mark 7 claims "this is not from scripture but from the church".

Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Sola scriptura testing? That would make sense if they were talking about scripture, but they were not. They were talking about the traditions of man.

You have yet to provide evidence for sola scriptura though. The only thing you have tried to do is refute Holy Tradition, not support sola scriptura. You can try and refute Holy Tradition all day long, and that will not support your claim of sola scriptura. There are countless 'authorities' people refer too. If you discount one, you still have hundreds to go.

 

[tulipbee]

I said provide credible resources. You know, peer-reviewed articles and books that have been thoroughly researched and debated. The website you wrote (www.theomatics.com) provides not outside references for their assertions, and quite frankly looks like website dedicated to aliens or some non-sense.

My calculator sums up 2+2=4 each time. I can perform the same calculations as many times as I want and still get the same results. That's creditable! What's to debate if its accurate on every count. See that's why you have been refuted. Your fight against the accuracy of a calculator is an epic fail.

 

[Chandler50]

My calculator sums up 2+2=4 each time. I can perform the same calculations as many times as I want and still get the same results. That's creditable! What's to debate if its accurate on every count. See that's why you have been refuted. Your fight against the accuracy of a calculator is an epic fail.

Lol, this is not a debate about the so called 'bible code', it is about sola scriptura. The very idea of the bible code is ridiculous and not an argument for sola scriptura.

 

[Chandler50]

My calculator sums up 2+2=4 each time. I can perform the same calculations as many times as I want and still get the same results. That's creditable! What's to debate if its accurate on every count. See that's why you have been refuted. Your fight against the accuracy of a calculator is an epic fail.

I also enjoy how when I asked you to provide credible resources for your claim, you replied with a generic 'I am right' statement with literally no links or references. That speaks for itself to the lack of resources you have utilized to put together your argument.

 

[tulipbee]

I also enjoy how when I asked you to provide credible resources for your claim, you replied with a generic 'I am right' statement with literally no links or references. That speaks for itself to the lack of resources you have utilized to put together your argument.

Enjoy that all you want cause I'm not laughing when we use the original source of the Hebrew and Greek letters themselves. The sources can't go no further than that. Here is the credible tip. Each letter represents a number and those sites and panin are referring to each of those numbers. The Hebrew/greek letters in the original Bible are as raw as good sources can get. You just got refuted agian but I'm not laughing when you use sources from fairy tales. It's saddening! I'm wheeping over your lies

 

[tulipbee]

Lol, this is not a debate about the so called 'bible code', it is about sola scriptura. The very idea of the bible code is ridiculous and not an argument for sola scriptura.

It's not that Bible code so I'm not talking about that. I'm taking about the bible alone, sola scriptura

 

[Standing Up]

So fact the Christ told Peter to establish His church on earth is just a side note? No one on earth, including Luther or anyone else can claim that Christ Himself establiahed the church and put them in charge other than Peter.

Every group, including RC, believes it follows Christ their head. The head is continuous, just like His body on earth.

Your job is to prove that hell prevailed, closing the doors to the kingdom that Peter opened. And along came RC to open them back up. If you can't do that, then your OP is utterly null and void.

 

[Chandler50]

Enjoy that all you want cause I'm not laughing when we use the original source of the Hebrew and Greek letters themselves. The sources can't go no further than that. Here is the credible tip. Each letter represents a number and those sites and panin are referring to each of those numbers. The Hebrew/greek letters in the original Bible are as raw as good sources can get. You just got refuted agian but I'm not laughing when you use sources from fairy tales. It's saddening! I'm wheeping over your lies

I think you mean weeping.

And please tell me why Christ or any of the apostles speak of this encriptic code in the scripture? Seems like it would be rather important if it was true. But it is not.

No where in the Bible or Holy Tradition would lead us to believe that God placed 'codes' in His scripture. In fact, this bogus assertion has been refuted many times over. And guess what, I actually have crediable references for you to support this claim. Follow the link below, and there are ten resources that absolutely disprove the 'so-called' bible code.

http://bib.irr.org/bible-codes-how-not-defend-bible

 

[Goatee]

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-do-we-know-it’s-the-true-church