Refuting OSAS in jesus name

[lori milne]

So will we be in heaven based on our goodness, or His?

Our goodness In the likeness
of him and through him

 

[EmSw]

So will we be in heaven based on our goodness, or His?

Both!

John 5 -
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

We are given time here to understand and then choose and then prepare.

I really do not like the way you worded this. I think it would be more accurately worded as

"We are given time here to grow, learn and to understand. To grow in the spiritual. To make both right and wrong choices, and under the guidance and conviction of the Holy Spirit to be able to discern the difference. Through this, we are in the continual process of becoming sanctified on this earth, which brings our will and our actions closer to those of Jesus now and when He was on earth."

I don't believe that we 'prepare' for heaven. We are becoming more like Christ. That is the goal and going to heaven is one of the promises that have been given to us by Christ. We are not preparing for heaven. We are becoming like Christ and therefore like the Father.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Both!

John 5 -
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

No. It is only because of Christ's goodness and perfection.
http://www.christianforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[lori milne]

I really do not like the way you worded this. I think it would be more accurately worded as "We are given time here to grow, learn and to understand. To grow in the spiritual. To make both right and wrong choices, and under the guidance and conviction of the Holy Spirit to be able to discern the difference. Through this, we are in the continual process of becoming sanctified on this earth, which brings our will and our actions closer to those of Jesus now and when He was on earth." I don't believe that we 'prepare' for heaven. We are becoming more like Christ. That is the goal and going to heaven is one of the promises that have been given to us by Christ. We are not preparing for heaven. We are becoming like Christ and therefore like the Father.

I use the simplest way to put it not for any one but my self lol
I did use my own assumption on that part and my guess isn't as good as Gods word that's for sure

 

[lori milne]

Both! John 5 - 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Amen

 

[Hammster]

Our goodness In the likeness
of him and through him

So He's obliged to bring you to heaven if you're good enough?

 

[Hammster]

Both!

John 5 -
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Fortunately, Paul explains that any good we do is Christ working is us.

 

[lori milne]

So He's obliged to bring you to heaven if you're good enough?

If your assuming Gods obligated in some way to lot send us to hell if we're good.

I don't understand the question if that's what you mean.
He made us in his image
And thats I guess his obligation" to fulfill ?

 

[Hammster]

If your assuming Gods obligated in some way to lot send us to hell if we're good.

I don't understand the question if that's what you mean.
He made us in his image
And thats I guess his obligation" to fulfill ?

You have said that we will be in heaven because we are good, not because God is good. That would make him obligated to bring you to heaven based on your goodness.

But how do you know if you are good enough?

 

[lori milne]

If your assuming Gods obligated in some way to lot send us to hell if we're good. I don't understand the question if that's what you mean. He made us in his image And thats I guess his obligation" to fulfill ?

Corrected

 

[lori milne]

So He's obliged to bring you to heaven if you're good enough?

If your good enough is saying we have some flaws so no spot free! God can not look apon sin! Which is why jesus died for our sins and gives us the ability to be spot free.

 

[Hammster]

If your good enough is saying we have some flaws so no spot free! God can not look apon sin! Which is why jesus died for our sins and gives us the ability to be spot free.

How do you become spot free?

 

[St_Worm2]

Actually, God started the theology. The Apostles wrote about it. Calvin helped systematize it.

All very true ..

I think the point needs to be made again however that Eternal Security can only be true for those who actually become Christians. What seems to have been popularized in more recent times (and has become known as OSAS) is the idea that you can simply say some formula of words (like an incantation), then God sprinkles you with the pixie dust and poof, you're a Christian forever .. no matter how miserable a sinner you continue to be and, especially, how sinful a lifestyle you continue to lead.

Reformed theology doesn't teach that, period (though I realize there are other faiths/churches today that do). If you have not been changed (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17), if you never abandon the sinful lifestyle you were leading prior to your claim of becoming a Christian (1 John 3:6), and if you never choose to live a life which is pleasing to God (characterized by things such as obedience to Christ and by the performing good works which you were created in Him for .. Ephesians 2:10; James 2:24), this is solid evidence that your claim of becoming a Christian is a sham in which you have either attempted to deceive others into believing you are a Christian, or you are deceiving yourself (Matthew 7:22-23).

For those we know and believed were Christians, but then get up and leave us for the world or for another non-Christian faith, that is also solid evidence that they were never one of us, never true Christians .. 1 John 2:19

But once you truly become a Christian, once the Lord has changed your heart and you are the possessor of 'saving' faith, the Lord is clear that with His ever-present help, that is what you will remain (Philippians 1:6; John 10:27-28; Romans 8:29-30). IOW, you are saved "forever" (to the "uttermost") from the moment God justifies you (Hebrews 7:25).

Eternal life begins at the point of 'spiritual' conception. It is a present reality, not a distant possibility. (John 5:24)

Yours and His,
David

"Those he predestined, he also called; and those
he called, he also justified; and those he
justified, he also glorified"
Romans 8:30​

 

[Albion]

Reformed theology doesn't teach that, period (though I realize there are other faiths/churches today that do). If you have not been changed (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17), if you never abandon the sinful lifestyle you were leading prior to your claim of becoming a Christian (1 John 3:6), and if you never choose to live a life which is pleasing to God (characterized by things such as obedience to Christ and by the performing good works which you were created in Him for .. Ephesians 2:10; James 2:24), this is solid evidence that your claim of becoming a Christian is a sham in which you have either attempted to deceive others into believing you are a Christian, or you are deceiving yourself (Matthew 7:22-23).

For those we know and believed were Christians, but then get up and leave us for the world or for another non-Christian faith, that is also solid evidence that they were never one of us, never true Christians .. 1 John 2:19

But once you truly become a Christian, once the Lord has changed your heart and you are the possessor of 'saving' faith, the Lord is clear that with His ever-present help, that is what you will remain (Philippians 1:6; John 10:27-28; Romans 8:29-30). IOW, you are saved "forever" (to the "uttermost") from the moment God justifies you. Eternal life begins at the point of 'spiritual' conception. It is a present reality, not simply a distant possibility. (John 5:24; Hebrews 7:25)

Yours and His,
David[/SIZE][/FONT]

This is a very well crafted explanation of a difficult subject, David. I hope it helps a lot of people here who have had a hard time sorting it all out.

 

[St_Worm2]

Yes.

So, to say that one is a Calvanist or not a Calvinist is more like a theological shortcut to put a base of beliefs together in the same basket. Aren't there like 5 basic beliefs if you believe all 5 then you are like a 5 point Calvanist or something?

Hi ToBeBlessed, we are just referred to as "Calvinists". We don't worship the man or his theology (as some seem to think we do), it just seems to us the best systematic representation of what the Bible teaches, especially in the area of soteriology.

The five "points" are known as TULIP, which is an acrostic that stands for:

T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints​

It does take a small amount of explanation to understand TULIP properly and if you'd like me to, I would be happy to tell you what we mean by each "petal" in a little more detail.

I should also tell you that it was Calvin's protégés, not Calvin himself, who first established the five points you see above and founded what is known today as "Calvinism" (it is also often referred to as "Reformed Theology").

Yours and His,
David

 

[lori milne]

Hi ToBeBlessed, we are just referred to as "Calvinists". We don't worship the man or his theology (as some seem to think we do), it just seems to us the best systematic representation of what the Bible teaches, especially in the area of soteriology. The five "points" are known as TULIP, which is an acrostic that stands for: T = Total Depravity U = Unconditional Election L = Limited Atonement I = Irresistible Grace P = Perseverance of the Saints It does take a small amount of explanation to understand TULIP properly and if you'd like me to, I would be happy to tell you what we mean by each "petal" in a little more detail. I should also tell you that it was Calvin's protégés, not Calvin himself, who first established the five points you see above and founded what is known today as "Calvinism" (it is also often referred to as "Reformed Theology"). Yours and His, David

It was me who started this thread and me who is refuting the once saved always saves theory / OSAS
Being that it stemmed from Calvin
Is another moment in our discussion
I would love to go over TULIP
as I've learned a lot about the theory

In Jesus name
Only
Humbly your sister in Christ

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Lori, I have to run right now, but I'll be back and write a short definition of each point. Then we can go on from there ..

--David

 

[South Bound]

My theology is a personal search for truth
Not false ideas that aren't even in the. Bible!!

I base all my believes only on jesus direct teachings and Matt mark luke John Peter
Paul i like to use but I notice some OSAS believers twisting or misinterpreting a lot of it!
Which compared to jesus teaching should be clear!! Amen!!

Why are all of jesus teachings being overlooked!
Is it because people don't want to be judged condemned they want there cake and to eat it to !
Jesus speaks clearly about repenting why is it something not being practiced??

You seem to misunderstand the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

You talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy.

That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him.

If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands.

I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away.

To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law!

Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security.

Let's start with the most obvious:

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So, here we have three promises:

a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him.

b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him

That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation?

c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day.

Does God now break His promises?

And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance...

Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church.

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ?

Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal.

Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation?

1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true.

Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son?

Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him?

John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation?

Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work?

John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved?

Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed?

1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it?

It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness.

Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

 

[lori milne]

You seem to misunderstand the Biblical doctrine of eternal security. You talk about the Biblical doctrine of eternal security as if it's something we earn after salvation by proving ourselves worthy. That's not the case at all. We're not saved by our own righteousness, but by Christ's righteousness, and our salvation is not kept by our faithfulness, but by Christ's faithfulness and ability to keep that which the Father has given Him. If one is born again, then his salvation is secure in Christ's hands. I would encourage you to think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting the Biblical doctrine of eternal security for a moment. If we could really lose our salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 says that if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. That means that it would only take one sin to fall away. To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, you must believe that, if one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, as well. Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts. Under the Old Covenant, under the law, the Israelites couldn't murder. We can't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We can't even have a lustful thought. If you're right, then we lose our salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did under the law! Is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? But, back to your question, there are a host of verses that support the Biblical doctrine of eternal security. Let's start with the most obvious: So, here we have three promises: a) That Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him. b) That Jesus will not cast out any who come to Him That precludes both the sinner losing his salvation and Jesus taking his salvation away. So what means is left to lose salvation? c) That God has already promised they would be raised on the last day. Does God now break His promises? And that's only the beginning. There is plenty of evidence for the Biblical doctrine of eternal security after that. For instance... Romans 8:29-30 says that God predestined those whom He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. If we can lose our salvation and, thus, our conformity to the image of Christ, then does this mean that God's foreknowledge is wrong? That's open theism, which has historically been condemned as heresy by the Church. Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? How is that consistent with the Biblical description of Christ? Colossians 3:1-4 says that if we have been saved, we will appear with Christ in glory? It doesn't say "you might appear with Christ in glory, if you don't lose your salvation". It says "you will appear with Christ in glory". Done deal. Philippians 1:6 says that if Christ has begun a good work in us, that He will finish it. How does He keep that promise to finish the good work He began in you, if you can lose your salvation? 1 Peter 1:23 tells us that when we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed? If we can lose our salvation, then this seed is corruptible and that promise is not true. Like Colossians 3:1-4, 1 John 3:2 says that we are sons of God now and that when Christ appears, we will be like Him. There is no qualifier. There is no "...if we don't lose our salvation". And if we're sons of God, when has God ever disowned a son? Titus 1:2 says that God has promised us eternal life and that He never breaks a promise. In John 10:27-29, Jesus promises us that He has given us eternal life, that we will never perish, and that we are not only in His hands, but in the Father's hands. How is Jesus' promise in John 10:27-28 consistent with the idea that we can lose our salvation? Is Jesus really incompetent to keep those whom the Father has given Him? John 5:24 says that if we are saved, we will not come into condemnation but will have eternal life? How can Jesus promise that we will not come into condemnation if He knows we can lose our salvation? Romans 11:6 tells us that salvation is not by works. If we cannot be saved by works, then how can we lose our salvation by works? Furthermore, why isn't keeping our salvation a work? John 14:16-17 tells us that when we are saved, the Holy Spirit indwells us forever. How can the Holy Spirit indwell in us forever if we lose our salvation? Since when does the Holy Spirit dwell in the unsaved? Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 tells us that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. If we lose our salvation, then how can we still claim to be sealed? 1 Peter 1:4 says that our salvation is "imperishable, undefiled, and unfading". If our salvation is imperishable, how can we lose it? If our salvation is promised by God to be undefiled, how can we defile it? It's been my experience that where you find a denial of the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security, just scratch the surface and you'll find a belief in works-righteousness. Again, I ask, is this really the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law?

In reply I'll start here but start it with give me the ears Lord to understand ! Amen Every verse you've given me states Christ gives us the ability to not fall away! Amen truly he does '

If you read free from sin and turn it into free to sin then this is an assumed interpolation. Let's add THE FAITH portion and then weigh out the versus! why did jesus speak of faith. Faith that in him we can turn from sin. Faith in what if not that? In him maybe .ok then In him but for what? to do what? He gives us something not just believing in him only. That's an empty reason to follow something. he is and was the word so we are believing in a promise. In the word. The law. The punishment. The judgements. His love. All of the word.

If you see your view of Jesus saving us because we are sinners and so we can live in sin and be COVARD this is an assumed understanding based off a multiple meaning verses!

If your assumed meaning is correct Then what don't you see in a clear and sound verse about not wanting to sin because jesus fills us with water so we may not be thirsty!
And how is it weighed against your assumed meaning. Meaning what does your feeling say about his clear statement that you will thirst no more !!


Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. ([bless and do not curse]John‬ [bless and do not curse]4‬:[bless and do not curse]13-14‬ KJV)

Another one you gave me

Jude 24 says that Christ is able to keep us from falling? If we can lose our salvation, does this mean that Christ is able to keep us from falling, but is merely unwilling? Christ is just able to keep us from falling by believing we can turn from evil and make a Godly choice!

How is that so hard to believe if he says it to be Peter walked on water why!???

Peter believed he couldn't and jesus said he could so did he! We can do all things in Christ that's even being sin free! Are you saying in Christ we can't be sin free if his word says we can ??

Does that mean I never sinned no. He died for me to be spot free ! So then why go back to our sins, to perdition, to our vomit like a dog!? Can you then say or tell me no man through Christ can live sin free!

I sin and its a reactive sin or impulsive sin like when I get mad or sad
But to choose to sin!

How can you say your a Christian and intentionally lie! You have a choice why then choice the one with the worser of the consequences! Every sin comes with a cost that's Worse by far then just being honest!
Now your a lier
Not a hero
Not a protector
Not a peace maker
A lier is that worth it to you
If so your a sinner and refuse to repent and now in iniquity!
Jesus said clearly I never new you, you workers of iniquity