Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[seekingsolace]

So free will is the base of this statement I had made.
At least from me,

For instance if your correct then God willed evil to exist and satan to be evil as well.
Which makes God the tyrant and the devil the victim.
The theory is a lot more broad and very hard to chew for me especially with rest of the word.

Satan and his workings are in Gods permissive will, God is not responsible for the evil that Satan commits because God did not cause or effect it to happen. Now evil is contrary to Gods moral will, but Gods decretive will is final; all things align with Gods divine purpose.

So in Gods permissive will, if he lets you be tempted, is this not for your own good? and to His own divine purpose in you. As a father disciplines a child, and directs his paths, so will God, who are we to question his methodology, just as Job learnt.

 

[lori milne]

Satan and his workings are in Gods permissive will, God is not responsible for the evil that Satan commits because God did not cause or effect it to happen. Now evil is contrary to Gods moral will, but Gods decretive will is final; all things align with Gods divine purpose. So in Gods permissive will, if he lets you be tempted, is this not for your own good? and to His own divine purpose in you. As a father disciplines a child, and directs his paths, so will God, who are we to question his methodology, just as Job learnt.

I don't understand what you mean. Is it the same as believing God allowed us to have free will,
So that sinning or not is permitted "

Like in job God gave the devil permission in a sense because he gave him free will to begin with so then he gave him permission " to tempt and destroy in jobs case.
?

 

[lori milne]

To nobodysfool

1 Timothy 3:5 also I forgot to add

 

[seekingsolace]

In the case of Job you could say it's the principle of Gods refining by fire. Satan operated in Gods permissive will, but Gods decretive will was also in place “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So God permitted Satan to test Job, but decreed that he was not to lay a hand on his person.
"And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.” Once again, God permitted the testing, but decreed that his life be spared.

Job’s Repentance and Restoration
"Then Job answered the Lord and said:

“I know that You can do everything,
And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
Listen, please, and let me speak;
You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’
“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

Job repented that he had questioned the Lord, he spoke of that which he did not understand and in so doing so loathed himself for doing so.

"Indeed the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. Each one gave him a piece of silver and each a ring of gold.

"Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; for he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters. And he called the name of the first Jemimah, the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch. In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers."

After Jobs hardships and repentance God rewarded him richly. Overall you can see the picture that God is sovereign (supreme ruler) and that we cannot understand Gods ways nor His divine purpose.

 

[lori milne]

First off
Everything that was said was very clear and in reference to what you said which is just "your view"
Sorry I'm not a Calvinist and not an OSAS and not a hyper grace
As you should have been able to tell By now ??
I believe in free will.
Secondly

If the only way you can be correct when we speak is by insulting me then GET OFF MY THREAD!

 

[Zanting]

NBF...Ok...sorry this took so long...so you said

Sure. I believe the Fall has so affected man's will that unless God intervenes, man will not choose Christ, or hear the gospel with understanding, because their desires are counter to Christ and the Gospel. They won't choose Christ because to them it is not attractive, they don't believe, and don't want to believe. It's not so much that they cannot choose, it has more to do with them not wanting to choose.

I'm reminded of the old saying, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." There is a tendency among Churches in America (especially) to think that people can be won to Christ with slick speeches, compelling presentations, eloquent preaching, creative altar calls, and the like. That is completely the wrong way.

When I finished reading this….I was reminded of the movie “The Cross and The Switchblade” which I saw at a young and impressionable age when it was circulating among young peoples groups in our area, back in the early 70’s. The actor who played the character of David Wilkerson came across as very humble and pretty awkward, young, fresh and clean Christian, but very persistent in letting street kids know that Jesus loved them. David Wilkerson had written his book in the early sixties, and then in the late sixties on the other coast Jesus movement began.

Anyway, more to the point

…..Although I believe they serve a purpose, and some will come to know God through them, I agree. The more sort of “Hollywood” churches, in particular, IMO anyway, present a very superficial overall view that can charge emotions, but not penetrate the heart and soul of a being. It’s all very shallow to me….which in a way leads right into what you say next…

No man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Jesus' own words. Instead of all the aforementioned methods, what should be happening is intercessory prayer for the Father to draw more people to Christ, and understanding that unless they have been drawn by the Father, they won't believe, no matter what we do. Salvation is 100% God, He is the one who grants hearing with understanding of the Gospel, which brings faith which will enable them to believe. Salvation is a work of the entire Godhead. And unless HE is involved, nothing we can say or do will cause people to believe.

…..If you are quoting John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I would argue that man must be drawn to Jesus to come to the Father. We seek salvation through Jesus, but God is the giver of life. Jesus and His Holy Spirit are the conduit to salvation from the Father. Perhaps I’m wrong, but in essence you are saying that the only reason we would seek Jesus is if we are compelled or drawn to do so, by the Father Himself…..

I do not believe that man can choose Christ, anytime he wants, on his own terms. Unless God has opened their eyes and ears, and changed their heart, and imparted faith in their hearts by the hearing of the Word (Gospel), they will not choose Christ. A work of God needs to happen in their heart for them to choose Christ.

….This is what really perked me up last night…I too truly believe that God has to open mans eyes and ears, and that there is nothing you can do to make that happen for someone else. Something has to happen that does that. It actually sent tingles down my spine, because it was like that for me, and it happened in a split second. Quite suddenly and without the shadow of a doubt I knew Jesus was real, I knew God was real, and the Holy Spirit came over me and exposed the Bible to me from beginning to the end. It really was like a video playing in my mind. I don’t know why that happened, it was in the middle of the day while I was alone at home surfing the net. But, that brief moment changed not only my view of everything, but my life as well. I got down on my knees and prayed for forgiveness right then and there. And then for a few more days, shedding many tears, for myself and how blind I had been, but also because I had been made aware in that moment that so many souls would never know his truth. It was overwhelming really. They will remain deaf and blind, unless they are touched by God in some way. To be honest with you, I didn’t know how to talk to anyone anymore without trying to tell them what had happened and getting one of those “you have three heads” looks. ..

Why? because as sinners, they are enemies of God, they do not love Him, they have no desire to serve or obey Him, and in actual fact, they hate Him. As I said earlier, I don't believe it's possible to love what you hate, or hate what you love. I don't believe it's possible for a man to change his mind about things so fundamental without outside help.

…I agree with this as well, but I also believe that God is always there like a whisper, gently urging you in His direction waiting for mankind to hear and obey. And this is where I see free will comes in. It comes down to hear and draw near, or ignore, or distract, or drown out, or any other number of methods to avoid His urging….

Does man have the ability to choose? Of course! But man will not willingly choose what they hate (God), or love what they hate (God), or hate what they love (Sin), or not choose what they love (Sin). If somehow they are manipulated into doing so, they will revert, because no man can convert himself to Christ. Unless Christ converts him, he will remain unconverted. And no man is converted to Christ by his own ability or effort, he is converted by the influence, power, and action of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I would agree that many do hate the whisper calling them. I think for those who truly are full of hate, Gods whisper is actually painful for them, and they will indulge in fleshly desires to drive His sound out of them. I also believe that God will at some point stop urging them and hardens their heart against Him.

 

[lori milne]

How is it a contradiction? Can't you address what I said?

Following along with whats been said is hard For you I can truly see that
Now

 

[Zanting]

Zanting, I welcome your thoughts! I know I don't have all the answers, but I try to stick to things that I think I know a little about...

I answered this question with the idea that I was sitting down, talking one-on-one with you, and reasoning out the "whys" of why I believe as I do. I didn't see the need to throw a bunch of Scriptures at you, because of the way you asked the question.

I was out of town for a couple of days, which helped me gain some much-needed perspective, with no internet access. In that time a sticky situation that I was getting sucked into got resolved, in a way that could only have been God's doing. So, I am operating from a place of gratefulness, and enjoying the blessing of being able to serve an old friend who needed a favor. It was a strange, but productive weekend.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

Yes, it is refreshing to feel like your are actually having a conversation with someone. It doesn't feel very Christian like when CHAT YELLING is going on, and unfortunately I too get baited into heated discussion, but I am much better at just leaving it be.

I have posted my response...

 

[Butch5]

My theology is a personal search for truth
Not false ideas that aren't even in the. Bible!!

I base all my believes only on jesus direct teachings and Matt mark luke John Peter
Paul i like to use but I notice some OSAS believers twisting or misinterpreting a lot of it!
Which compared to jesus teaching should be clear!! Amen!!

Why are all of jesus teachings being overlooked!
Is it because people don't want to be judged condemned they want there cake and to eat it to !
Jesus speaks clearly about repenting why is it something not being practiced??

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. (2Ti 4:3-4 NKJ)

 

[lori milne]

This thread is in jesus name
Let's all remember that and speak lovingly in the joy of the lord To one another and not speak evil or undeservingly harsh to each other!

Amen

 

[lori milne]

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. (2Ti 4:3-4 NKJ)

I agree

 

[Brother Chris]

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. (2Ti 4:3-4 NKJ)

Is Jesus Christ God???

 

[Butch5]

Is Jesus Christ God???

What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

 

[Butch5]

I agree

Jesus chastised the Scribes and Pharisees for putting their traditions above God's word, things don't change, history just repeats itself.

3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother1'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death2.'
5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
6 `then he need not honor his father or mother1.' Thus you have made the commandment2 of God of no effect by your tradition.
7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And1 honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. (Mat 15:3-8 NKJ)

 

[nobdysfool]

What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

Everything! Jesus IS God the Son, co-equal with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was not God, we would have no Savior.

 

[Butch5]

Everything! Jesus IS God the Son, co-equal with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was not God, we would have no Savior.

The OP said OSAS believers were twisting the Scriptures. What does Jesus being God have to do with whether or not OSAS believers are twisting Scripture?

How is Jesus equal with God?

You said,

If Jesus was not God, we would have no Savior.

Why is that?

 

[lori milne]

Satan and his workings are in Gods permissive will, God is not responsible for the evil that Satan commits because God did not cause or effect it to happen. Now evil is contrary to Gods moral will, but Gods decretive will is final; all things align with Gods divine purpose. So in Gods permissive will, if he lets you be tempted, is this not for your own good? and to His own divine purpose in you. As a father disciplines a child, and directs his paths, so will God, who are we to question his methodology, just as Job learnt.

I think I understand what you mean then
But just to be clear?
Do you feel God created the devil to be evil or to fulfill the fall of man and not have free will to decide to be good?

 

[nobdysfool]

NBF...Ok...sorry this took so long...so you said

Sure. I believe the Fall has so affected man's will that unless God intervenes, man will not choose Christ, or hear the gospel with understanding, because their desires are counter to Christ and the Gospel. They won't choose Christ because to them it is not attractive, they don't believe, and don't want to believe. It's not so much that they cannot choose, it has more to do with them not wanting to choose.

I'm reminded of the old saying, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." There is a tendency among Churches in America (especially) to think that people can be won to Christ with slick speeches, compelling presentations, eloquent preaching, creative altar calls, and the like. That is completely the wrong way.

When I finished reading this….I was reminded of the movie “The Cross and The Switchblade” which I saw at a young and impressionable age when it was circulating among young peoples groups in our area, back in the early 70’s. The actor who played the character of David Wilkerson came across as very humble and pretty awkward, young, fresh and clean Christian, but very persistent in letting street kids know that Jesus loved them. David Wilkerson had written his book in the early sixties, and then in the late sixties on the other coast Jesus movement began.

Anyway, more to the point

…..Although I believe they serve a purpose, and some will come to know God through them, I agree. The more sort of “Hollywood” churches, in particular, IMO anyway, present a very superficial overall view that can charge emotions, but not penetrate the heart and soul of a being. It’s all very shallow to me….which in a way leads right into what you say next…

No man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Jesus' own words. Instead of all the aforementioned methods, what should be happening is intercessory prayer for the Father to draw more people to Christ, and understanding that unless they have been drawn by the Father, they won't believe, no matter what we do. Salvation is 100% God, He is the one who grants hearing with understanding of the Gospel, which brings faith which will enable them to believe. Salvation is a work of the entire Godhead. And unless HE is involved, nothing we can say or do will cause people to believe.

…..If you are quoting John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I would argue that man must be drawn to Jesus to come to the Father. We seek salvation through Jesus, but God is the giver of life. Jesus and His Holy Spirit are the conduit to salvation from the Father. Perhaps I’m wrong, but in essence you are saying that the only reason we would seek Jesus is if we are compelled or drawn to do so, by the Father Himself…..

I do not believe that man can choose Christ, anytime he wants, on his own terms. Unless God has opened their eyes and ears, and changed their heart, and imparted faith in their hearts by the hearing of the Word (Gospel), they will not choose Christ. A work of God needs to happen in their heart for them to choose Christ.

….This is what really perked me up last night…I too truly believe that God has to open mans eyes and ears, and that there is nothing you can do to make that happen for someone else. Something has to happen that does that. It actually sent tingles down my spine, because it was like that for me, and it happened in a split second. Quite suddenly and without the shadow of a doubt I knew Jesus was real, I knew God was real, and the Holy Spirit came over me and exposed the Bible to me from beginning to the end. It really was like a video playing in my mind. I don’t know why that happened, it was in the middle of the day while I was alone at home surfing the net. But, that brief moment changed not only my view of everything, but my life as well. I got down on my knees and prayed for forgiveness right then and there. And then for a few more days, shedding many tears, for myself and how blind I had been, but also because I had been made aware in that moment that so many souls would never know his truth. It was overwhelming really. They will remain deaf and blind, unless they are touched by God in some way. To be honest with you, I didn’t know how to talk to anyone anymore without trying to tell them what had happened and getting one of those “you have three heads” looks. ..

Why? because as sinners, they are enemies of God, they do not love Him, they have no desire to serve or obey Him, and in actual fact, they hate Him. As I said earlier, I don't believe it's possible to love what you hate, or hate what you love. I don't believe it's possible for a man to change his mind about things so fundamental without outside help.

…I agree with this as well, but I also believe that God is always there like a whisper, gently urging you in His direction waiting for mankind to hear and obey. And this is where I see free will comes in. It comes down to hear and draw near, or ignore, or distract, or drown out, or any other number of methods to avoid His urging….

Does man have the ability to choose? Of course! But man will not willingly choose what they hate (God), or love what they hate (God), or hate what they love (Sin), or not choose what they love (Sin). If somehow they are manipulated into doing so, they will revert, because no man can convert himself to Christ. Unless Christ converts him, he will remain unconverted. And no man is converted to Christ by his own ability or effort, he is converted by the influence, power, and action of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I would agree that many do hate the whisper calling them. I think for those who truly are full of hate, Gods whisper is actually painful for them, and they will indulge in fleshly desires to drive His sound out of them. I also believe that God will at some point stop urging them and hardens their heart against Him.

Wow! Thanks so much for sharing your testimony! A very well-said and compelling reply!

My views have developed over the years, a lot of reading, praying, thinking, and discussing with my younger brother, who is a writer and could, if he chose to, pastor a church, but he sees his calling in writing and speaking as the opportunity arises. He lives in Indonesia (we're not from there), and has spent a lot of time ministering to people of Oriental origin. Our discussions sometimes would be hard for others to follow, as we have a bit of a shorthand way of talking (as many siblings do), and we also have a very wacky sense of humor between us. My younger brother is one of only 2 people in the world who can make me laugh so hard and so long that my face and neck hurt.

As for my testimony, God nabbed me not too long after I graduated from High School. Being a musician, I attended concerts whenever I could, and at one with Glass Harp (Phil Keaggy's band), I noticed something "different" about them. I had seen them before, but something was different. Backstage after the show, my friends and I asked him how he learned to play so well on his guitar, and he smiled and looked at us and said one word: "Jesus". That name ehoed on my head like an echo chamber. A few months later, my friends and I went to see the band at their Wednesday night house gig in Kent, OH. After the show, I heard Phil say he needed a ride home, and I offered to give him the ride, which he accepted, on one condition: We had to come with him to a prayer meeting on the Kent State campus on our way.

We agreed, and when I walked into Newman Chapel, I was seeing a life-sized crucifix hanging over the altar in the Sanctuary (it was a Catholic chapel). Suddenly, what I was seeing wasn't a crucifix, I was seeing a living, moving scene in front of me that I later realized was something I never would have expected. I believe that God allowed me to see the actual Crucifixion, in a vision. I cannot even describe how it actually was, it was very bloody, and very brutal. I saw 3 crosses, and the man in the middle (Jesus), and I had this overwhelming sense of knowing that He died right there, at that time, for me. It was my sins that put Him there, it was my sins that he had taken upon Himself.

When the vision cleared, i was on my knees in the Chapel, tears running down my face, and I had this amazing sense of feeling completely clean for the first time in my life. The weight was gone! In all of this, not one word was spoken to me by anyone, no one led me in "the sinner's prayer". Like you, God moved on me, opened my eyes, opened my heart, and I received Him. I walked out of that chapel a changed man.

I wasn't looking for Christ, I wasn't feeling all that convicted of sin (I was raised in an Evangelical church, so I knew a lot of the stories and teachings of the bible, but they didn't mean anything to me). But I had an encounter with Christ that day, and my own experience has led me to a more Calvinist way of looking at things.

I'm not 100% Calvinist, there are some areas of difference I have with them from my own study of the Word. But I think they are right on at least 4 of the 5 points. For one thing, I think they're wrong about cessationism. God still does miracles today, and I have seen some, and experienced some..


As to free will, that can be a very divisive topic, but I have given you my view. I object to the idea that man's will in any way limits God, or that He limits Himself and defers to man's will. In my understanding, God is Sovereign, and man willingly does what God has ordained that he do, in the unveiling and production of His Purpose. Does God ordain what color socks I wear? No, I don't think He has to, but He certainly knew from before the foundation of the world what color socks I would wear today! To my knowledge, I don't believe that the color of my socks has any far-reaching or life-changing aspect, certainly not a key component of the Purpose and Plan of God for His Creation.

I've rambled a bit here, but an actual conversation is refreshing. I think we may have gotten off on the wrong foot briefly a month or so ago, and I'm glad to set that right!

 

[seekingsolace]

God didn't choose for the devil to be evil, he did that of his own accord. Man had freewill within the Garden of Eden to obey God or not, but he became a son of disobedience and brought death into the world.

Ezekiel 28:14-16
“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
“By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones. "

 

[Brother Chris]

What does that have to do with the subject at hand?

Because you are an active participant in the Unorthodox Theology section advocating that Jesus Chris is not God. If you don't believe that, you should not be posting in the Orthodox section. Before we report you, answer the question:

Is Jesus Christ God, yes or no?