reformed Baptist

[OzSpen]

crimsonleaf,

Are you telling me that there are NO Classical/Reformed Arminian people, whether laity or pastors, attending Baptist churches in the UK?

Oz

Well whooopeedoo for Australia. I was talking about England.

Do I know everyone in all the Baptist churches in the UK? Well yes, as it happens I do. There's a bloke named Gilbert Chutney who goes to a Reformed Baptist church in the Lower Slaughters. He thinks he's Arminian, but as he also thinks he's the queen of Fulham I discounted him. (Hint - don't bother Googling him).

Wikipedia (at least I attribute my source in this instance) says simply:

Reformed Baptists (sometimes known as Calvinistic Baptists[1]) are Baptists that hold to a Calvinist soteriology.[2] They can trace their history through the early modern Particular Baptists of England. The first Reformed Baptist church was formed in the 1630s.[1] The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith was written along Reformed Baptist lines.[1]

I genuinely know of no Reformed Baptist Church over here which differs from the above. But then, I've said that once already. There may be the odd one or two who have snuck in with their own deviation from the norm, but then we have people here who don't believe you need to follow Jesus Christ to be a Christian...

 

[OzSpen]

Do I know everyone in all the Baptist churches in the UK? Well yes, as it happens I do. There's a bloke named Gilbert Chutney who goes to a Reformed Baptist church in the Lower Slaughters. He thinks he's Arminian, but as he also thinks he's the queen of Fulham I discounted him. (Hint - don't bother Googling him).

You have got to be joking!

According to these statistics from 2010, there are approximately 135,000 Baptists in the UK and you dare to try to convince me that you know every one of them!

These are the stats:
Baptist Union Statistics [UK], 2010

Posted on February 11, 2011 by Clive Field

‘The latest returns show a mixed but broadly positive picture for churches in the Baptist Union of Great Britain (BUGB)’, according to the lead story in today’s issue of The Baptist Times.

Both church membership and (adult) baptisms, the traditional measures of Baptist strength, fell between 2009 and 2010, to stand at 135,536 (-1%) and 3,566 (-5%) respectively in 2010.

However, during the same period, the number of children attending Baptist churches rose by 2%, to reach 78,648, and of young people by 3½% to 39,602.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[crimsonleaf]

You have got to be joking!

According to these statistics from 2010, there are approximately 135,000 Baptists in the UK and you dare to try to convince me that you know every one of them!

These are the stats:
Baptist Union Statistics [UK], 2010

Posted on February 11, 2011 by Clive Field

‘The latest returns show a mixed but broadly positive picture for churches in the Baptist Union of Great Britain (BUGB)’, according to the lead story in today’s issue of The Baptist Times.

Both church membership and (adult) baptisms, the traditional measures of Baptist strength, fell between 2009 and 2010, to stand at 135,536 (-1%) and 3,566 (-5%) respectively in 2010.

However, during the same period, the number of children attending Baptist churches rose by 2%, to reach 78,648, and of young people by 3½% to 39,602.

Sincerely, Oz

I can't believe that you took the Gilbert Chutney thing seriously. I gave him a stupid name, told you he thought he was Queen of Fulham AND told you NOT to Google him and you still believed he was real. Unbelievable. Really, unbelievable.

Reformed Baptist churches are independent churches and nothing to do with the Baptist Union. They are referring to their own people, not reformed Baptists.

Reformed Baptists usually (although not always) carry the name Grace in their title. Multi-churches like Sovereign Grace Ministry feature - they are New Calvinist. So I'll say it yet again, but slower this time - Reformed Baptist churches are independent and Calvinist in belief. They follow the 1689 London Baptist Confession, based upon the Westminster Confession, BUT one or two Arminians may have snuck in.

 

[OzSpen]

Reformed Baptist churches are independent churches and nothing to do with the Baptist Union. They are referring to their own people, not reformed Baptists.

Reformed Baptists usually (although not always) carry the name Grace in their title. Multi-churches like Sovereign Grace Ministry feature - they are New Calvinist. So I'll say it yet again, but slower this time - Reformed Baptist churches are independent and Calvinist in belief. They follow the 1689 London Baptist Confession, based upon the Westminster Confession, BUT one or two Arminians may have snuck in.

So you are speaking of a limited, small 'sect' among all the Baptists in Britain. You are not describing the theological beliefs of the bulk of British Baptists. Yours is a very limited group that is not representative of the beliefs of British Baptists.

It is obvious that your limited group would not include Reformation Arminians. However, Reformation Arminians could be represented in the larger Baptist groups in the UK.

I can't believe that you took the Gilbert Chutney thing seriously. I gave him a stupid name, told you he thought he was Queen of Fulham AND told you NOT to Google him and you still believed he was real. Unbelievable. Really, unbelievable.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you explain it in common English?

Oz

 

[crimsonleaf]

So you are speaking of a limited, small 'sect' among all the Baptists in Britain. You are not describing the theological beliefs of the bulk of British Baptists. Yours is a very limited group that is not representative of the beliefs of British Baptists.

It is obvious that your limited group would not include Reformation Arminians. However, Reformation Arminians could be represented in the larger Baptist groups in the UK.

The OP asked what is a Reformed Baptist (note the capitalisations). The answer is: Reformed Baptists are members of independent Calvinist churches. They do not belong to the Baptist Union, but neither are they a small "sect". Members have included John Bunyan and Charles Spurgeon. They subscribe to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.

Reformed Baptist Churches are ALWAYS Calvinist in belief.

 

[grandma dolittle]

Just for clarity, the line refers to actions performed BY the Amish, not against them.

It does not refer to the shootings of any Amish, adult or children.

But, because there are clearly people who are not gifted with the normal powers of comprehension, I'll change it. I hope you understand the next one.

Soryy for not understanding your joke, but that was a very grusome act and your joke seemed inappropriate. However, I like your grandfather... I resemble him!

 

[AndOne]

From these comments, it seems that you do not understand the historical background of Jacob Arminius, the Dutch Reformed theologian.

Who are the Remonstrants? They were Dutch Reformed Calvinists who were concerned about the Calvinistic emphasis that God forced his grace on sinners so that they could not resist it. While they have received the reputation of being Arminians, it is important to understand that they were Calvinists who objected to certain emphases of Calvinism.

Jacob Arminius was a Dutch Reformed theologian in the 16th century who was professor of theology at the University of Leiden (Leyden) and was Reformed until his dying day.

‘In 1588, the government of Amsterdam, Holland, Arminius' native country, called him home [from Geneva were he was studying under Calvin’s son-in-law, Beza] and appointed him preacher of the Dutch Reformed church there’ (About Christianity).

This biography of Jacob Arminius in CCEL states: 'Jacobus Arminius (aka Jacob Arminius, James Arminius, and his Dutch name Jacob Harmenszoon) was a Dutch theologian, best known as the founder of the anti-Calvinistic school in Reformed Protestant theology, thereby lending his name to a movement which resisted some of the tenets of Calvinism – Arminianism’ (CCEL).

Reformed is not the exclusive designation given to Calvinists. The history of Arminianism has its roots in Reformed theology. It is a Reformed position, growing out of the Reformation in the Dutch Reformed Church of the Netherlands.

Oz

...which was utterly rejected at Dort and the reason why they should drop the title. In my opinion anyway....

 

[crimsonleaf]

Soryy for not understanding your joke, but that was a very grusome act and your joke seemed inappropriate. However, I like your grandfather... I resemble him!

Well, the joke had been there for about three weeks and news of the incident hasn't filtered over the pond yet. Sorry to hear that you're in as bad a shape as my old fella was.

 

[grandma dolittle]

Well, the joke had been there for about three weeks and news of the incident hasn't filtered over the pond yet. Sorry to hear that you're in as bad a shape as my old fella was.

Awww, but we do have great memories to think about while getting cold in the water!

 

[OzSpen]

...which was utterly rejected at Dort and the reason why they should drop the title. In my opinion anyway....

That may be so, but it does not alter the fact that Jacob Arminius was a Reformed theologian until his dying day - a Dutch Reformed theologian.

Those of us of the Reformation Arminian tradition are Reformed, but not in the sense of the Synod of Dordt (1618-1619), as that was a Calvinistic Synod to address the rise of Reformed Arminianism.

Oz

 

[JM]

pogmonk,

You have given an incomplete understanding by giving only one part of the definition as Reformed Arminians also are part of the Baptist and Reformed tradition. See: 'What is Reformation Arminianism?'

Oz

The Arminian controversy was a 'Remonstrance' against the Reformation position. To remonstrate means to protest forcibly. This is just another site trying to garner respectability by linking their theology to the history of the Reformation.

jm

 

[OzSpen]

The Arminian controversy was a 'Remonstrance' against the Reformation position. To remonstrate means to protest forcibly. This is just another site trying to garner respectability by linking their theology to the history of the Reformation.

jm

The Remonstrants were after the death of Jacob Arminius who was a Dutch Reformed Theologian. The Remonstrance by Reformation Arminians was not against the Reformation position, but against TULIP Calvinism.

The facts are that Arminianism arose in the Reformation milieu and is a Reformation theology. The Society of Evangelical Arminians (SEA) addresses some of the issues of history and theology that are being promoted against Arminianism.

SEA is not a Society to garner respectability for Arminian theology and history, but to correct some of the misunderstandings which even you also seem to promote here.

Oz

 

[JM]

...against TULIP Calvinism.

Which was the Reformation position or else they wouldn't be able to protest it.

...Arminianism arose in the Reformation milieu and is a Reformation theology.

Which is it? Did the protest against the Reformation position happen during the 'milieu' or after the death of Arminius? You are contradicting yourself which is normal for Arminianism.

The Society of Evangelical Arminians (SEA) addresses some of the issues of history and theology that are being promoted against Arminianism.

Obviously.

SEA is not a Society to garner respectability for Arminian theology and history, but to correct some of the misunderstandings which even you also seem to promote here.

And what would be the purpose if not to garner respect for the theology of the Arminian protest?

jm

 

[OzSpen]

Which was the Reformation position or else they wouldn't be able to protest it.

Which is it? Did the protest against the Reformation position happen during the 'milieu' or after the death of Arminius? You are contradicting yourself which is normal for Arminianism.

Obviously.

And what would be the purpose if not to garner respect for the theology of the Arminian protest?

jm

I am not contradicting myself. The Reformation theology was being systematised during the Reformation era and Arminius and his followers found that some of the Reformation doctrines were not consistent with Scripture, hence the challenge of the Remonstrants. The Arminian doctrines of the Remonstrants are Reformation doctrines.

But you, as a Calvinist, do not want to acknowledge that Reformation Arminianism is promoting Reformation doctrines.

Oz

 

[JM]

...Arminius and his followers found that some of the Reformation doctrines...Hence the challenge of the Remonstrants.

That's right. Arminius found the existing Reformation doctrines incompatible with his humanism. He then went on to rationalize the confessional stance on doctrine.

The Arminian doctrines of the Remonstrants are Reformation doctrines.

You are making a leap in logic and that dog don't hunt. One could just as likely, using your logic, put forth anti-trinitarianism, plural wives (some of the Anabaptists had more then one wife) and all kinds of diviant doctrines and call them 'Reformation doctrines.'

But you, as a Calvinist, do not want to acknowledge that Reformation Arminianism is promoting Reformation doctrines.

Oz

History teaches us that Arminius was a late comer, after the Reformation doctrines were declared by the Dutch churches and his views were in protest to Reformation doctrine.

jm

 

[grandma dolittle]

Whoa guys! I did not mean to start a rebellion..... all I wanted was simple answers. I got them... so ease up and quit slinging at each other....

 

[JM]

Whoa guys! I did not mean to start a rebellion.....

So you are not an Arminian?
Monergism and Synergism - YouTube

 

[grandma dolittle]

So you are not an Arminian?
Monergism and Synergism - YouTube

I am a Christian; a believer; a follower of Christ; a child of God. Pure and simple and I care not for all the other doctrines... be it Calvinism or Arminian. I happen to belong to the small Free Will Baptist church I was raised... but I am not Baptist first!

 

[Steve Petersen]

see_the_truth.webs.com

Don't go to the link. Bad news.

This is spam. OP has posted the same link on several sub-forums here.

 

[OzSpen]

JM,

You are contradicting yourself which is normal for Arminianism.

We cannot have a rational conversation when you use this logical fallacy of hasty generalization. Logical fallacies prevent us from having reasonable and responsible communication. I urge you to quit using logical fallacies.

That's right. Arminius found the existing Reformation doctrines incompatible with his humanism. He then went on to rationalize the confessional stance on doctrine.

This is nothing more than a statement of your presuppositions. You provided zero evidence to support your claim.

One could just as likely, using your logic, put forth anti-trinitarianism, plural wives (some of the Anabaptists had more then one wife) and all kinds of diviant doctrines and call them 'Reformation doctrines.'

You are into logical fallacies again with a straw man logical fallacy. If you continue to do this to my posts, I will choose not to respond as your method prevents rational conversation.

History teaches us that Arminius was a late comer, after the Reformation doctrines were declared by the Dutch churches and his views were in protest to Reformation doctrine.

You have committed a red herring logical fallacy with that kind of statement.

Jacob Arminius lived from 1560-1609 and you accuse him of being a late comer. Arminius studied under Theodore Beza (1519-1605), Calvin’s son-in-law, who was a Calvinistic Reformation theologian in Geneva. Was he a late comer also? Let’s get the facts clear as you tend to want to muddy the theological waters. To his dying day, Arminius, was a Dutch Reformed theologian at the University of Leiden (Leyden) who challenged some of the Reformed understanding of various matters relating to salvation. Testing doctrine by Scripture should be a fundamental for those of us who love the Lord. That’s what Arminius did and he came to some different conclusions to other Reformers. Nevertheless, he was a Reformed theologian during the time of the Reformation.

You don't like his conclusions as they conflict with some of your views, so what do you do? You engage in the use of logical fallacies against me, but in doing so, you close down rational discussion about theological matters.

And what would be the purpose [of the Society of Evangelical Arminians (SEA)] if not to garner respect for the theology of the Arminian protest?

That's easy to answer. Your posts affirm some of the reasons for the SEA’s existence – to correct some of the misrepresentations of Arminians that you have presented in your responses to me.

Oz