reformed churches

[Imblessed]

I'm sure this has gotten hashed over more than once, but here goes.
what would it take to say your church is "reformed" and not just a church that teaches Calvinism?

1-infant baptism??
2-being a presbyterian church?
3-covenant theology taught?

I can't think of any other right now. I'm just trying to get a handle of whether I can claim "reformed" or just "calvinist"!

My church is a "community church", teaches the 5-points(well at least 4, I'm not sure about limited atonement yet), does baptism for believers only, is affiliated with the american baptist conference, ummm I'm not sure what else. They haven't been real specific about their "end time views" or whatnot. I think that frankly Tim doesn't think it's as important as other teachings. For the same reason he will not get into any political teachings either.

Could it be considered reformed?

 

[BBAS 64]

I'm sure this has gotten hashed over more than once, but here goes.
what would it take to say your church is "reformed" and not just a church that teaches Calvinism?

1-infant baptism??
2-being a presbyterian church?
3-covenant theology taught?

I can't think of any other right now. I'm just trying to get a handle of whether I can claim "reformed" or just "calvinist"!

My church is a "community church", teaches the 5-points(well at least 4, I'm not sure about limited atonement yet), does baptism for believers only, is affiliated with the american baptist conference, ummm I'm not sure what else. They haven't been real specific about their "end time views" or whatnot. I think that frankly Tim doesn't think it's as important as other teachings. For the same reason he will not get into any political teachings either.

Could it be considered reformed?

Good Day, Imblessed

I would think that the term reformed has much to do with the goverment of the church. I know that reformed use a "multi Elders" type of church. Which for the most part is forgein to most " baptist" churches where a single pastor is used.

So, one can be a reformed baptist church "elders" and not practice infant baptism. Like wise a baptisy church " single Pastor" can be "calvinistic" but not "reformed" and not practice infant baptism.

Hope that Helps,

Bill

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I think that the easiest way to get a handle on both the terms and the history is to look at Calvin's Institutes.

Book 3 is basically soteriology. Book 4 is basically ecclesiology.
Calvin's ecclesiology is basically:
paedobaptist, partly a result of his culture, partly a result of the battle with the Anabaptists, but mostly a result of covenantal theology.

Additionally, Calvin is very definitely presbyterian in church government, partly the result of lots of thinking about what was working in France and in Geneva, but mostly the result of his Biblical theology.

As history proceeded, the Reformed churches started out using Calvin as the primary grid to interpret Scriptures through, often using Institutes as a primary text for pastor training. The changes seem to have started in the topics in Book 4, those challenges to the issues in Book 3 were treated as heresy not legitimate differences between brethren. The biggest question comes with the dispensationalist attack on the basis of covenantal theology.

so Reformed churches seem to be able to disagree on several topics in eccelesiology without departing so far from Calvin that the majority label them as heretics.

i hope that helps a little.

...

 

[Imblessed]

Ok, I'm looking at the structure of the church as defined in my paperwork when I became a member:


according the my paperwork, here's the structure:

The management staff does day-to-day operations and subministries. basically directing the part-time staff as a whole. they oversee the part-time staff and their( the part-time staff) primary objective is to build and coordinate the volunteers in each of the different areas of ministry

The elders oversee the purpose, mission and values of the ministry. They evaluate the overall direction of the church and make sure the church remains biblically on course. Ultimate decision making capabilities rests with the elders.

I know the elders are voted in by members and have a 2 year(?) run as elder. At any given time there are several "elders in training".
Members also vote on the senior staff(management team), land purchase, and constitution changes.

So, both of our pastors are part of the management team, and we also have 4 others-one for Magnification(music,skits, etc), one for membership(self explanatory), one for ministry(basically outreach, as well as the different volunteer areas that keep the church running and looking good--greeters, cleaners, security,etc), and our "under-18"(in charge of the kids from birth to 18-and everything that entails!). Our head pastor teaches the Sunday sermons and concentrates on missions(outside the church, church planting, the tsunami disaster, overseas missions etc) and our other pastor is in charge of Maturity(wednesday night church, "crossroads university classes" etc)
Each one of the management team is in charge of whatever part-timers are in each of the 6 different "fields" and those part-timers are in charge of the actual "running" of each ministry and the volunteers in each.

It works out pretty well, actually.

anyway, does that sound like reformed to you? I don't thinks it's a standard baptist way of running a church. The church actually re-organized the structure of the church over the last year or so after doing some in depth bible study on the subject. I don't think it started out that way(7 years ago when the church was planted). I rememeber Tim saying that they had made alot of structural changes lately, trying to be more biblical in the way they ran the church.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

its pretty typical congregationalist.

imho reformed can be either presbyterian or congregationalist.
(hungarian reformed is hierarchical)
soteriology is more important than eccelesiology

 

[Imblessed]

So it sounds like I can say that I am a reformed baptist Calvinist? And I can say that I go to a reformed church?

I just don't want to tell people I'm reformed if I can't be qualified as such. And since I'm a member of my church I'd like to align myself with what they consider they are, within reason. Does that make sense?

 

[Blackhawk]

So it sounds like I can say that I am a reformed baptist Calvinist? And I can say that I go to a reformed church?

I just don't want to tell people I'm reformed if I can't be qualified as such. And since I'm a member of my church I'd like to align myself with what they consider they are, within reason. Does that make sense?

Yes. I say that I am reformed even though I do not believe in infant baptism and my church has a congregationalist type of church governement. (I am Southern Baptist) I would agree with others who state that for this issue soteriology is more important than ecclessiology but I think what is even more important is one's doctrine of God. I think a reformed theologian and church stresses God and his sovereignty and providence. In other areas I think, as others do, that there is wiggle room under the label of reformed. So I can believe in believer's baptism and not every single statement of covenant theology (especially since padeobaptism is intertwined with it) and still be reformed. Oh and I do not agree with many of the reformed camp strict theology against images in worship and teaching and in some of the views that I hear about the revelation of God.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I'm sure this has gotten hashed over more than once, but here goes.
what would it take to say your church is "reformed" and not just a church that teaches Calvinism?

1-infant baptism??
2-being a presbyterian church?
3-covenant theology taught?

I can't think of any other right now. I'm just trying to get a handle of whether I can claim "reformed" or just "calvinist"!

My church is a "community church", teaches the 5-points(well at least 4, I'm not sure about limited atonement yet), does baptism for believers only, is affiliated with the american baptist conference, ummm I'm not sure what else. They haven't been real specific about their "end time views" or whatnot. I think that frankly Tim doesn't think it's as important as other teachings. For the same reason he will not get into any political teachings either.

Could it be considered reformed?

Hello Imblessed,


I would say that y'all are Calvinistic Baptists. Though I know my Calvinistic Baptist brethren like the term Reformed, and I do refer to them that way if they like, but I must say that I think it is inaccurate to refer to "Baptists" as Reformed.

By doing so we make term "Reformed" to be synonymous with the 5 points of Calvinism and that is not accurate. Reformed is a much broader term. It has much to do with Covenant theology and this involves paedo-baptism.


There have been Anglicans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Reformed Christians who have held to the Reformed faith. Calvinistic Baptists, while dear brothers in Christ, are not "Reformed" they are simply Calvinists.


I hope this does not upset my Calvinistic Baptist friends, but it is a mistake to make the term "Reformed" mean no more than the Five Points of Calvinism.

Reformed is more than 5 points.


In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Imblessed]

Hello Imblessed,


I would say that y'all are Calvinistic Baptists. Though I know my Calvinistic Baptist brethren like the term Reformed, and I do refer to them that way if they like, but I must say that I think it is inaccurate to refer to "Baptists" as Reformed.

By doing so we make term "Reformed" to be synonymous with the 5 points of Calvinism and that is not accurate. Reformed is a much broader term. It has much to do with Covenant theology and this involves paedo-baptism.


There have been Anglicans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Reformed Christians who have held to the Reformed faith. Calvinistic Baptists, while dear brothers in Christ, are not "Reformed" they are simply Calvinists.


I hope this does not upset my Calvinistic Baptist friends, but it is a mistake to make the term "Reformed" mean no more than the Five Points of Calvinism.

Reformed is more than 5 points.


In Christ,
Kenith

Kenith, this is exactly what I was getting at! Thank you. That has become what I understand also. THat Calvinism is the 5-points, and reformed theology is calvinism + other things.

It sounds like if my church went to infant baptism, they could be considered reformed though. Congretionalist in running the church, teaching the 5-points, emphasis on God's soviernity, but definately not pedobaptists.

Ok, I will just refer myself as a Calvinistic Baptist. It sounds like I would be right at home in a traditional reformed church though! I am not against infant baptism per se. I just haven't found enough compelling evidence to embrace it.

 

[AndOne]

I am not against infant baptism per se. I just haven't found enough compelling evidence to embrace it.

I'm Blessed -

I am looking into the issue hard and heavy right now. I too attend a "Reformed" Baptist church - but since having a baby (she is a month old tomm) - I have kind have had my hand forced. In other words I never would have given it a second glance until now - when it actually affects me.

My main reason for looking into this (other than the obvious) - is because everthing I have read and studied from the Reformers - Calvin, Luther, etc. - has been right on the money and has really changed my life. I feel like I owe it to these guys to diligently look into this aspect of their teaching - the only part of their teachings (along with the Westminster Confession of Faith and the others) that I disagree with.

I'll let you know what my final conclusion is. I haven't made it yet - but I'm almost convinced at this point in time.

 

[Bulldog]

[off topic]
Imblessed, you have a son named Calvin? Brilliant!
[/off topic]

 

[Imblessed]

I'm Blessed -

I am looking into the issue hard and heavy right now. I too attend a "Reformed" Baptist church - but since having a baby (she is a month old tomm) - I have kind have had my hand forced. In other words I never would have given it a second glance until now - when it actually affects me.

My main reason for looking into this (other than the obvious) - is because everthing I have read and studied from the Reformers - Calvin, Luther, etc. - has been right on the money and has really changed my life. I feel like I owe it to these guys to diligently look into this aspect of their teaching - the only part of their teachings (along with the Westminster Confession of Faith and the others) that I disagree with.

I'll let you know what my final conclusion is. I haven't made it yet - but I'm almost convinced at this point in time.

HI Behe's Boy!

I understand what you mean. When my boys were born, I was still a Quaker, so the idea of baptism of course never even crossed my mind, since I wasn't even baptised.

I've been wondering about it a little recently since I've pretty much dropped the whole dispensational type thinking for a more Covenental view and from what I understand, pedo-baptism goes right along with this. So, I probably should check it out more, but right now, I've been too busy with other studies...

One thing that our church does is have a "baby dedication" about 4 times a year or so, where parents dedicate in front of the church to raise their children in a christian household and gets affirmation from the congregation that the congregation will assist in this. Right now, I've of the mind that that is pretty much what an infant baptism is--a dedication by parents to raise the children to Godly values, and in the christian religion. Since I haven't studied it thoroughly, I could be completely wrong! But if I am right, then, for me at least, a verbal commitment by parents is as good as a baptism.

I would be very interested in your views, when you are ready to "announce" them. I'm just not up to reading all the info yet, and quite frankly, I don't think I can handle the threads in here about it because it's something people can get so passionate about that the "discussion" gets lost in the flaming!!

 

[Imblessed]

[off topic]
Imblessed, you have a son named Calvin? Brilliant!
[/off topic]

LOL, kind of funny huh? I named him after...dare I say it...Calvin and Hobbes !! ---before I even know John Calvin existed!!

 

[douglasdotyii]

Hello,
Great posts by all.
I'd consider a church "Reformed" if it adhereds to the major Reformed confessions and forms of unity such as the Canons of Dordt and the Belgic Confession.

Infant baptism was the last doctrine of Calvinism that I fully embraced as well. It came as a logical conclussion to my beliefs in the sovereignty of God and salvation by faith.

I would love to discuss this further but I have a crazy week ahead.

Blessings,
Doug