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Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient

Do You Adhear to Sola Scriptura?


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BobRyan

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Where did Jesus say, exactly ""the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice"."?

So then ... Mark 7:6-13 comes to mind.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Acts 17:11 does not say "they searched the scriptures daily to see if they could interpret it according to their own bias" does it?
No, it implies that they searched the scriptures daily to see if saint Paul's interpretations were credible and correct. They were not searching the scripture just to read them again without any interpretation being checked. Saint Paul preached the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to them and that is what they were checking in the old covenant scriptures.

When it was dark the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away to Beroea, where they went to the Jewish synagogue as soon as they arrived. Here the Jews were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they welcomed the word very readily; every day they studied the scriptures to check whether it was true. Many of them became believers, and so did many Greek women of high standing and a number of the men. When the Jews of Thessalonica came to learn that the word of God was being preached by Paul in Beroea as well, they went there to make trouble and stir up the people. So the brothers arranged for Paul to go immediately as far as the coast, leaving Silas and Timothy behind.
(Acts 17:10-14 NJB)​
Acts 17:10-14 relates the preaching of Christ to the Jews in Beroea and it commends the Jews in Beroea for being open minded enough to listen to what saint Paul preached and it notes that they checked what he said by searching the old covenant scriptures every day that he was there among them preaching Christ. As the passage says saint Paul and the brothers with him preached "the word" which is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. What were the Beroean Jews searching for? For the passages that saint Paul quoted in his preaching and they were checking if what he said about them applying to Jesus was credible or not. Many of them decided it was credible but the Jews from Thessalonica came and stirred up trouble and saint Paul had to depart. We here very little of Beroea after he left. No mention of a Church being established there and saint Paul evidently didn't write any inspired letter or letters to them but he did to the church in Thessalonica. That is indicative that despite the Jewish opposition in Thessalonica saint Paul's message bore fruit. We don't know if it did bear much fruit in Beroea. But the message in the passage is not supportive of SS as defined in wikipedia and recommended to us by Standing UP.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Because they suffer from the same disease as the parent stock... their names sakes were given light on different subjects to 'protest' against what the church was teaching at the time.
The "reformers" themselves didn't agree with one another. A big group of people who read the same Sacred Scriptures but somehow reached different, at times contradictory, conclusions. Apparently it was so bad that it took until the 19th century for the Seventh Day Adventists (presumably) to get it right. What, at no time during the first 1,800 years of Christianity's existence did anybody get it right? Not even the apostles? Apparently even Luther wasn't sharp enough to get the job done.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Well you could try reading the bible and it would tell you that it is ok to have differences. they all agree on the essentials so no problem. If you don't think it is ok to have differences on non-essentials then perhaps you should stick to the unorthodox theology section of the forums since you don't believe the bible.
What doctrines do all Protestants agree upon? Some believe baptism is a necessity unto salvation while others believe it is not. Only one of those can be right. The other will be eternally wrong.

Some believe communion represents the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord and it nourishes our souls while others believe it is nothing more than a symbol and effectuates nothing. Only one of those can be right. The other will be eternally wrong.

The list goes on.

Whatever one Protestant congregation affirms another one out there expressly denies. I'm at a loss to imagine a single proposition firmly established by traditional Christianity that the newfangled Protestants can agree about.

This would be less troublesome were the standard something other than "Sacred Scripture is the authoritative rule of faith" as affirmed by many Protestants. This leads back to the central question of how groups who all affirm that the Bible alone is all one needs to be a Christian have so much disagreement. How can Sacred Scripture possibly be as definitive as Protestants believe it to be when Protestants can barely agree on what Sacred Scripture is, much less what it says?

So you put half a post up and expect people to be magical mind readers and know you planned on making another post later with the rest of your point of view. Perhaps give some indication of that next time.
Your objection to my contributions to this thread would be more logical (to me, if nobody else) were the title of this thread something other than "Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient". But since that is the title and since that premise has informed the points I've expressed in my posts to this thread, I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. With respect, I perhaps have overlooked how the thrust of this thread has changed trajectory. That is certainly possible. I do not want you to interpret this post as me talking down to you or not showing you respect. On the contrary I truly do not understand your objection in this.

What weird claim is this??? Only catholics are allowed to use latin??? What weird doctrine is that and where did it come from? Protestants have never been against using latin.
It isn't a "doctrine"; merely an observation that a German priest with a German flock who spoke German used Latin vocabulary to describe his doctrinal inventions. A more cynical person might suggest he (or someone) used Latin terms to give his innovations an appearance of credibility that would otherwise be lacking.
 
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TheDag

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I am not Catholic so no.
Ok just post your evidence that babies were in the household. Actual evidence not just assumptions. You made the claim there were babies there justifying a certain belief according to scripture so is it that big an ask to get you to back it up?
 
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Rick Otto

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What doctrines do all Protestants agree upon? Some believe baptism is a necessity unto salvation while others believe it is not. Only one of those can be right. The other will be eternally wrong.

Some believe communion represents the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord and it nourishes our souls while others believe it is nothing more than a symbol and effectuates nothing. Only one of those can be right. The other will be eternally wrong.

The list goes on.

Whatever one Protestant congregation affirms another one out there expressly denies. I'm at a loss to imagine a single proposition firmly established by traditional Christianity that the newfangled Protestants can agree about.

This would be less troublesome were the standard something other than "Sacred Scripture is the authoritative rule of faith" as affirmed by many Protestants. This leads back to the central question of how groups who all affirm that the Bible alone is all one needs to be a Christian have so much disagreement. How can Sacred Scripture possibly be as definitive as Protestants believe it to be when Protestants can barely agree on what Sacred Scripture is, much less what it says?

Your objection to my contributions to this thread would be more logical (to me, if nobody else) were the title of this thread something other than "Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient". But since that is the title and since that premise has informed the points I've expressed in my posts to this thread, I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. With respect, I perhaps have overlooked how the thrust of this thread has changed trajectory. That is certainly possible. I do not want you to interpret this post as me talking down to you or not showing you respect. On the contrary I truly do not understand your objection in this.

It isn't a "doctrine"; merely an observation that a German priest with a German flock who spoke German used Latin vocabulary to describe his doctrinal inventions. A more cynical person might suggest he (or someone) used Latin terms to give his innovations an appearance of credibility that would otherwise be lacking.
Lol!
Sola Latinus Catholica?
Omnia latina dictum sit, altum. (Everything in Latin sounds profound)

Sola Scripture does not demand uniformity of interpretation. That is more of a personal problem with freedom of religion, not a problem with the bible being the standard for Christian truth.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Sola Scripture does not demand uniformity of interpretation. That is more of a personal problem with freedom of religion, not a problem with the bible being the standard for Christian truth.
That raises an interesting point. Is something truly authoritative if it isn't uniform?

Over and above that, how can the Catholic Church possibly be "wrong" by Protestant standards? Protestants can absolutely disagree with each other, and one might well take the same position as the Church in the process, but neither of them are "wrong" from your standpoint (as I'm interpreting).

How then can the Church be said to be "wrong" about anything at all?

For that matter, why are Protestants even rebelling against it? Hey, freedom of religion, right? You don't have to agree with the Church on everything (or so I assume).

Heck, there may even be points about which you disagree even with your current congregation (whatever that might be). What's the difference between disagreeing with whatever congregation you're currently affiliated with and disagreeing with the Catholic Church?
 
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TheDag

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Whatever one Protestant congregation affirms another one out there expressly denies. I'm at a loss to imagine a single proposition firmly established by traditional Christianity that the newfangled Protestants can agree about.
Just shows your lack of understanding. I used to be involved in some non-denominational groups. One of the things that guest speakers were told is that they had to preach on things that were down the middle. Often the speakers would comment on how they thought that would leave hardly anything to speak on but were very surprised at how much they could speak on.
Just as an additional thought tell me what doctrine the thief on the cross believed!

What one believes about communion is not really important. It is what God says it is and if a person has the wrong understanding of that it is not a big deal.

This would be less troublesome were the standard something other than "Sacred Scripture is the authoritative rule of faith" as affirmed by many Protestants. This leads back to the central question of how groups who all affirm that the Bible alone is all one needs to be a Christian have so much disagreement. How can Sacred Scripture possibly be as definitive as Protestants believe it to be when Protestants can barely agree on what Sacred Scripture is, much less what it says?
Yes to be a christian. What is required to be a christian? Very little. The rest is not required to be a christian.

Your objection to my contributions to this thread would be more logical (to me, if nobody else) were the title of this thread something other than "Refuting Sola Scriptura - Why the Bible Alone is Not Sufficient". But since that is the title and since that premise has informed the points I've expressed in my posts to this thread, I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. With respect, I perhaps have overlooked how the thrust of this thread has changed trajectory. That is certainly possible. I do not want you to interpret this post as me talking down to you or not showing you respect. On the contrary I truly do not understand your objection in this.
My objection comes from the fact that when someone pointed out what they saw as flaws in your post your defence was that it was only part of it. When it is only half the story you should not be surprised when people object.

It isn't a "doctrine"; merely an observation that a German priest with a German flock who spoke German used Latin vocabulary to describe his doctrinal inventions. A more cynical person might suggest he (or someone) used Latin terms to give his innovations an appearance of credibility that would otherwise be lacking.
You seemed to be saying that protestants were against using latin as if someone using latin proves anything.

Over and above that, how can the Catholic Church possibly be "wrong" by Protestant standards? Protestants can absolutely disagree with each other, and one might well take the same position as the Church in the process, but neither of them are "wrong" from your standpoint (as I'm interpreting).
nope that is just you reading more into what was said than is there. Of course one it can be one is wrong and one is right. Don't see why you would exclude that as a possibility from what was said.

Heck, there may even be points about which you disagree even with your current congregation (whatever that might be). What's the difference between disagreeing with whatever congregation you're currently affiliated with and disagreeing with the Catholic Church?
To me there is no difference but then again I don't condemn the RCC as unchristian. However there is more of a demand for uniformity in the RCC from my observations. That may not be the case across all RCC's.
 
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Rick Otto

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That raises an interesting point. Is something truly authoritative if it isn't uniform?

Over and above that, how can the Catholic Church possibly be "wrong" by Protestant standards? Protestants can absolutely disagree with each other, and one might well take the same position as the Church in the process, but neither of them are "wrong" from your standpoint (as I'm interpreting).

How then can the Church be said to be "wrong" about anything at all?

For that matter, why are Protestants even rebelling against it? Hey, freedom of religion, right? You don't have to agree with the Church on everything (or so I assume).

Heck, there may even be points about which you disagree even with your current congregation (whatever that might be). What's the difference between disagreeing with whatever congregation you're currently affiliated with and disagreeing with the Catholic Church?
Authority perceived is authority achieved. Same with uniformity. As far as "truly" goes, don't let perfect become the enemy of good.
Freedom of opinion does not make every opinion wrong or every opinion right, it just means opposition can be loyal. So the church (or anyone) can be said to be wrong by anyone. Freedom of speech doesn't require truth be expressed.
What seems to be the problem is a discomfort with responsibility and freedom resting upon the individual rather than the institution.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Authority perceived is authority achieved. Same with uniformity. As far as "truly" goes, don't let perfect become the enemy of good.
Interesting. Based on the few posts I've yours I'm seeing on this page, your logic seems to be "don't sweat the small stuff". So what then was the point of rebelling against the Catholic Church if you're not striving for perfect?

What seems to be the problem is a discomfort with responsibility and freedom resting upon the individual rather than the institution.
Well, no offense is intended here but considering the individual's questionable abilities and absolutely lousy track record, I certainly understand the reluctance.

Just shows your lack of understanding.
I don't know you. You don't know me. I interpret that statement as rude and aggressive. That may not be what you intended but that's how I'm interpreting it.

My promise to you is this: If you shoot your mouth off to me again, I'll report your post to a mod. I usually try to be polite and courteous. Certainly that is how I've addressed you. I expect the same in return. It isn't too much to ask, sir.

Typically I would've reported this post already but there is a possibility that you truly meant no harm, in which case I apologize.

Just as an additional thought tell me what doctrine the thief on the cross believed!
Doctrine concerning what, exactly?

What one believes about communion is not really important. It is what God says it is and if a person has the wrong understanding of that it is not a big deal.
It was apparently important enough for Our Lord to talk about, for the Holy Spirit to inspire St. John to include in his gospel in chapter 6 and for the Early Church to talk about at great length.

My objection comes from the fact that when someone pointed out what they saw as flaws in your post your defence was that it was only part of it. When it is only half the story you should not be surprised when people object.
And as I explained, I believe your concern is unwarranted. My posts have been topical and followed the basic trajectory of this thread without ever really going off topic.

You seemed to be saying that protestants were against using latin as if someone using latin proves anything.
*sigh* This is another example of the usual abject lack of Protestant unity. It isn't hard to find Protestants objecting to a perceived lack of vernacular language inherent to the Catholic Church.

And yet I point out one instance of probably the most famous Protestant in history co-opting Latin to give his man-made invention more scholarly cachet and the response is that Protestants don't oppose Latin.

Honestly, the way it looks (and this may not be official policy among all Protestants at all times in all places in all of history) is Protestants reserve the right to criticize the Church of the time for a perceived lack of vernacular language but feel totally within their rights to abandon vernacular language whenever it suits them. If you believe that to be a mischaracterization, I would be interested to hear how you view the matter.

nope that is just you reading more into what was said than is there. Of course one it can be one is wrong and one is right. Don't see why you would exclude that as a possibility from what was said.
Since I'm reacting to another member's opinions, would it be possible for you to allow him to speak for himself please?
 
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Standing Up

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Then how is it that all these denominations which claim to adhere to Sola Scriptura can't even agree with each other on how to make Kool-Aid?
Lots of reasons. You could think of a few.

So, we're in agreement on SS?
 
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Standing Up

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No, we cannot agree that the USA constitution is authority in the USA but we can point to the supreme court (and the police forces that enforce the decisions of the supreme court) as authority in the USA. The USA constitution is the law which the supreme court interprets. It is the decisions of the supreme court that are enforced as binding authority in the USA. A recent example ought to suffice. The supreme court decided that same sex marriage is a protected 'right' under the USA constitution and therefore that no state in the union may make laws denying that freedom (right) to same sex couples. We need not get bogged down by the technicalities of this particular ruling it is sufficient for my purposes to note the decision and its immediate effect on USA law and law enforcement. It was not the constitution that stopped states from exercising their authority it was the supreme court's decision (interpretation) of the USA constitution that did it.

Unbelievable. You agree with SS and then deny your agreement with the same straw.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Then how is it that all these denominations which claim to adhere to Sola Scriptura can't even agree with each other on how to make Kool-Aid?
Lots of reasons. You could think of a few.
Well, unfortunately "Sola Scriptura is an egregious error" is the first thing which comes to mind.
 
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Albion

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Well, unfortunately "Sola Scriptura is an egregious error" is the first thing which comes to mind.
We believe you. Our hope is that you'll move beyond that position to one that is based upon something more substantial.

Why, for instance, would the word of God (which your church considers the Bible to be, no less than our churches do) not be complete and adequate? Why would anyone think that human opinion, custom, and legend, is actually a second source of revelation from God, i.e. a necessary supplement to his revelation already given in Scripture?
 
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BobRyan

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Then how is it that all these denominations which claim to adhere to Sola Scriptura can't even agree with each other on how to make Kool-Aid?

you are skimming over too many details --

To the contrary of your speculative assertion - we agree that the RCC doctrinal errors that contradict scripture include these errors:

  1. prayers to the dead
  2. Purgatory
  3. The system of Indulgences
  4. The "Doctrine of Discovery"
  5. The infallabiliy of Papal and RCC church council statements on doctrine, and law governing Christians.
  6. Claims to "confect the body soul and divinity of Christ"
  7. Rejection of Sola Scriptura testing of all tradition and doctrine
  8. "powers" of the priests
  9. Adding in apocryphal books as if they are scripture
...

And we agree that no Bible doctrine supports burning Protestants (or Catholics) alive at the stake.

We agree that there is no Bible support for Papal armies going to war against each other.

No Bible support for Christians to torture themselves.

No Bible support for the assumption of Mary, Mary being sinless, Mary being called "Mother of God" by even one Apostle or by all NT Christian before she died.

We agree that salvation is "by grace through faith" and even the RCC seems to be coming around on that one in recent times.
 
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BobRyan

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But the Bible alone folks argue all the time that if it don't say something it ain't no good, than move the goal post when pointed out that their pet idea appears no where in Scripture. The Bible alone is no more that a Protestant tradition but not a Traditional historic item from the Church, in fact you will not find the idea of Bible alone until well after the Reformation.

How can I argue against it? Easily because even you tried to say it was in Scripture and the doctrine of Bible alone does not come down to use through Apostolic Tradition. As St. Paul says:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

Notice we are not instructed to go by just the Bible alone

Sola scriptura as doctrine is the teaching that all tradition, all doctrine is to be tested against scripture.

We see that in Isaiah 8:19
We see it in Mark 7:6-13
We see it in Acts 17:11
We see it in Gal 1:6-9

Praise God!
 
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Albion

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Then how is it that all these denominations which claim to adhere to Sola Scriptura can't even agree with each other on how to make Kool-Aid?

The answer is simpler than the one you gave to this question, Bob. If "all these denominations" follow Sola Scriptura and come up with different answers, that's not anything that doesn't also happen with all those denominations that disavow Sola Scriptura and follow "Tradition" or something else instead! The claim/question is, therefore, bogus to begin with.

The point of Sola Scriptura is to know what the authority is. Using it doesn't guarantee that someone can't misunderstand it (again, just as with the "Holy Tradition" churches).
 
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BobRyan

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Suppose, as is common, two Protestants who agree equally about Sola Scriptura read the same passage of Sacred Scripture and reach two completely opposing conclusions. At least one of them is wrong. They might both be wrong but they can't both be right. How would you identify which one is authoritative and correct?

In Acts 17:11 you have non-Christians (possibly a few Jews who did not accept Christ as the Messiah) listening to Paul and then - "making that choice" -- two groups with two different views - yet coming to one agreement - based on scripture "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things (spoken to them by the Apostle Paul) were SO"

You can also see "people with Bibles holding to every different beliefs at the start" - coming together in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-5, Acts 18:1-8 - even though they do not ALL cross over to the right side - many do.
 
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BobRyan

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The answer is simpler than the one you gave to this question, Bob. If "all these denominations" follow Sola Scriptura and come up with different answers, that's not anything that doesn't also happen with all those denominations that disavow Sola Scriptura and follow "Tradition" or something else instead! The claim/question is, therefore, bogus to begin with.

The point of Sola Scriptura is to know what the authority is. Using it doesn't guarantee that someone can't misunderstand it (again, just as with the "Holy Tradition" churches).

I think their initial question was of the form "fine then - sola scriptura - so why doesn't that solve it - why is it mass confusion with sola scriptura")

1. My point is that instead of just mass confusion we do in fact find strong agreement on some points.

2. Your point that differences can still exist is also true.

3. There is also another point that should not be ignored --

Within a single denomination like the RCC with a single doctrinal authority - there is agreement to a larger degree than there would be between two different denominations. But that would almost always be true no matter if the RCC were one of the denominations being compared or not.

They are "glossing over that detail" as well. They are trying to position the discussion so that the RCC is only responsible for agreement "inside the RCC" while all other denominations must be responsible for agreement across all non-RCC denominations. That is a flawed premise and is rejected.
 
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Albion

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3. There is also another point that should not be ignored --

Within a single denomination like the RCC with a single doctrinal authority - there is agreement to a larger degree than there would be between two different denominations. But that would almost always be true no matter if the RCC were one of the denominations being compared or not...They are "glossing over that detail" as well..
Yes. Absolutely. You can always "prove" the other side "wrong" if you compare a single denomination against a batch of others. And that's fundamentally dishonest.

I did address this technique, in passing, by pointing that no two of the "Holy Tradition" denominations has the same view on the Tradition or the doctrines as any of the others, but I didn't point out the basis deception in the "us vs. all of them" kind of comparison, that's right.
 
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