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Reformed versus Calvinist

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BereanTodd

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Sorry, but you are wrong.


Lutherans do NOT hold to transubstantiation as does the RCC. Consubstantiation is that Jesus is in the bread and wine, that is what consubstantiation is. It is the Lutheran belief.



Jesus also said "IAM the vine" but I don't think he is literally a plant. He also said "IAM the door" but I don't think that he is either made out of wood nor does he have a handle on him. He said "IAM the bread of life" but I do not expect him to be made of flower or contain leaven.

The fact is that there is symbollic speach that is used at times. The question is whether Jesus' words at the Last Supper were symbollic or not. And that is where our disagreement lies ...
 
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BereanTodd

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I know this is leading off the OP but I am curious...

Arent most protestant denominations actually Reformed, only not as rigid?

Reformed has nothing to do with being rigid. It is a specific theological framework for understanding Scriptures. Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopals, Methodists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Charismatics ... none of us are reformed though some of the above may have been influenced on certain issues by reformed thought.

Reformed churches refers specifically to the Reformed movement from Switzerland and the Presbyterians who came out of them, begining in Scotland.
 
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KJVisTruth

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Oh I didnt mean "being" rigid, only in their theology. I should have used "firm" instead.

Presbyterians were what I was thinking of when I asked, and I wasnt sure about the other protestant denominations.

You all have been real helpful!
 
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BereanTodd

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No problem. Basically when you think about the Reformation you can think of four major lines of it that sprang up. You had Lutheranism and the Reformed movement that came up at basically the same time. Then you had later on the Anglican movement began in England. Then around the Reformed movement sprang up the anabaptists. From those four families come just about all of the denominations that we have today.

However, only those that draw direct descendancy from the Reformed movement would be described as Reformed Theologians.
 
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Robert_Barnes

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Excuse me, sir.

I have a Master's Degree in Lutheran Theology. I know better than wikipedia what Lutherans do and do not believe.

The Book of Concord (www.bookofconcord.org), which is the definitive belief statement of the Augsburg Evangelical Catholic Church (the Lutherans), NOWHERE uses that word.

I don't care HOW MANY websites you can find that repeat the misinformation: an untruth told 1,000,000 times is STILL an untruth.
 
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BereanTodd

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I really don't care what degrees you hold. If you do not hold to consubstantiation, then what do you hold? Please describe the differences in consubstantiation and the Lutheran view!

Transubstantiation (RCC) teaches that the bread and wine literally, physically becomes the flesh and blood of Christ.

Consubstantiation teaches that it remains bread and wine, but that Jesus is IN it, that Jesus is with in and under the elements. That is consubstantiation. How does it differ from Lutheran views, since you claim that it does ...
 
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Iosias

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Actually I am afraid it has certainly been questioned as to what Luther's view actually was. There was an interesting thread on it in a different forum: http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=18911http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=18911
 
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Robert_Barnes

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BOTH transubstantiation (TS) AND consubstantiation (CS) rest on an Aristotelian understanding of substans and accidens.

In TS, the substans of the bread and wine are said to change (into the substans of body and blood), while the accidens (the external features, such as look, smell and tatse) remain the same. (Your definition of TS above -- if not exactly incorrect -- shows a great misunderstanding of the doctrine.)

Lutherans rejected this explanation NOT because it is heretical or even unbiblical, but because it is unnecessary. Using a man-made philosophical system to unravel a biblical mystery is utter nonsense. These things of faith cannot be apprehended by our frail and weak minds.

Lutherans reject CS on two grounds:

CS suggests that the substans of the bread and wine are mixed and co-mingled with the body and the blood creating a new, uber substans. Lutherans DO NOT believe this. We believe that the bread is present, and that Christ's body is Present: but Lutherans do NOT believe that they are MIXED.

But aside from that, Lutherans reject CS for the same reason that they reject TS: no philosophical explanation is necessary. Lutherans simply believe what the Scriptures say.

From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article X, Of the Holy Supper:

This you may trust. Wikipedia, you may not trust.
 
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Robert_Barnes

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Selection from The Conservative Reformation and its Theology, by Charles Porterfield Krauth (1888), pp. 774-776.

N.B.:
when Krauth uses the word "Symbols" he is referring to the Lutheran Confessions (i.e., Book of Concord)
 
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Jadis40

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Methodists practice infant baptism, but based on the individual, we would also baptize someone who was not baptized as an infant.
 
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