Refuting OSAS in jesus name

Marvin Knox · Apr 23, 2015

actionsub said:
Not so much a paradox per se in my reading, but the same reality from two perspectives. I do believe indeed that our security and our salvation rests solely in Christ; thus I can affirm the verses that teach eternal security with reservations.

The reason I say "with reservations" is because of those passages which do suggest that a person can turn from Christ. I do not go so far as to hold a sort of "one strike and you're out" stance, but there is a sense in which a person can persist in unrepented sin for so long that that person has indeed turned away from Christ.

Affirming both realities at the same time creates a tension in understanding; at the same time both are true. I have also been told by Reformed believers that there is a difference between what is popularly known as OSAS and the Reformed tenet of the "perseverance of the saints". The latter, according to these people, is that the true believer will authenticate his or her belief by persevering in holiness. However, it is also God that enables us to persevere.

The bottom line is that we are always called upon to walk out our salvation in union with Christ. It is nothing we do on our own.

A paradox is an "apparent" contradiction. It is not a true contradiction.

One scripture says that salvation is a gift from God. Another says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. I'm sure you see those two and believe them.

At the same time you, as you say, we admittedly see scriptures that seem to clearly show that under certain circumstances the gift of salvation can be taken back.

This is an apparent contradiction. That's a paradox. It is much like the paradox of the Trinity. It is much like the paradox of predestination vs. free will.

We don't believe that there are contradictions in the Word of God of course.

Therefore the only thing we can do is believe all of the scriptures and pray for wisdom as we continue to study.

I have come to understand the Trinity enough to be comfortable with believing it. I have done the same with predestination vs. free will. I have done so with this doctrine as well.

If I had simply chosen one side of the paradox and associated with only people who had also gathered into that group - I never would have come to the truth (as I believe I have).

I'm sure we'll both continue to study and pray for wisdom. But what we must not do is "pick sides" in the apparent contradiction and become dogmatic. That shuts off all or at least some of the avenues the Holy Spirit can use to further enlighten us (give us wisdom) IMO.

actionsub · Apr 23, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
A paradox is an "apparent" contradiction. It is not a true contradiction.

I'm sure we'll both continue to study and pray for wisdom. But what we must not do is "pick sides" in the apparent contradiction and become dogmatic. That shuts off all or at least some of the avenues the Holy Spirit can use to further enlighten us (give us wisdom) IMO.

We agree here, Marvin. I think I was getting hung up on words. Thanks for the clarification on the meaning of "paradox".

lori milne · Apr 23, 2015

To Marvin
I'm sorry you feel that way ? But just to clear the air I don't see the contradiction on the bible I see it with the theology.
The thread is completely refuting OSAS because it's a conflict and it shows a paradox or contradict My readings of all the verses you give just show Gods faithfulness and his expectation of his plan for us. I don't understand why that is in any way offensive to any one :-/

nobdysfool · Apr 23, 2015

Just to be clear, this thread has not refuted nor is it refuting OSAS, especially not the version that is being claimed to be OSAS. As has been pointed out, those of us who believe in Eternal Security (which is a much better name for what we really do believe), do not like the acronym of OSAS, for the reasons stated. It does not accurately describe what we believe.

It is obvious that Lori is getting bad information about what we believe, and she is spending her time railing against that bad information, which is really nothing more than setting fire to a straw man i.e. a false representation of what we believe. As such it accomplishes nothing of any real worth, it is just a "show" of things. If Lori truly wants to know correctly, and learn correctly, she needs to stop attacking, and start listening. Several of us have tried to steer the discussion into a more thoughtful and didactic direction, but the same tired old false statements keep coming back.

I have poured enough into this discussion, and challenged her enough, that if she really wanted to learn, the tone and content of the thread would have changed, but so far, it has not.

The old saying is, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". I think that applies here.

And no, I am not calling Lori a horse, just in case anyone might think to make a false accusation to that effect.

EmSw · Apr 23, 2015

lori milne said:
To Marvin
I'm sorry you feel that way ? But just to clear the air I don't see the contradiction on the bible I see it with the theology.
The thread is completely refuting OSAS because it's a conflict and it shows a paradox or contradict My readings of all the verses you give just show Gods faithfulness and his expectation of his plan for us. I don't understand why that is in any way offensive to any one :-/

One paradox I am seeing here involves the 'eternal decree' of God, which some espouse. What I don't understand is why those who hold to this belief, keep trying to change Lori's mind about eternal security when God has 'ordained' she believes as she does.

If God has 'determined' to show Lori His truth in the way He has, why would some want to change this? Why not accept God's 'decree' in her life? If she believes the way she does, remember, this was God's plan way before any of us came onto the scene.

Either you believe in 'eternal predestination' or you don't. If this is God's 'decree' for her life, I say support her 100%. Did God make a mistake in His 'decree' for Lori, and you are here to fix it?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 23, 2015

lori milne said:
I can't I'm on a cell app :/

That certainly will limit any helpful dialogue.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 23, 2015

lori milne said:
To free grace2

All the verses I have given all mean what they say.

Of course. But it is clear to me that you don't understand what they mean.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that? My Point again" is its a clear and direct contradiction to your believe Of not being able to loose ones salvation. My request is simple Can you prove to me they aren't a contradiction.

I have no idea yet as to what you view as a contradiction. Could you please be as clear as possible to explain what it is that you see as a contradiction?

I gave you passages from 4 different NT books that clearly prove eternal security. But your previous post indicated that you aren't able to view past posts. So this discussion has been only 1-way.

EmSw · Apr 23, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course. But it is clear to me that you don't understand what they mean.

I have no idea yet as to what you view as a contradiction. Could you please be as clear as possible to explain what it is that you see as a contradiction?

I gave you passages from 4 different NT books that clearly prove eternal security. But your previous post indicated that you aren't able to view past posts. So this discussion has been only 1-way.

FG2, since you ardently believe in 'eternal security', why are trying to change Lori's mind?

Are you afraid she won't be saved if she believes the way she does?

Is she in danger of hell for her beliefs?

Lori has said she believes, so that should be enough for you. Does it matter what one believes if they are eternally secure?

What in the world could Lori believe that would threaten her 'eternal security'?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 23, 2015

EmSw said:
FG2, since you ardently believe in 'eternal security', why are trying to change Lori's mind?

She claims to be searching for truth. I've given her plenty of truth that proves eternal security. But she's ignored all of them, leading me to believe that her claim isn't sincere.

Are you afraid she won't be saved if she believes the way she does?

Is she in danger of hell for her beliefs?

Anyone who has placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation IS saved. But when one claims they are searching for the truth, I believe they deserve the truth. But, when one ignores the truth they claim they are searching for, well, the rest of the discussion seems to be a waste of time.

Lori has said she believes, so that should be enough for you. Does it matter what one believes if they are eternally secure?

Of course it matters. Your question is like saying truth doesn't matter. Well, does it?

What in the world could Lori believe that would threaten her 'eternal security'?

I'm not in the least concerned about her security. I am concerned that her views may be accepted by other seeking believers, by which they will have been taught false doctrine. Maybe that isn't a big deal to some, but it is to me.

How helpful would it be if most believers held to false doctrines? Would that be a problem or not?

EmSw · Apr 23, 2015

FreeGrace2 said:
She claims to be searching for truth. I've given her plenty of truth that proves eternal security. But she's ignored all of them, leading me to believe that her claim isn't sincere.

And what if she gave you plenty of truth which doesn't prove eternal security? Is her security threatened by such actions?

FreeGrace2 said:
Anyone who has placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation IS saved. But when one claims they are searching for the truth, I believe they deserve the truth. But, when one ignores the truth they claim they are searching for, well, the rest of the discussion seems to be a waste of time.

Why aren't you rejoicing she is saved and can't lose it, instead of worrying about what she believes?

FreeGrace2 said:
Of course it matters. Your question is like saying truth doesn't matter. Well, does it?

Why should it matter what one believes as long as they have eternal security?

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm not in the least concerned about her security. I am concerned that her views may be accepted by other seeking believers, by which they will have been taught false doctrine. Maybe that isn't a big deal to some, but it is to me.

Maybe some here are concerned about your teachings that others might see.

FreeGrace2 said:
How helpful would it be if most believers held to false doctrines? Would that be a problem or not?

According to your beliefs, it wouldn't be a problem. A person can believe what they want and do what they want as long as they placed their faith in Jesus.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 23, 2015

EmSw said:
And what if she gave you plenty of truth which doesn't prove eternal security?

I've sure given her enough opportunity to do so, and she hasn't yet. In fact, no one CAN provide any Scripture that tells us plainly that a believer can lose their salvation, or their eternal security.

Is her security threatened by such actions?

If her security could be threatened by anything, then she would be right. But one who has believed in Christ for eternal life will go to heaven, because believers are held in God's hand, and Jesus SAID that "no one", which means "not any person" can snatch them out of His hand. That's pretty powerful. In fact, the promise even includes the believer him/her self, since "no one" actually refers to "no person". So if both of you consider yourselves to be persons, as I consider both of you, then even yourselves cannot remove yourself from God's secure hand.

Why aren't you rejoicing she is saved and can't lose it, instead of worrying about what she believes?

Again, she claimed to be searching for truth. That's what I'm concerned about; why she hasn't responded to the truth that she's been given.

Why should it matter what one believes as long as they have eternal security?

These repeated questions remind me of the time when Peter asked Jesus about John, and Jesus responded with this: "what is it to you?"

Why are you so interested in what concerns me? iow, is there some agenda behind this repeated question?

Maybe some here are concerned about your teachings that others might see.

Ah, the agenda. What would "they" be concerned about, specifically?

According to your beliefs, it wouldn't be a problem. A person can believe what they want and do what they want as long as they placed their faith in Jesus.

Oh, no, you're mistaken. There would be huge problems for the believer to hold to false doctrines. Only not regarding the security of their salvation.

I noticed there was no answers to any of my questions to your previous post to me; just more nosy questions.

Are my questions going to be answered, or are you not really looking for answers?

Brother Chris · Apr 23, 2015

Lori, I want to ask you something, and I would like the rest of us to wait for her answer before responding to anyone else.

Lori, if I was an unsaved sinner, in desperate need of salvation and I wanted to get right with God, and I wanted to know for sure that when I die, I would go to heaven, what would you say to me?

Marvin Knox · Apr 23, 2015

EmSw said:
One paradox I am seeing here involves the 'eternal decree' of God, which some espouse. What I don't understand is why those who hold to this belief, keep trying to change Lori's mind about eternal security when God has 'ordained' she believes as she does.
If God has 'determined' to show Lori His truth in the way He has, why would some want to change this? Why not accept God's 'decree' in her life? If she believes the way she does, remember, this was God's plan way before any of us came onto the scene.
Either you believe in 'eternal predestination' or you don't. If this is God's 'decree' for her life, I say support her 100%. Did God make a mistake in His 'decree' for Lori, and you are here to fix it?

As FreeGrace2 rightly pointed out Ah, the agenda.

I know from past interaction with you that in this post your agenda is against me in particular.

I cant help but wonder at just how ridiculous you sound.

Reformed believers know that God predestined how many days I would live. I still look both ways before crossing the street.

If I really thought that you misunderstand what we believe Id continue to enlighten you. But I know by now that you do and that you simply continue to spout the same old untruths. This post is more for people who might be reading along than for you.

The answer to the questions in this post is that I dont know if she will change her views or not. It is immensely important that she does however. In order to obey the Lord I must at least try to lead her to truth.

Jesus, Paul and I believe in election as well. That doesnt stop us from evangelizing.

You, sir, are a piece of work.

I wont comment on the posts below because they were not addressed to me.

I reprint them here so that no one can possibly miss just how ridiculous youve become.

EmSw said:
FG2, since you ardently believe in 'eternal security', why are trying to change Lori's mind?
Are you afraid she won't be saved if she believes the way she does?
Is she in danger of hell for her beliefs?
Lori has said she believes, so that should be enough for you. Does it matter what one believes if they are eternally secure?
What in the world could Lori believe that would threaten her 'eternal security'?

EmSw said:
And what if she gave you plenty of truth which doesn't prove eternal security? Is her security threatened by such actions?
Why aren't you rejoicing she is saved and can't lose it, instead of worrying about what she believes?
Why should it matter what one believes as long as they have eternal security?
Maybe some here are concerned about your teachings that others might see.
According to your beliefs, it wouldn't be a problem. A person can believe what they want and do what they want as long as they placed their faith in Jesus.

ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!

lori milne · Apr 23, 2015

Brother Chris said:
Lori, I want to ask you something, and I would like the rest of us to wait for her answer before responding to anyone else. Lori, if I was an unsaved sinner, in desperate need of salvation and I wanted to get right with God, and I wanted to know for sure that when I die, I would go to heaven, what would you say to me?

I would ask him if he knows who God or jesus is
And if he didn't I would tell him,
Offer him to confess any sins in his heart/ privately to be cleansed from all sin" tell him they were forgiven.
Tell him or give him a bible ,
Give him a true account and understanding of the history and life of GOD & Jesus Christ.
Not just the blanket alter call.
then pray the sinners pray.

My grandpa was a doctor he would offer to heal the sick and minister all the time just go to random family's and teach the words of God

My strengths and CORE believes come for the God of Abraham Jacob and Isaac.

lori milne · Apr 23, 2015

Here's a basic idea if having a core believe

If you are raising a child and he disobeys
Do you spank him?
Or don't you?

Well if you have a core believe in the word of God or a "main theme" of it steaming in your life you'll always no the answer

It's yes
And that means you

1. Believe in the fear of God
2. And believe in the words of God

You can't be OSAS and have the fear of God
It doesn't balance out with your theology!

And if you think the new covenant took that out your wrong thinking the bible changed its CORE
He was and is and will always be the same!
again every thing the bible speaks of IS ONE BASIC CORE BEILEF from OT to NT

And that is called your faith true Faith
With out true faith you'll never be righteous
If your not righteous you'll always make unrighteous choices God won't look at you and can't when your a sinner. And hence you have no grace " favor in GODS eyes
Isaiah 59 14-20

Jesus died for all sins " past rented from,
Doesn't mean you can't ask foe forgiveness you can and will!
The only diffidence is you are accountable for ALL un repented sins
OSAS is not and won't ever be proven because of the clear paradox

I was trying to see if anyone would like to show me what they believe about the verse that spicificly contradict the OSAS CALV hyper grace believes
Because I could be wrong and truly am searching for that in a healthy and fair manner

Amen

nobdysfool · Apr 23, 2015

Lori, it is obvious now that you have an agenda, and it is not learning the truth. This statement of yours

lori said:
I was trying to see if anyone would like to show me what they believe about the verse that spicificly contradict the OSAS CALV hyper grace believes Because I could be wrong and truly am searching for that in a healthy and fair manner

is a contradiction. You have already decided that OSAS, Calvinism, and "hyper grace" (whatever that is) is wrong, and you will not countenance any contradiction to those already-decided-on beliefs. The problem, is, you clearly do NOT understand any of them correctly. You have been fed a pack of lies, and you don't have the discernment to realize this.

Because of your inability to let of of those wrong beliefs, you cannot and will not accept what we say to you to help you see the truth. In short, you have made yourself unteachable. You didn't come here to learn the truth, you came here thinking you were going to correct us. You have failed in that. And you will continue to fail in that until you allow the Lord to enlighten you. That is something that only you can do, by letting go of what you think you know, and asking the Lord to give you wisdom and understanding, which He will do if you ask, believing, and let go of the false theology you have been throwing around in here.

Brother Chris · Apr 23, 2015

lori milne said:
I would ask him if he knows who God or jesus is
And if he didn't I would tell him,
Offer him to confess any sins in his heart/ privately to be cleansed from all sin" tell him they were forgiven.
Tell him or give him a bible ,
Give him a true account and understanding of the history and life of GOD & Jesus Christ.
Not just the blanket alter call.
then pray the sinners pray.

My grandpa was a doctor he would offer to heal the sick and minister all the time just go to random family's and teach the words of God

My strengths and CORE believes come for the God of Abraham Jacob and Isaac.

Where in your gospel is he guaranteed eternal life?

lori milne · Apr 23, 2015

Brother Chris said:
Where in your gospel is he guaranteed eternal life?

He is not promised no one is

If Your faith will heal you so then your faith will save you
But that is to truly believe in all of Gods words

lori milne · Apr 23, 2015

Brother Chris said:
Where in your gospel is he guaranteed eternal life?

Did judas have eternal security ?

EmSw · Apr 23, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
As FreeGrace2 rightly pointed out Ah, the agenda.

I know from past interaction with you that in this post your agenda is against me in particular.

Marvin, I have nothing against you. As I believe in free will to choose how one believes, you have chosen your beliefs, and I accept your choices.

Marvin Knox said:
I cant help but wonder at just how ridiculous you sound.

What is it with God's decree with Lori that you don't like? Why are you so desperately trying to change it? Can she defy God's decree and do as you wish?

Marvin Knox said:
Reformed believers know that God predestined how many days I would live. I still look both ways before crossing the street.

The Non-Reformed believes God knows how many days everyone lives, even without God predestining them.

Marvin Knox said:
If I really thought that you misunderstand what we believe Id continue to enlighten you. But I know by now that you do and that you simply continue to spout the same old untruths. This post is more for people who might be reading along than for you.

Why can't I choose to believe as I see in the Bible? How do truths in the Bible suddenly become untruths? Everyone can read and understand these words of Jesus - '...to inherit eternal life, keep the commandments.' If that is an untruth to you, then what can I say?

Marvin Knox said:
The answer to the questions in this post is that I dont know if she will change her views or not. It is immensely important that she does however. In order to obey the Lord I must at least try to lead her to truth.

Does it really matter if she changes her views or not? Isn't the most important thing to the Reformed is that God has decreed everything that happens, from the largest to the smallest?

Plus, how will she change if it is God's eternal decree for her not to?

Marvin Knox said:
Jesus, Paul and I believe in election as well. That doesnt stop us from evangelizing.

Election is determined according to man's ways and deeds; this is how God deals with man.

Marvin Knox said:
You, sir, are a piece of work.

Despite your opinion, God says I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I think I will stick with His view of me.

Marvin Knox said:
I wont comment on the posts below because they were not addressed to me.

I reprint them here so that no one can possibly miss just how ridiculous youve become.

ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!

Marvin, Marvin, I understand your frustration. I am the total antithesis of your beliefs. You say the reprobate cannot love or know God, yet I do. You say the reprobate has no desire for spiritual things, yet I do. Everything you say of the reprobate, I am the opposite.

That is why it is so difficult to understand me. I do not adhere to your beliefs of of the unbeliever.

Refuting OSAS in jesus name

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