Reform groups challenge U.S. bishops to create 'a church for our daughters'

[Fish and Bread]

Link:

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/gra...llenge-us-bishops-create-church-our-daughters

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

It amazes me that women who went through emancipation and fighting for equality, accept the lack of opportunities in the Church for promotion to higher positions.

 

[Paidiske]

And how would you suggest they go forward, with the thread of excommunication just for discussing the possibility...?

 

[pdudgeon]

Link:

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/gra...llenge-us-bishops-create-church-our-daughters

actually the conclusion formed from that data is erronious.
1. it doesn't take into account the increasing per centage of second and third generation women entering the work force,
2. nor does it account for the change in more and more businesses being open (and thus requiring workers) on Sunday--the traditional day of rest.
3. Finally, it fails to account for the economic necessity of families to provide not just one bread winner but two bread winners in order to survive economically.

what churches are increasingly doing to counter these draining trends is to offer additional service hours:
at mid week, Monday nights, Friday nights, and Saturday nights.
if it's possible for the reformed churches to do that, then they should be able to retain their existing members and find new members as well.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

And how would you suggest they go forward, with the threat of excommunication just for discussing the possibility...?

leave the Church

 

[Paidiske]

Oh, well, many do (or jump denominations, anyway). But not everyone will do that - often, from conversations I've had, for family reasons.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

But you get these exceptions to the rule like Mother Anjelica and Mother Theresa who created their own status, their own authority. But they had to earn it. It wasn't bestowed automatically by the Church.

 

[Fish and Bread]

But you get these exceptions to the rule like Mother Anjelica and Mother Theresa who created their own status, their own authority. But they had to earn it. It wasn't bestowed automatically by the Church.

They were not allowed to celebrate mass and consecrate communion as priests, nor were they bishops in control of a diocese, or Cardinals with the ability to elect the next Pope, or eligible to become the next Pope. Under the current rules, you or I are eligible to be elected Pope, and not even the most devout nun or female parish administrator is. That is a moral injustice and should be corrected.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

They were not allowed to celebrate mass and consecrate communion as priests, nor were they bishops in control of a diocese,

I'm not sure whether MA or MT actually wanted to be priests anyway. I think they were more interested in living the gospels than earthly promotions. Especially MT.
I'm not a big fan of MA by the way. Her view on Contemplative prayer being satanic created unnecessary fear and paranoia.

 

[Paidiske]

I think they were more interested in living the gospels than earthly promotions.

I don't want to pick on you, Paul, but I wanted to pick up on something that seems to be a repeated theme in these discussions.

And that's the idea that somehow "living the gospel" is at odds with seeking ordination, or that feeling called to ordination is inherently clericalism.

It's clericalism to believe that the clergy are more important than others, and to seek ordination because one wants to be important. It's not clericalism if you believe that we all - clergy and lay - have different and important parts to play in the church, and yet feel called to ordination. (Nobody would accuse a man of that, so why is that accusation flung at women?)

Nor is becoming ordained a "promotion." It's taking on a different role. For some of us it is right and for some it is not. Seeking ordination isn't different to "living the gospel." It's a different role in which to live the gospel.

I think it's important not to subtly tar women who do feel called to ordination in a way which implies that they get to that point out of arrogance, out of ambition, out of ego. (Some do, no doubt, and so do some men! But that's not a given for anybody with a sense of vocation).

 

[Fish and Bread]

I'm not sure whether MA or MT actually wanted to be priests anyway. I think they were more interested in living the gospels than earthly promotions. Especially MT.
I'm not a big fan of MA by the way. Her view on Contemplative prayer being satanic created unnecessary fear and paranoia.

Okay, Paul, but I wasn't talking about them specifically, really. You brought them up as an example of women who seemed to have achieved equal rights as men in the church after having "worked" for them, and I shot it down. Women will never be equal until they are ordained. And they should be ordained.

This has nothing to do with the two examples you mentioned in particular, neither of whom I am entirely a fan of. Mother Angelica was a right-winger who often confused politics with faith, and who's television network has had a very negative effect on the state of American Catholicism. Mother Theresa was in many respects a great women, and maybe even deserved the Sainthood bestowed upon her, she obviously sacrificed a lot to help the poor and the suffering, *but* Mother Theresa on several occasion rejected donations of pain pills and refused to offer any to even her terminal patients, who, even though many were Hindu, she told to unite their suffering to Christ. She was offered medicine to give them to relieve their pain and she turned it down because she didn't want them to have it. That is unacceptable to me. MT was probably a Saint in every other respect, but as someone who suffers from chronic pain, that story really sticks with me and will always effect my opinion of her, despite the fact that it in many other ways is overwhelmingly positive.

But this thread isn't about those two women. It's about why someone like Fantine who would make a wonderful priest or deacon isn't allowed to pursue her vocation if she feels she has one. Also, this thread isn't about Fantine in particular either. These are examples. They're all examples.

The point is that all women should be able to follow their callings and be treated on an equal basis with men in all facets of church life and vice-versa.

 

[Fish and Bread]

And, by the way, we all, both men and women, suffer from the lack of women in the episopate, the priesthood, and the deaconate. We lose the pastoral care they could provide, the access to the sacraments, their perspectives on spirituality from the pulpit, female role models for our children, etc.. We have a shortage of priests, and we're telling 52% of Catholics that they can't be priests simply because they have two X chromosomes instead of an X and a Y. Unacceptable.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I don't want to pick on you, Paul

Oops

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

We have a shortage of priests, and we're telling 52% of Catholics that they can't be priests

I know. Two of our parish priests are born overseas.

 

[tadoflamb]

Nor is becoming ordained a "promotion." It's taking on a different role. For some of us it is right and for some it is not. Seeking ordination isn't different to "living the gospel." It's a different role in which to live the gospel.

Nice post. As I learned in St.VdeP the line between the clergy and the laity is very fine and there isn't much difference between us.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Before I get too demonised on here, let me add my support for the concept, the proposal, the dream.....of having female women Catholic priests. Let's do it Pope Francis. Give it a trial run and if it doesn't work, we can always go back to square one.

 

[pdudgeon]

It amazes me that women who went through emancipation and fighting for equality, accept the lack of opportunities in the Church for promotion to higher positions.

very easy--you're talking about apples and oranges.
that women are advanced in the work place is due to civil governmental regulations.
that women are restricted (in some denominations) from becomming priests is due to clerical rules and regs.
thus apples and oranges.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

But I wonder about male catholic priests who wish to become Bishops. Are they approached to do the job or do they apply for the it?

 

[Paidiske]

Give it a trial run and if it doesn't work, we can always go back to square one.

Can I just say - please don't go for this approach. What do you expect the women who are ordained to do, if the church later decides to change its mind? Live in limbo - neither really lay nor really clergy?

Our lives and vocations aren't something to be taken out of the box, played with, and then put away again like a toy. Either ordain women, or don't. But to switch backwards and forwards isn't fair to those women, or to the congregations they will serve in the interim.

 

[pdudgeon]

Before I get too demonised on here, let me add my support for the concept, the proposal, the dream.....of having female women Catholic priests. Let's do it Pope Francis. Give it a trial run and if it doesn't work, we can always go back to square one.

not possible (for the Catholic Church)----Peter was a man.
Had Jesus wanted to create female apostles He could have easily done so.
there were women who also followed His ministry from the beginning,
yet He chose men for the job.
and when there was a vacant position in the ministry, the apostles chose a man.
obviously other churches have made different decisions, and that's fine for them. But it wouldn't be fine for the Catholic Church.